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Someone who knows more about this than me: given the significant negative reaction to the new MacBooks and the state of the mac lineup in general, is Apple like

Someone who knows more about this than me: given the significant negative reaction to the new MacBooks and the state of the mac lineup in general, is Apple likely to release a more suitable lineup in 2017 in response, or will they largely ignore the reaction?

conception 10y ago
I would be surprised if they didn't bump the procs to the new Intels next year, maybe add a 32Gb option. The look/features won't change for another three to five years.
- baddox 10y ago
  The 32GB option should come "for free" with the next Intel CPU generation (it's already out, but perhaps too late to make it in these Macs). I doubt Apple gets off on withholding that, it's just a limitation of the Intel chips they're using (correct me if my misunderstanding is wrong).
  - kozhevnikov 10y ago
    Only the mobile ones are out for ultraportables, desktop Kaby Lake that would go into a MackBook Pro expected in January 2017 plus another month for manufacturers to catch up.
    - renaudg 10y ago
      Pretty sure that only the iMac has desktop-class Intel CPUs, the Macbook Pro has, well, mobile CPUs.
      - kozhevnikov 10y ago
        13' ones use U (ultra-low power) processors, while 15' use QH (quad-core with high performance graphics). Same with Dell updating XPS 13 with Kaby Lake last month, but XPS 15 would have to wait till next year. http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_processor/intel-core-i7-macs.html http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_processor/intel-core-i7-m... https://superuser.com/questions/940168/meaning-of-intel-processor-suffixes https://superuser.com/questions/940168/meaning-of-intel-proc...
grzm 10y ago
There are already rumors to that effect: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/31/macbooks-2017-price-cuts-32gb-ram/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/31/macbooks-2017-price-cuts...
- drakenot 10y ago
  Looks like that rumor was bogus: "As pointed out by Ars Technica's Andrew Cunningham and others, Kuo's outline of chip possibilities does not match up with what is known from leaked Intel roadmaps. Intel is not planning MacBook Pro-class chips in the Cannonlake family at all, and Coffee Lake chips aren't arriving until 2018."
  - grzm 10y ago
    Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't seen the update at the bottom of the article.
revelation 10y ago
If the question is "will something better become available in the future" then the answer is always "yes".
- kgwgk 10y ago
  Unless they discontinue the product completely, of course. The answer is "no" in that case.
- kps 10y ago
  That's not a foregone conclusion with Apple — whether it's the XServe in 2011, the 17" MacBook Pro in 2012, the expandable Mac Pro in 2013… there's a wall, folks, and it's got writing on it.
- pier25 10y ago
  That's what I thought for 2 years before these new MBPs, and yet, here we are.
flyinglizard 10y ago
Apple is too arrogant to backtrack. They will just persist and wait for their demographics to adapt. People take so much crap from Apple, this would be no different.
- emehrkay 10y ago
  Back when they went to the unibody design there was a non-pro MacBook with the same design that was quickly replaced by the white shiny plastic one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook#Unibody_aluminum_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook#Unibody_aluminum_model). They have "corrected" stumbles/confusion in the MBP line in the past, I don't see why they wouldn't do it again.
- fatbird 10y ago
  Or they'll wait for the initial hissyfit to die down and see what actual sales are like, because if sales remain good, then they'll correctly reason that the "influencer" demographic's tantrums don't actually matter that much.
  - DonHopkins 10y ago
    But what if they have a high Klout score? How can their tantrums not matter?
josephg 10y ago
Based on past performance, Apple will update the iMac and Mac mini at some point next year. New laptop designs usually launch at a crazy premium (the MacBook air and 2015 MacBook were both super expensive at launch and came down in price with each update.) The MacBook Pro will almost certainly do the same. Whether the trash can Mac Pro gets an update is anyone's guess.
npunt 10y ago
It probably won't affect their future launches too much, but I do think they're going to take the feedback to heart. I imagine they've got the next iMac lined up, and the Mac Pro with Skylake-E / DDR4 and some 14nm AMD chips with HBM2. The iMac today is already a Skylake product, so the things the next one needs for feature-parity are TB3, USB-C, wireless keyboard with touchbar, and a new 14nm graphics chip. Wouldn't be surprised if it also got DDR4 as well. These may come earlier and/or cheaper due to user feedback. One change I expect that won't be driven much by feedback is price. The thing with releases like the new MBP is they typically command a price premium for a while and are then brought down in price. I'd imagine in a year the 13" MBPs will start at $1299 and 13" touchbar MBPs at $1499, roughly tracking with older prices. As the supply chain ramps up and gets more efficient, the cost of parts will drop. Hitting a target margin is the driving factor in this. Apple really does like new features (like the touch bar) to have broad availability in the lineup as quickly as possible, margins notwithstanding. Honestly, a lot of the pent up frustration is ultimately the fault of Intel - they didn't dedicate enough R&D on Broadwell to make it a proper next step, they botched the Skylake mobile launch with bad firmware (see: buggy Surface products earlier this year), they didn't include several features important to Apple including LPDDR4 support and DisplayPort 1.3 (necessitating MST Thunderbolt connection for 5k displays) not to mention HEVC encoding, their Core M chips are way overpriced which delays the transition of the MBAir to the Macbook chassis, etc. Not to mention AMD/Nvidia have been stuck on 28nm process for far too long (5 years) due to delays and quality of 20nm process, which necessitated the wait until 14nm parts were ready to do a joint launch with the 15" MBP. It was a confluence of bad timing from third party chip manufacturers. Also, when Apple launches something, they need them in super high volume. 13" MBPs are the #1 Mac by sales. Many other manufacturers can announce/launch flagship devices distinct from other products in their lineup with the latest chips, but wind up delaying them or just launching in very low volumes. Those manufacturers get the benefit of offering the latest & greatest, without the same level of demand to fulfill, nor level of scrutiny if delayed as would be with an Apple launch. So unless Apple has some exclusivity with Intel & AMD for new chips, they're necessarily going to be lagging a bit based solely on volume, and have to make up for it with exclusive features (like touchbar) and fit&finish (like new chassis). Apple invests a huge amount in controlling the chip manufacturing process in iDevices including redundancy in the supply chain and (I believe) building different variants on different process nodes in parallel, all in order to push the frontier as far out as possible on capability + volume. But they can't on Mac, which means they're going to be less focused on it. Nothing like owning 100% of success or failure for you to care about it. There's fair criticisms about USB-C but that's just how Apple does things; maybe they're 6-12mo early on it, but not much further. Same with chassis - they're dedicated to making each generation slightly smaller, and besides easing that constraint wouldn't have changed the current state of intel+amd chips, so they chose slightly lower performance now over larger chassis for years to come. I think they should have started with lower dongle prices; they clearly misread the frustration there. We'll see what the sales are and how long this storm lasts. MBPs are going to be the driving force in mainstreaming USB-C, at least that problem will go away in a relatively short period of time. Dongles will be a way of life for older devices, but so will drivers not being updated by manufacturers and other annoyances of aging tech.
matwood 10y ago
For me, more suitable means more RAM and lower price. I expect both next year because it is what they have done in the past. The port thing is completely overblown. It's a bit of short term pain for a better future. I will be confused if the next iPhone is not using the usb-c standard though. I feel like that is one thing Jobs would have not let happen. One thing he always seemed crazy about was the ecosystem and all things Apple working together.
rsync 10y ago
"Someone who knows more about this than me: given the significant negative reaction to the new MacBooks and the state of the mac lineup in general, is Apple likely to release a more suitable lineup in 2017 in response, or will they largely ignore the reaction?" My knee-jerk response is that no, they will pay no attention to this and will follow the current course with prejudice. The world of the expandable, versatile, technically minded mac pro (tower) gave way to the world of the dead-sexy-but-shackled wastebasket mac pro - and I don't see them going back on that. The one thing that gives me pause, however, is the evolution of the mac mini which changed form factor and became much, much easier to open (your thumbs, vs. weird special prybar tools that were very hard to use) and much, much easier to upgrade, customize and configure. So their track record is a disappointing one, but it's not a perfect one ... EDIT: I can't remember the details, but I seem to remember there was also some particular omission in macbook airs that they finally "fixed" ... when it was introduced we were told this omission was on purpose and was better for us, but then later they fixed it ... I just can't remember what it was ... something about the USB ports or ... ?
akhilcacharya 10y ago
Apple has backtracked before, but I don't think they'll backtrack completely. They'll probably put in an SD card slot or a magnetic USB-C for power or something like that.

conception 10y ago

I would be surprised if they didn't bump the procs to the new Intels next year, maybe add a 32Gb option. The look/features won't change for another three to five years.

baddox 10y ago
The 32GB option should come "for free" with the next Intel CPU generation (it's already out, but perhaps too late to make it in these Macs). I doubt Apple gets off on withholding that, it's just a limitation of the Intel chips they're using (correct me if my misunderstanding is wrong).
- kozhevnikov 10y ago
  Only the mobile ones are out for ultraportables, desktop Kaby Lake that would go into a MackBook Pro expected in January 2017 plus another month for manufacturers to catch up.
  - renaudg 10y ago
    Pretty sure that only the iMac has desktop-class Intel CPUs, the Macbook Pro has, well, mobile CPUs.
    - kozhevnikov 10y ago
      13' ones use U (ultra-low power) processors, while 15' use QH (quad-core with high performance graphics). Same with Dell updating XPS 13 with Kaby Lake last month, but XPS 15 would have to wait till next year. http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_processor/intel-core-i7-macs.html http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_processor/intel-core-i7-m... https://superuser.com/questions/940168/meaning-of-intel-processor-suffixes https://superuser.com/questions/940168/meaning-of-intel-proc...

grzm 10y ago

There are already rumors to that effect: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/31/macbooks-2017-price-cuts-32gb-ram/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/31/macbooks-2017-price-cuts...

drakenot 10y ago
Looks like that rumor was bogus: "As pointed out by Ars Technica's Andrew Cunningham and others, Kuo's outline of chip possibilities does not match up with what is known from leaked Intel roadmaps. Intel is not planning MacBook Pro-class chips in the Cannonlake family at all, and Coffee Lake chips aren't arriving until 2018."
- grzm 10y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't seen the update at the bottom of the article.

revelation 10y ago

If the question is "will something better become available in the future" then the answer is always "yes".

kgwgk 10y ago
Unless they discontinue the product completely, of course. The answer is "no" in that case.
kps 10y ago
That's not a foregone conclusion with Apple — whether it's the XServe in 2011, the 17" MacBook Pro in 2012, the expandable Mac Pro in 2013… there's a wall, folks, and it's got writing on it.
pier25 10y ago
That's what I thought for 2 years before these new MBPs, and yet, here we are.

flyinglizard 10y ago

Apple is too arrogant to backtrack. They will just persist and wait for their demographics to adapt. People take so much crap from Apple, this would be no different.

emehrkay 10y ago
Back when they went to the unibody design there was a non-pro MacBook with the same design that was quickly replaced by the white shiny plastic one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook#Unibody_aluminum_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook#Unibody_aluminum_model). They have "corrected" stumbles/confusion in the MBP line in the past, I don't see why they wouldn't do it again.
fatbird 10y ago
Or they'll wait for the initial hissyfit to die down and see what actual sales are like, because if sales remain good, then they'll correctly reason that the "influencer" demographic's tantrums don't actually matter that much.
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  But what if they have a high Klout score? How can their tantrums not matter?

josephg 10y ago

Based on past performance, Apple will update the iMac and Mac mini at some point next year. New laptop designs usually launch at a crazy premium (the MacBook air and 2015 MacBook were both super expensive at launch and came down in price with each update.) The MacBook Pro will almost certainly do the same. Whether the trash can Mac Pro gets an update is anyone's guess.

npunt 10y ago

It probably won't affect their future launches too much, but I do think they're going to take the feedback to heart. I imagine they've got the next iMac lined up, and the Mac Pro with Skylake-E / DDR4 and some 14nm AMD chips with HBM2. The iMac today is already a Skylake product, so the things the next one needs for feature-parity are TB3, USB-C, wireless keyboard with touchbar, and a new 14nm graphics chip. Wouldn't be surprised if it also got DDR4 as well. These may come earlier and/or cheaper due to user feedback. One change I expect that won't be driven much by feedback is price. The thing with releases like the new MBP is they typically command a price premium for a while and are then brought down in price. I'd imagine in a year the 13" MBPs will start at $1299 and 13" touchbar MBPs at $1499, roughly tracking with older prices. As the supply chain ramps up and gets more efficient, the cost of parts will drop. Hitting a target margin is the driving factor in this. Apple really does like new features (like the touch bar) to have broad availability in the lineup as quickly as possible, margins notwithstanding. Honestly, a lot of the pent up frustration is ultimately the fault of Intel - they didn't dedicate enough R&D on Broadwell to make it a proper next step, they botched the Skylake mobile launch with bad firmware (see: buggy Surface products earlier this year), they didn't include several features important to Apple including LPDDR4 support and DisplayPort 1.3 (necessitating MST Thunderbolt connection for 5k displays) not to mention HEVC encoding, their Core M chips are way overpriced which delays the transition of the MBAir to the Macbook chassis, etc. Not to mention AMD/Nvidia have been stuck on 28nm process for far too long (5 years) due to delays and quality of 20nm process, which necessitated the wait until 14nm parts were ready to do a joint launch with the 15" MBP. It was a confluence of bad timing from third party chip manufacturers. Also, when Apple launches something, they need them in super high volume. 13" MBPs are the #1 Mac by sales. Many other manufacturers can announce/launch flagship devices distinct from other products in their lineup with the latest chips, but wind up delaying them or just launching in very low volumes. Those manufacturers get the benefit of offering the latest & greatest, without the same level of demand to fulfill, nor level of scrutiny if delayed as would be with an Apple launch. So unless Apple has some exclusivity with Intel & AMD for new chips, they're necessarily going to be lagging a bit based solely on volume, and have to make up for it with exclusive features (like touchbar) and fit&finish (like new chassis). Apple invests a huge amount in controlling the chip manufacturing process in iDevices including redundancy in the supply chain and (I believe) building different variants on different process nodes in parallel, all in order to push the frontier as far out as possible on capability + volume. But they can't on Mac, which means they're going to be less focused on it. Nothing like owning 100% of success or failure for you to care about it. There's fair criticisms about USB-C but that's just how Apple does things; maybe they're 6-12mo early on it, but not much further. Same with chassis - they're dedicated to making each generation slightly smaller, and besides easing that constraint wouldn't have changed the current state of intel+amd chips, so they chose slightly lower performance now over larger chassis for years to come. I think they should have started with lower dongle prices; they clearly misread the frustration there. We'll see what the sales are and how long this storm lasts. MBPs are going to be the driving force in mainstreaming USB-C, at least that problem will go away in a relatively short period of time. Dongles will be a way of life for older devices, but so will drivers not being updated by manufacturers and other annoyances of aging tech.

matwood 10y ago

For me, more suitable means more RAM and lower price. I expect both next year because it is what they have done in the past. The port thing is completely overblown. It's a bit of short term pain for a better future. I will be confused if the next iPhone is not using the usb-c standard though. I feel like that is one thing Jobs would have not let happen. One thing he always seemed crazy about was the ecosystem and all things Apple working together.

rsync 10y ago

"Someone who knows more about this than me: given the significant negative reaction to the new MacBooks and the state of the mac lineup in general, is Apple likely to release a more suitable lineup in 2017 in response, or will they largely ignore the reaction?" My knee-jerk response is that no, they will pay no attention to this and will follow the current course with prejudice. The world of the expandable, versatile, technically minded mac pro (tower) gave way to the world of the dead-sexy-but-shackled wastebasket mac pro - and I don't see them going back on that. The one thing that gives me pause, however, is the evolution of the mac mini which changed form factor and became much, much easier to open (your thumbs, vs. weird special prybar tools that were very hard to use) and much, much easier to upgrade, customize and configure. So their track record is a disappointing one, but it's not a perfect one ... EDIT: I can't remember the details, but I seem to remember there was also some particular omission in macbook airs that they finally "fixed" ... when it was introduced we were told this omission was on purpose and was better for us, but then later they fixed it ... I just can't remember what it was ... something about the USB ports or ... ?

akhilcacharya 10y ago

Apple has backtracked before, but I don't think they'll backtrack completely. They'll probably put in an SD card slot or a magnetic USB-C for power or something like that.