4 ms·

What was so bad about the security clearance aspect?

greglindahl 10y ago
A few people are a little disgruntled that the government gave all of the information in our security clearance applications/re-ups to China. That's my beef, I'm sure other folks have other things to say.
not_ed_snow 10y ago
The explicit and everpresent awareness that you are owned by your employer in your off hours, for a limited sub-selection of possible activities. In other words, you are not your productivity, you are required to live their moral code in your off hours.
- ohyoutravel 10y ago
  That is...most jobs. Unless I'm not understanding your meaning. Many jobs will fire you for, say, getting a DUI or getting arrested for drug possession or something. And many employers do drug testing. But realistically, a "limited sub-selection of possible activities" is just about everything everyone else can do, except maybe go to Cuba or smoke pot, the latter of which will get one fired at many non-government places.
  - mwfunk 10y ago
    Smoking weed is not going to get you fired anywhere, except for the worst jobs in the worst places. Any place that does regular drug testing and/or cares one teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit about employees smoking weed when they're not working is guaranteed to be a terrible place to work at, for that and any number of other reasons. There is not a single reputable company in the entire tech industry that does this.
    - exolymph 10y ago
      Uh, yeah, "in the tech industry" being the huge caveat here. Most HN readers might work in tech, but most people in general don't.
    - CaptSpify 10y ago
      > Smoking weed is not going to get you fired anywhere, except for the worst jobs in the worst places. Do you have numbers to back this up? Because almost every place I've worked at has had this policy. I think it's a terrible policy and should be illegal, but it's been pretty standard everywhere. Maybe it's not common in SV, but everywhere else it seems to be the norm, IME.
      - npiazza83 10y ago
        It has never been an issue for me as I don't partake, but anecdotally, I've worked at 5-10 mid range (100-200) firms in Virginia and Illinois and while I have been provided many free beers at work, if anyone suggested a drug testing program they would have been laughed out of the building. I even worked for a company that ran drug testing programs for the government and they did not drug test.
    - bcg1 10y ago
      That is definitely not true: http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/15/news/companies/dish-employee-firing-marijuana-colorado-court/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/15/news/companies/dish-employee...
      - npiazza83 10y ago
        I think you just proved his point. http://cable.tmcnet.com/topics/cable/articles/2013/01/07/321699-dish-network-regarded-as-worst-place-have-job.htm http://cable.tmcnet.com/topics/cable/articles/2013/01/07/321... "Out of 617 ratings on glassdoor.com, fully 246 called themselves “very dissatisfied.” The number of employees considering themselves “very satisfied” was just 48. Some comments even suggest that executive meddling may be involved in the “very satisfied” scores, with one commenter saying “Joe Clayton (CEO) put us up to upgrading our score.” Another commenter called their time with Dish “...like a prison sentence.”
  - dx034 10y ago
    Is drug testing always legal in the US? Can drug use on weekends get you fired for any job? I lived in several European countries, and as far as I know there's no way an employer can force you to take a drug test, with the exception of people handling heavy machinery. If you are on drugs while you're at your job this will of course have consequences, but a drug test that would reveal drug use in your free time is nothing the employer should be allowed to do or even care about. As an example, the rules in the UK clearly say that you need consent and that it has to be required by the nature of the job, which should exclude most (if not all) office jobs. [1] [1] https://www.gov.uk/monitoring-work-workers-rights/drug-testing https://www.gov.uk/monitoring-work-workers-rights/drug-testi...
    - icantdrive55 10y ago
      Yes--it's legal. Every construction worker, government worker, anyone who set foot on Pac Bell Ball Park in San Francisco during construction was drug tested. (It became lax after the first few months. I was worried because I'm on clonezepam. Been on it forever. I think they were more concerned with illegial drugs? I was send home my first day because I wore tennis shoes. I hated that job. My initials are on the top side of all the cherry wood player's lockers. One the top of the wood--only when they it down will they see my initials.)
    - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
      You can be fired for almost any reason in the US. There are only a few exceptions such as race, religion, sex or for reporting violations of some laws. So, yes, in almost any job you could be required to take a drug test and be fired if you refuse.
- hasbroslasher 10y ago
  Ironically, the Federal Government still ends up paying the price despite all of their efforts. I know around 10 top tier programmers who use drugs of some sort, have left of mainstream politics or just don't fit the "government worker" bill, but are no less patriotic and competent people. The loss of these people from the upper echelons of the state tech system is almost palpable. The CIA director was hacked by a bunch of teenagers from Eastern Europe, for Christ's sake! And then on top of that, even with all the screening they do, they still stop the Snowdens from infiltrating, still can't stop foreign intelligence, still can't get a sysadmin worth their salt to keep our future President's clandestine email server safe from the public's prying eyes!
former_govt 10y ago
They want to know deeply personal details about your life, show up at your neighbour's and friends doors to question them, have explicit control over where you can travel on your vacation, deeply care about what you do in your free time, and mishandled all of it -- all in the vague guise of preventing blackmail and sabotage. The blackmail and sabotage argument, as near as I can tell, is a farce because our enemies and "friends" are engaged in massive corporate espionage. If it were a real concern to them than they would use thier powers to require the same level of scrutiny on the private sector. In addition to that they say be truthful so you don't have anything to hide to prevent possible blackmail by foreign powers, but in reality it's the truthful ones who don't make it through the process. I've come to the conclusion that it's really just about having an excuse deny employment to "people not like us."
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  Man, and I though Snow Crash's portrayal of the feds was wildly exaggerated. Guess it was significantly less exaggerated that I thought.
- icantdrive55 10y ago
  They need to stop showing up at neighbors doors. My neighbor was supposedly applying for a federal job that required clearance. These people would come by, and try to talk to me. I had no idea who they were. I didnt want to talk to them. I thought they were a creditor of mine.(need to finish a chapter 7). Anyways, one left a little note, and I finally figured out who they were--I think? I wouldn't put it past a slimy process server? What am I suspose to tell the Feds about a neighbor who moved in a few months ago. I don't even know my long term neighbors, nor really care to? The federal government needs to realize people don't know their neighbors like they did in the past; or if you happen to find a nosey one--you do not want their assessments. "I think I smelled the devil's lettuce?" "Their dod pooped in my yard?" "I don't like his old truck." If this is how they do backround checks, NSA is not doing a good job. I don't like NSA, but use that information if it's just sitting around on a server?
- utnick 10y ago
  Its pretty backwards if you think about it, if the places you go or people you know or mistakes you make, can easily make you lose your security clearance and therefore your career could be ruined, it makes you much easier to blackmail than under a system that was more laissez-faire
fritzo 10y ago
Then after collecting your deeply personal information, they let it leak through poor security practices. This has happend to me and to other members of my family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...

A few people are a little disgruntled that the government gave all of the information in our security clearance applications/re-ups to China. That's my beef, I'm sure other folks have other things to say.

not_ed_snow 10y ago

The explicit and everpresent awareness that you are owned by your employer in your off hours, for a limited sub-selection of possible activities. In other words, you are not your productivity, you are required to live their moral code in your off hours.

ohyoutravel 10y ago
That is...most jobs. Unless I'm not understanding your meaning. Many jobs will fire you for, say, getting a DUI or getting arrested for drug possession or something. And many employers do drug testing. But realistically, a "limited sub-selection of possible activities" is just about everything everyone else can do, except maybe go to Cuba or smoke pot, the latter of which will get one fired at many non-government places.
- mwfunk 10y ago
  Smoking weed is not going to get you fired anywhere, except for the worst jobs in the worst places. Any place that does regular drug testing and/or cares one teeny tiny itsy bitsy bit about employees smoking weed when they're not working is guaranteed to be a terrible place to work at, for that and any number of other reasons. There is not a single reputable company in the entire tech industry that does this.
  - exolymph 10y ago
    Uh, yeah, "in the tech industry" being the huge caveat here. Most HN readers might work in tech, but most people in general don't.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    > Smoking weed is not going to get you fired anywhere, except for the worst jobs in the worst places. Do you have numbers to back this up? Because almost every place I've worked at has had this policy. I think it's a terrible policy and should be illegal, but it's been pretty standard everywhere. Maybe it's not common in SV, but everywhere else it seems to be the norm, IME.
    - npiazza83 10y ago
      It has never been an issue for me as I don't partake, but anecdotally, I've worked at 5-10 mid range (100-200) firms in Virginia and Illinois and while I have been provided many free beers at work, if anyone suggested a drug testing program they would have been laughed out of the building. I even worked for a company that ran drug testing programs for the government and they did not drug test.
  - bcg1 10y ago
    That is definitely not true: http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/15/news/companies/dish-employee-firing-marijuana-colorado-court/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/15/news/companies/dish-employee...
    - npiazza83 10y ago
      I think you just proved his point. http://cable.tmcnet.com/topics/cable/articles/2013/01/07/321699-dish-network-regarded-as-worst-place-have-job.htm http://cable.tmcnet.com/topics/cable/articles/2013/01/07/321... "Out of 617 ratings on glassdoor.com, fully 246 called themselves “very dissatisfied.” The number of employees considering themselves “very satisfied” was just 48. Some comments even suggest that executive meddling may be involved in the “very satisfied” scores, with one commenter saying “Joe Clayton (CEO) put us up to upgrading our score.” Another commenter called their time with Dish “...like a prison sentence.”
- dx034 10y ago
  Is drug testing always legal in the US? Can drug use on weekends get you fired for any job? I lived in several European countries, and as far as I know there's no way an employer can force you to take a drug test, with the exception of people handling heavy machinery. If you are on drugs while you're at your job this will of course have consequences, but a drug test that would reveal drug use in your free time is nothing the employer should be allowed to do or even care about. As an example, the rules in the UK clearly say that you need consent and that it has to be required by the nature of the job, which should exclude most (if not all) office jobs. [1] [1] https://www.gov.uk/monitoring-work-workers-rights/drug-testing https://www.gov.uk/monitoring-work-workers-rights/drug-testi...
  - icantdrive55 10y ago
    Yes--it's legal. Every construction worker, government worker, anyone who set foot on Pac Bell Ball Park in San Francisco during construction was drug tested. (It became lax after the first few months. I was worried because I'm on clonezepam. Been on it forever. I think they were more concerned with illegial drugs? I was send home my first day because I wore tennis shoes. I hated that job. My initials are on the top side of all the cherry wood player's lockers. One the top of the wood--only when they it down will they see my initials.)
  - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
    You can be fired for almost any reason in the US. There are only a few exceptions such as race, religion, sex or for reporting violations of some laws. So, yes, in almost any job you could be required to take a drug test and be fired if you refuse.
hasbroslasher 10y ago
Ironically, the Federal Government still ends up paying the price despite all of their efforts. I know around 10 top tier programmers who use drugs of some sort, have left of mainstream politics or just don't fit the "government worker" bill, but are no less patriotic and competent people. The loss of these people from the upper echelons of the state tech system is almost palpable. The CIA director was hacked by a bunch of teenagers from Eastern Europe, for Christ's sake! And then on top of that, even with all the screening they do, they still stop the Snowdens from infiltrating, still can't stop foreign intelligence, still can't get a sysadmin worth their salt to keep our future President's clandestine email server safe from the public's prying eyes!

former_govt 10y ago

They want to know deeply personal details about your life, show up at your neighbour's and friends doors to question them, have explicit control over where you can travel on your vacation, deeply care about what you do in your free time, and mishandled all of it -- all in the vague guise of preventing blackmail and sabotage. The blackmail and sabotage argument, as near as I can tell, is a farce because our enemies and "friends" are engaged in massive corporate espionage. If it were a real concern to them than they would use thier powers to require the same level of scrutiny on the private sector. In addition to that they say be truthful so you don't have anything to hide to prevent possible blackmail by foreign powers, but in reality it's the truthful ones who don't make it through the process. I've come to the conclusion that it's really just about having an excuse deny employment to "people not like us."

qwertyuiop924 10y ago
Man, and I though Snow Crash's portrayal of the feds was wildly exaggerated. Guess it was significantly less exaggerated that I thought.
icantdrive55 10y ago
They need to stop showing up at neighbors doors. My neighbor was supposedly applying for a federal job that required clearance. These people would come by, and try to talk to me. I had no idea who they were. I didnt want to talk to them. I thought they were a creditor of mine.(need to finish a chapter 7). Anyways, one left a little note, and I finally figured out who they were--I think? I wouldn't put it past a slimy process server? What am I suspose to tell the Feds about a neighbor who moved in a few months ago. I don't even know my long term neighbors, nor really care to? The federal government needs to realize people don't know their neighbors like they did in the past; or if you happen to find a nosey one--you do not want their assessments. "I think I smelled the devil's lettuce?" "Their dod pooped in my yard?" "I don't like his old truck." If this is how they do backround checks, NSA is not doing a good job. I don't like NSA, but use that information if it's just sitting around on a server?
utnick 10y ago
Its pretty backwards if you think about it, if the places you go or people you know or mistakes you make, can easily make you lose your security clearance and therefore your career could be ruined, it makes you much easier to blackmail than under a system that was more laissez-faire

fritzo 10y ago

Then after collecting your deeply personal information, they let it leak through poor security practices. This has happend to me and to other members of my family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...