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It asked me if intelligent alien life would know about pi. I answered "yes", and the survey told me that 84% had also answered "yes". Am I understanding that ri

It asked me if intelligent alien life would know about pi. I answered "yes", and the survey told me that 84% had also answered "yes". Am I understanding that right -- that 16% of respondents think that pi could be avoided? OK, I get that this is a wildly crazily speculative discussion but how does anyone imagine intelligent life that doesn't have a concept of pi in some form? Pi is everywhere in math and science.

AlphaWeaver 10y ago
There's no guarantee that intelligent life would use a mathematic system that enforced the idea of constants. While Pi must likely exist to intelligent societies, it may not exist in the same form.
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- dogma1138 10y ago
  Actually it's unlikely that it wouldn't it's like saying that they will not understand the what a prime number is. People mistake the value of a certain constant in decimal which is what we use to the meaning behind the constant itself.
blitzo 10y ago
Assuming their concept of math & science similar to us. Heck they may even have totally different concept of number. Imagined the thing we mysteriously called dark matter is just elementary subject to them.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  That doesn't matter they will still have Pi it's doesn't have to be 3.14... in base 10 it just means that they are aware of its existence through one of many of its special relationships. Number theory and set theory is pretty agnostic to any preconceptions of what we would call numbers in the day to day life.
trynumber9 10y ago
I put no. I'm not aware that humans knew pi sixty thousand years ago. But surely those early humans were still an intelligent life. Maybe you imagine an alien life far more advanced than I do.
- aaron695 10y ago
  When did we even know Pi was a surd? Before then we didn't know Pi. Do do we currently know Pi? Even that might be arguable?
DailyHN 10y ago
Can someone explain how pi holds up when base 8 math is applied?
- ardacinar 10y ago
  pi pops up in equations without using any numeric symbols. It might not necessarily be 3.14159... but the concept is still there
- Smaug123 10y ago
  For example, pi is the smallest strictly-positive real such that sin(pi) = 0, where sin is defined by its power series. That is a base-independent definition.
- CarolineW 10y ago
  Pi is a quantity, a value that is independent of the way you represent it in symbols. Base 8 is simply a different way of representing a given value, in the same way that 4/6 and 6/9 are two different ways of representing the same value. In the case of 4/6 and 6/9 there is an agreed canonical way of designating that value, namely 2/3. In the case of pi there is similarly an agreed canonical way of designating the value, namely the symbol π.
- Ensorceled 10y ago
  pi becomes 3.110375524210264302151423063050560067016321122011160210514763072002... in base 8 or, really, still pi Pi is just our name for the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter regardless of the base. This is why it doesn't make sense for an intelligent species not to know what 'pi' is. It's an important concept that pops up immediately in basic geometry and just keeps popping up over and over all the way to general relativity and beyond. Yes, an intelligent species may not know pi but they would not have progressed even to the point of basic geometry in the maths and sciences.
  - V-2 10y ago
    Their approach to geometry could be quite different though. Eg. they could use non-Euclidean geometry by default, 2D only being a special/edge case, and Pi, while encountered in calculations once in a while, wouldn't have a status of a well-known constant: which I understand would be the minimum to meet the requirement behind the question. If not, the question would be akin to whether they "know" 1, hard to say what it means
xxxxxxxx 10y ago
The good news is that the Pi question is up near the top of the list at 87%. After an hour on HN there are 44k responses in so far. Here is a summary sorted the percentage that agree/answered "yes". 23% Is gold valuable to them? 25% Do they eat aliens (i.e cannibalism)? 25% Can they time travel? 29% Do they have political parties? 31% Do they use base 10 maths? 31% Do they have compulsory taxation? 32% Do they have a United Nations? 34% Are there countries? 35% Do they have elections? 37% Do they have mobile phones? 38% Do they have insurance? 40% Do they have slavery? 40% Is there unemployment? 41% Do they have brands? 41% Is there advertising? 42% Do they have poverty? 43% Do they use money? 44% Do they have religion? 45% Is there a world leader? 45% Do they have double helix DNA? 48% Do they have private property? 52% Do they have corruption? 53% Do they wear clothes? 54% Is there theft? 54% Is there a market for second hand goods? 55% Do they have pills/oral medicine? 56% Do they have male & female? 58% Are there jails/prisons? 58% Do they eat animals? 60% Do they have pets? 60% Do they have shops? 61% Do they have governments with authority over individuals? 62% Do they have wars? 62% Do they have judges or courts to adjudicate disputes? 64% Do they use recreational drugs? 65% Do they have police? 65% Are there roads? 67% Do they practice euthanasia? 68% Do they have electronic computers? 69% Have they developed Artificial Intelligence? 69% Do they have fiction (books and movies)? 71% Do they live in multistory buildings? 71% Do they know about and agree with our periodic table of the elements? 72% Do they have a sewage system? 73% Do they know about and agree with the theory of relativity? 73% Do they sleep? 73% Do they have doctors and hospitals? 74% Do they have something like cement/concrete? 75% Do they have space travel? 78% Do they eat plants? 82% Do they grow old and die? 84% Do they have standardised weights and measures? 84% Do they have eyes? 85% Do they have something like the internet? 87% Do aliens know about Pi? 88% Are there cities? 89% Do they eat? 89% Do they have reading and writing? 92% Are there animals and plants (other than the aliens)?
mrfusion 10y ago
What if they do advanced math intuitively but don't consciously understand it?
disconcision 10y ago
Well clearly they would use tau.
throwwit 10y ago
Maybe by considering pi a fractal instead of a fraction. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80...
kahrkunne 10y ago
Intelligent does not necessarily imply developed. Also it's not like our math is the only math. It's completely possible that they have a functionally identical but radically different system from math, without concepts like numbers or ratios or what have you.

AlphaWeaver 10y ago

There's no guarantee that intelligent life would use a mathematic system that enforced the idea of constants. While Pi must likely exist to intelligent societies, it may not exist in the same form.

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dogma1138 10y ago
Actually it's unlikely that it wouldn't it's like saying that they will not understand the what a prime number is. People mistake the value of a certain constant in decimal which is what we use to the meaning behind the constant itself.

blitzo 10y ago

Assuming their concept of math & science similar to us. Heck they may even have totally different concept of number. Imagined the thing we mysteriously called dark matter is just elementary subject to them.

dogma1138 10y ago
That doesn't matter they will still have Pi it's doesn't have to be 3.14... in base 10 it just means that they are aware of its existence through one of many of its special relationships. Number theory and set theory is pretty agnostic to any preconceptions of what we would call numbers in the day to day life.

trynumber9 10y ago

I put no. I'm not aware that humans knew pi sixty thousand years ago. But surely those early humans were still an intelligent life. Maybe you imagine an alien life far more advanced than I do.

aaron695 10y ago
When did we even know Pi was a surd? Before then we didn't know Pi. Do do we currently know Pi? Even that might be arguable?

DailyHN 10y ago

Can someone explain how pi holds up when base 8 math is applied?

ardacinar 10y ago
pi pops up in equations without using any numeric symbols. It might not necessarily be 3.14159... but the concept is still there
Smaug123 10y ago
For example, pi is the smallest strictly-positive real such that sin(pi) = 0, where sin is defined by its power series. That is a base-independent definition.
CarolineW 10y ago
Pi is a quantity, a value that is independent of the way you represent it in symbols. Base 8 is simply a different way of representing a given value, in the same way that 4/6 and 6/9 are two different ways of representing the same value. In the case of 4/6 and 6/9 there is an agreed canonical way of designating that value, namely 2/3. In the case of pi there is similarly an agreed canonical way of designating the value, namely the symbol π.
Ensorceled 10y ago
pi becomes 3.110375524210264302151423063050560067016321122011160210514763072002... in base 8 or, really, still pi Pi is just our name for the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter regardless of the base. This is why it doesn't make sense for an intelligent species not to know what 'pi' is. It's an important concept that pops up immediately in basic geometry and just keeps popping up over and over all the way to general relativity and beyond. Yes, an intelligent species may not know pi but they would not have progressed even to the point of basic geometry in the maths and sciences.
- V-2 10y ago
  Their approach to geometry could be quite different though. Eg. they could use non-Euclidean geometry by default, 2D only being a special/edge case, and Pi, while encountered in calculations once in a while, wouldn't have a status of a well-known constant: which I understand would be the minimum to meet the requirement behind the question. If not, the question would be akin to whether they "know" 1, hard to say what it means

xxxxxxxx 10y ago

The good news is that the Pi question is up near the top of the list at 87%. After an hour on HN there are 44k responses in so far. Here is a summary sorted the percentage that agree/answered "yes". 23% Is gold valuable to them? 25% Do they eat aliens (i.e cannibalism)? 25% Can they time travel? 29% Do they have political parties? 31% Do they use base 10 maths? 31% Do they have compulsory taxation? 32% Do they have a United Nations? 34% Are there countries? 35% Do they have elections? 37% Do they have mobile phones? 38% Do they have insurance? 40% Do they have slavery? 40% Is there unemployment? 41% Do they have brands? 41% Is there advertising? 42% Do they have poverty? 43% Do they use money? 44% Do they have religion? 45% Is there a world leader? 45% Do they have double helix DNA? 48% Do they have private property? 52% Do they have corruption? 53% Do they wear clothes? 54% Is there theft? 54% Is there a market for second hand goods? 55% Do they have pills/oral medicine? 56% Do they have male & female? 58% Are there jails/prisons? 58% Do they eat animals? 60% Do they have pets? 60% Do they have shops? 61% Do they have governments with authority over individuals? 62% Do they have wars? 62% Do they have judges or courts to adjudicate disputes? 64% Do they use recreational drugs? 65% Do they have police? 65% Are there roads? 67% Do they practice euthanasia? 68% Do they have electronic computers? 69% Have they developed Artificial Intelligence? 69% Do they have fiction (books and movies)? 71% Do they live in multistory buildings? 71% Do they know about and agree with our periodic table of the elements? 72% Do they have a sewage system? 73% Do they know about and agree with the theory of relativity? 73% Do they sleep? 73% Do they have doctors and hospitals? 74% Do they have something like cement/concrete? 75% Do they have space travel? 78% Do they eat plants? 82% Do they grow old and die? 84% Do they have standardised weights and measures? 84% Do they have eyes? 85% Do they have something like the internet? 87% Do aliens know about Pi? 88% Are there cities? 89% Do they eat? 89% Do they have reading and writing? 92% Are there animals and plants (other than the aliens)?

mrfusion 10y ago

What if they do advanced math intuitively but don't consciously understand it?

disconcision 10y ago

Well clearly they would use tau.

throwwit 10y ago

Maybe by considering pi a fractal instead of a fraction. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80...

kahrkunne 10y ago

Intelligent does not necessarily imply developed. Also it's not like our math is the only math. It's completely possible that they have a functionally identical but radically different system from math, without concepts like numbers or ratios or what have you.