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This might not be a popular opinion on this site, but I'd actually rather see things go the opposite way entirely. The reason I install such few apps isn't bec

This might not be a popular opinion on this site, but I'd actually rather see things go the opposite way entirely. The reason I install such few apps isn't because Google Play is inconvenient, it's because the vast majority of apps are simply designed to data mine or pump advertisements. Most of the time, they don't provide enough value to be worth using in the first place, while websites at least supposedly are sandboxed so they can't be so obnoxious. This is getting worse and worse though as browsers expose more and more of their host operating system's functionality. The benefits of using a website instead of a native app are quickly disappearing, while the drawbacks have only been somewhat mitigated. We're getting to the point where browsers are worthy of the decades old criticism Emacs has received. They have eventually become an OS with many fine features - simply lacking a good web browser. For the privacy conscious user, modern web technologies will undermine you every step of the way, or simply break if you choose to stand your ground. I personally would rather have a dozen well crafted battery sipping native C apps than a million awful contraptions built in a script interpreter on to of a VM by the lowest bidder on ODesk. Sure it's harder to do it right, but that's the cost of quality. Maybe I'm stuck in the 80's, but to me, it seems like a lot of wisdom has been shrugged off in the pursuit of expedience.

dhimes 10y ago
I don't want to be locked in the ecosystem of the hardware vendor.
- LeoNatan25 10y ago
  So you prefer to create a bad experience for your users?
- daptaq 10y ago
  Isn't that what C should have had solved by being "portable"? Or am I misunderstanding your point?
  - nine_k 10y ago
    It's APIs that lock you down, not the language.
- achikin 10y ago
  Nobody wants but most of us do in one way or the other.
- xj9 10y ago
  That doesn't have to be the case. Android is open. There's Plasma and Jolla, too. Maybe there needs to be a more curated App Store that carries only the best applications?
rayiner 10y ago
> The reason I install such few apps isn't because Google Play is inconvenient, it's because the vast majority of apps are simply designed to data mine or pump advertisements The iOS App Store isn't perfect in this regard, but it's miles ahead of Google Play, which doesn't seem to have any standards at all.
- givinguflac 10y ago
  Yep, this is one of the major reasons I refuse to use Android anymore. If it's what you like hey go for it, no problem for me- but too few people consider the full scope of what allowing permissions to apps brings. Not to mention the built in data mining Google does by default. Yes, Android has gotten better at their permissions model, but only slightly.
  - petra 10y ago
    Android's cyanogenmod has a "privacy guard" feature , which blocks access for apps for privacy data. But yes, Google still gets everything .
  - antocv 10y ago
    Install cyanogenmod, do not install any google apps or "pay services", use f-droid. Use webapps, a browser to sandbox better websites. Phone is marvelous now.
  - EuAndreh 10y ago
    Of course, we know iOS has way less data mining, since Apple is more transparent in this regard and we can all read iOS source code... Oh, wait...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
the_watcher 10y ago
I mostly agree. My hierarchy of mobile is well-built native app > functional, well-built mobile website > irritating native app > irritating mobile website. My biggest frustration with apps is iOS's lack of a well thought out launching experience, although I'm getting better about using Spotlight, but it's irregularly available, and swiping down is too common an action within an app.
randcraw 10y ago
Since mobile app ads are not going away any time soon, I'd much prefer vendors make their services available via web browsers. That way my browser's ad blocker can filter out most of the irrelevant annoying dross and waste less of my time and my bandwidth, not to mention improve my security and privacy. To that end, in recent months, I've found myself deleting about half of the mobile apps I'd downloaded over the years, and shifting to using the firm's browser interface whenever possible.
- b2600 10y ago
  The fact that you are being down voted illustrates who posts on HN. "Ads allow me to bring you awesome content". "Without ads, the web as it is today wouldn't exist". "Content providers!" This is true in a minority of cases. The problem is everyone who has a garbage app or a garbage site thinks this is the case for them. Most of the time their content is worthless. These are the most vocal. They spend more time on SEO BS than content or making an app that isn't horrific. If you have a good app or a good site, people will pay via ads or subs. The web would be better if everyone used adblock or ublock and these people found a legitimate way to earn a living.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >The problem is everyone who has a garbage app or a garbage site thinks this is the case for them. If it's so "garbage" then maybe don't install that app or visit that site? But people want the content, but not what pays for it (and also don't want to directly pay for it -- not in any sustainable numbers).
    - b2600 10y ago
      >If you have a good app or a good site, people will pay via ads or subs.
      - jbkrule 10y ago
        Then what is your argument? If people are willing to view ads when the content is good, then why does it matter if it's a native app or not?
conradev 10y ago
At some point, these well crafted battery sipping native C apps are going to be able to live in your browser with WebAssembly and WebGL.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >battery sipping native C apps Battery sipping native C apps? Mobile browser-based SPAs are worse battery sipping offenders than native apps. At least the native C apps don't run 2-3 extra levels of indirection AND the most inefficient GUI stack to top.
  - ta_donk_gt 10y ago
    I think they were using "sipping" as a compliment, as opposed to gulping, draining, etc.
    - uabstraction 10y ago
      Yes, that's what I was implying. Industry has been repeating the mantra of developer time being worth more than machine time for so long. Indeed, it's true, but far too many people forget that it's a trade off, and that machine time is still valuable. You can't just cut developer time at any expense. That's how we end up with phones that last 4 hours between charges and a vicious cycle of throwing hardware in the trash because lazy developers made it obsolete.
  - tree_of_item 10y ago
    The point of WebAssembly and WebGL is to remove a few layers of indirection and that inefficient GUI stack.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      Yet in real life use, WebGL apps suffer from spending too much time on the JS layer (for physics, instructions, etc), so they get a lot of overhead over pure OpenGL. WebAssembly might indeed solve this...
signal11 10y ago
I don't mind installing apps if it's something I care about. Medium is a great (counter-)example. I wanted to leave a comment on mobile. You can't unless you use their app. No thanks. I have an app that pays for parking in my city. It's pretty decent and I'm happy with it. If I go to another city once in a while, I'm likely not going to download a different app to pay for parking there. Or if I visit a furniture store for something once, I really don't want their app. And so on.
vic-traill 10y ago
>it's because the vast majority of apps are simply >designed to data mine or pump advertisements This mirrors my experience. I derive all the value I'm looking for from my personal and work mobile devices (yes I like to keep them separate) with less than five apps beyond the vendor+carrier distribution on each. This is particularly true for my work device, which is a BlackBerry Z30. There aren't many apps available for this environment so the browser is the primary point of mobile interaction. Your point regarding browsers becoming a modern Emacs is a concern and a good expression of the issue. I'm not sure what to do about this - I can only pick and choose a browser where options are available and look to configure it to my advantage. Any suggestions?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
NicoJuicy 10y ago
- to data mine or pump advertisements Perhaps check out the new permission model, which requests permissions at runtime, instead of upfront. And about ads, more and more iOS apps are starting it too, i thought ( don't have iOS, read it from multiple sources)
- uabstraction 10y ago
  The new permissions model on Android is a big improvement over the former "take it or leave it" approach, but applications can still deny service if you don't give them what they want. I can't comment on iOS because I've never owned an iPhone. Perhaps I'm just spoiled by the excellent quality software I get for free on my Gentoo/Debian workstation. I just refuse to accept that because my phone fits in my pocket, the standards should be so much lower. I miss my n900 dammit. :/
Kurtz79 10y ago
Same here. When the application has been designed from the ground-up with the target platform in mind, the user experience is almost always better than the equivalent in-browser, at least for me. Apart from performance-intensive apps/services like Netflix or Twitch, even things like Linkedin I find more engaging on a tablet/phone. The app feels more responsive, the design does not have the same constraints as when designing for a browser. But I really don't see the need of seeing it as a dichotomy, as a "there will be only one" thing. The convenience/ubiquity/versatility of a browser is hard to match. Just like the browser didn't kill desktop applications, native apps won't kill the browser.
romaniv 10y ago
>I personally would rather have a dozen well crafted battery sipping native C apps than a million awful contraptions built in a script interpreter on to of a VM by the lowest bidder on ODesk. Amusingly enough, you just described how apps worked on my first mobile device - a Windows CE PDA. There weren't a lot of free programs available, but the ones I could find were very well-designed.

dhimes 10y ago

I don't want to be locked in the ecosystem of the hardware vendor.

LeoNatan25 10y ago
So you prefer to create a bad experience for your users?
daptaq 10y ago
Isn't that what C should have had solved by being "portable"? Or am I misunderstanding your point?
- nine_k 10y ago
  It's APIs that lock you down, not the language.
achikin 10y ago
Nobody wants but most of us do in one way or the other.
xj9 10y ago
That doesn't have to be the case. Android is open. There's Plasma and Jolla, too. Maybe there needs to be a more curated App Store that carries only the best applications?

rayiner 10y ago

> The reason I install such few apps isn't because Google Play is inconvenient, it's because the vast majority of apps are simply designed to data mine or pump advertisements The iOS App Store isn't perfect in this regard, but it's miles ahead of Google Play, which doesn't seem to have any standards at all.

givinguflac 10y ago
Yep, this is one of the major reasons I refuse to use Android anymore. If it's what you like hey go for it, no problem for me- but too few people consider the full scope of what allowing permissions to apps brings. Not to mention the built in data mining Google does by default. Yes, Android has gotten better at their permissions model, but only slightly.
- petra 10y ago
  Android's cyanogenmod has a "privacy guard" feature , which blocks access for apps for privacy data. But yes, Google still gets everything .
- antocv 10y ago
  Install cyanogenmod, do not install any google apps or "pay services", use f-droid. Use webapps, a browser to sandbox better websites. Phone is marvelous now.
- EuAndreh 10y ago
  Of course, we know iOS has way less data mining, since Apple is more transparent in this regard and we can all read iOS source code... Oh, wait...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

the_watcher 10y ago

I mostly agree. My hierarchy of mobile is well-built native app > functional, well-built mobile website > irritating native app > irritating mobile website. My biggest frustration with apps is iOS's lack of a well thought out launching experience, although I'm getting better about using Spotlight, but it's irregularly available, and swiping down is too common an action within an app.

randcraw 10y ago

Since mobile app ads are not going away any time soon, I'd much prefer vendors make their services available via web browsers. That way my browser's ad blocker can filter out most of the irrelevant annoying dross and waste less of my time and my bandwidth, not to mention improve my security and privacy. To that end, in recent months, I've found myself deleting about half of the mobile apps I'd downloaded over the years, and shifting to using the firm's browser interface whenever possible.

b2600 10y ago
The fact that you are being down voted illustrates who posts on HN. "Ads allow me to bring you awesome content". "Without ads, the web as it is today wouldn't exist". "Content providers!" This is true in a minority of cases. The problem is everyone who has a garbage app or a garbage site thinks this is the case for them. Most of the time their content is worthless. These are the most vocal. They spend more time on SEO BS than content or making an app that isn't horrific. If you have a good app or a good site, people will pay via ads or subs. The web would be better if everyone used adblock or ublock and these people found a legitimate way to earn a living.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >The problem is everyone who has a garbage app or a garbage site thinks this is the case for them. If it's so "garbage" then maybe don't install that app or visit that site? But people want the content, but not what pays for it (and also don't want to directly pay for it -- not in any sustainable numbers).
  - b2600 10y ago
    >If you have a good app or a good site, people will pay via ads or subs.
    - jbkrule 10y ago
      Then what is your argument? If people are willing to view ads when the content is good, then why does it matter if it's a native app or not?

conradev 10y ago

At some point, these well crafted battery sipping native C apps are going to be able to live in your browser with WebAssembly and WebGL.

coldtea 10y ago
>battery sipping native C apps Battery sipping native C apps? Mobile browser-based SPAs are worse battery sipping offenders than native apps. At least the native C apps don't run 2-3 extra levels of indirection AND the most inefficient GUI stack to top.
- ta_donk_gt 10y ago
  I think they were using "sipping" as a compliment, as opposed to gulping, draining, etc.
  - uabstraction 10y ago
    Yes, that's what I was implying. Industry has been repeating the mantra of developer time being worth more than machine time for so long. Indeed, it's true, but far too many people forget that it's a trade off, and that machine time is still valuable. You can't just cut developer time at any expense. That's how we end up with phones that last 4 hours between charges and a vicious cycle of throwing hardware in the trash because lazy developers made it obsolete.
- tree_of_item 10y ago
  The point of WebAssembly and WebGL is to remove a few layers of indirection and that inefficient GUI stack.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Yet in real life use, WebGL apps suffer from spending too much time on the JS layer (for physics, instructions, etc), so they get a lot of overhead over pure OpenGL. WebAssembly might indeed solve this...

signal11 10y ago

I don't mind installing apps if it's something I care about. Medium is a great (counter-)example. I wanted to leave a comment on mobile. You can't unless you use their app. No thanks. I have an app that pays for parking in my city. It's pretty decent and I'm happy with it. If I go to another city once in a while, I'm likely not going to download a different app to pay for parking there. Or if I visit a furniture store for something once, I really don't want their app. And so on.

vic-traill 10y ago

>it's because the vast majority of apps are simply >designed to data mine or pump advertisements This mirrors my experience. I derive all the value I'm looking for from my personal and work mobile devices (yes I like to keep them separate) with less than five apps beyond the vendor+carrier distribution on each. This is particularly true for my work device, which is a BlackBerry Z30. There aren't many apps available for this environment so the browser is the primary point of mobile interaction. Your point regarding browsers becoming a modern Emacs is a concern and a good expression of the issue. I'm not sure what to do about this - I can only pick and choose a browser where options are available and look to configure it to my advantage. Any suggestions?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

NicoJuicy 10y ago

- to data mine or pump advertisements Perhaps check out the new permission model, which requests permissions at runtime, instead of upfront. And about ads, more and more iOS apps are starting it too, i thought ( don't have iOS, read it from multiple sources)

uabstraction 10y ago
The new permissions model on Android is a big improvement over the former "take it or leave it" approach, but applications can still deny service if you don't give them what they want. I can't comment on iOS because I've never owned an iPhone. Perhaps I'm just spoiled by the excellent quality software I get for free on my Gentoo/Debian workstation. I just refuse to accept that because my phone fits in my pocket, the standards should be so much lower. I miss my n900 dammit. :/

Kurtz79 10y ago

Same here. When the application has been designed from the ground-up with the target platform in mind, the user experience is almost always better than the equivalent in-browser, at least for me. Apart from performance-intensive apps/services like Netflix or Twitch, even things like Linkedin I find more engaging on a tablet/phone. The app feels more responsive, the design does not have the same constraints as when designing for a browser. But I really don't see the need of seeing it as a dichotomy, as a "there will be only one" thing. The convenience/ubiquity/versatility of a browser is hard to match. Just like the browser didn't kill desktop applications, native apps won't kill the browser.

romaniv 10y ago

>I personally would rather have a dozen well crafted battery sipping native C apps than a million awful contraptions built in a script interpreter on to of a VM by the lowest bidder on ODesk. Amusingly enough, you just described how apps worked on my first mobile device - a Windows CE PDA. There weren't a lot of free programs available, but the ones I could find were very well-designed.