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>It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece fi

>It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now. That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity. In both cases it wasn't even as if the parties didn't want to end austerity but when they tried they were basically threatened with economic catastrophe (shutting payment systems in the entire country, indefinitely). Last year they fired a kind of warning shot. Greek banks had to shut down for six days, cash machines only let you remove a small amount each day, capital controls were imposed. That could have been continued indefinitely. Eventually Syriza wilted. Their mistake was assuming in the negotiations that the Troika's primary concern was getting their debts repaid. It wasn't. They just wanted greece to knuckle under and do as it was told. The problem isn't than an elected government couldn't extricate the country from the Euro and return the country to growth, it's that kind of project would take 9 months minimum and during that entire time the country is vulnerable to the ECB flipping the switch on their economy and "turning off" Greek savings and "turning off" international trade and effecting instant 3rd world status (and not even 'good' third world status). In effect, Greece has been converted into a puppet state that rubber stamps European Commission and ECB legislation. They issue diktats to Greece who rubber stamps them, and they're not even really pretending it's about getting paid back any more.

tormeh 10y ago
>shutting off all forms of payment in the entire country indefinitely Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. That Greece has made itself completely dependent on emergency liquidity from the ECB is the country's own silly fault. Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. That said I don't think the current situation makes much sense. The odds are high that the debt will never be paid back and that Greece will never have a developed-country government. There have been some promising developments recently, but I'm sure we can all agree that Greece should never have been admitted to the Eurozone and maybe not even the EU.
- atmosx 10y ago
  As a Greek I'm aghast by fellow know-it-all Greeks who bought in in this we deserver what we're going through. And it's not just random commentators on HN, it is an entire political class. > Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. G.Papandreou who campaigned with the MOTO "there are enough money for everyone", went around Europe calling Greeks crooked by default. As if every Greek is a crooked and tax-evading[1] citizen. Then came along Pagkalos of course, but the same MOTO is rhetoric is re-played time and again by politicians, just to name a few: A. Georgiadis at "Enikos", A. Loverdos before him, E. Venizelos and many others have replayed this recurring theme. I don't believe that there is another country's population, who has received so much systemic brainwash into believing that it is it's own fault. You want to tell me that when the Minister of Finance tells me that our banks are safe (2008), you would expect from the 60-year old public worker to understand that he is lying and believe otherwise? I don't. So again to answer your question: > Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. Fuck no! It's easy to be pissed with the prior generation but it is a simplistic and stupid approach. > Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. I won't enter into details because I'm bored. I've have written thousands of word regarding Greece, the EU and ECB here on HN and honestly I'm tired. The ECB was created as an apolitical instrument and it's been since then used time and again (Ireland, Greece, Portugal) as a political tool by French and German politician to save their bankrupt banks. Do you have any idea what is really happenning here[2] ? It's not about Greece, so hatred should not cloud your judgement. If you don't know what is happening in this instance, please gets your fact STRAIGHT please. ADDENDUM: The only politician who got it right about the ECB was M. Thatcher in her last speech in the house of commons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZf7cLhPG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZf7cLhPG8 - it's outstanding how a right-wing, libertarian politician understood, what French, Greek, Italian, etc. Socialists failed to see... [1] The problematic relationship between Greek citizens and the Greek goes back to 1821 and it's almost exclusively the state's fault. There are cultural and historical reasons why this is, however, the state still today sees the average as tax-evader a priori. [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x7FTH_ZIsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x7FTH_ZIsU
  - linkregister 10y ago
sasvari 10y ago
That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity. The Greek electorate consistently voted for PASOK or ND, before the whole thing blew up. And only after that, when no political party could promise any unsustainable presents anymore, did a shift in the political spectrum take place. (Anecdotally: I have a lot of Greek friends, and although I/they don't agree on a lot of things about the current situation in Greece, there's one thing they agree on: that the root of the problem was the rotten political system in Greece, and that the people (meaning in that case: the generation of their parents) consistently voted for PASOK/ND besides knowing how rotten that system was.) (As a note: I am not arguing about whether Greece is a puppet state, the situation now is only the fault of (the) EU/EC/Germany/[place devil here], or if austerity is the way out or the real problem. I leave that to people who know more about it or at least think they do.)
akytt 10y ago
Why is it that these people are nice and kind when they finance your government spending for decades but turn into facist greedy bastards when they come asking for their money back? That's what it boils down to. Why is that that everybody else starting from EC and ECB and ending with corrupt polititians (who, it would seem, have magically appeared from amongst non-greek) is to blame but I'm yet to see any citizen taking responsibility. "Yes, it felt good voting for populists and enjoying massive social benefits from the state and not really having to pay taxes but now I have a hangover". That's democracy for you. Your right to vote comes with a responsibility for the consequences.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  >Why is it that these people are nice and kind when they finance your government spending for decades but turn into facist greedy bastards when they come asking for their money back? They're not trying to get their money back. They're simply taking the reins of power and threatening economic catastrophe if they're disobeyed. It ought to be obvious to anybody with a functioning brain that Greece is not paying down its debts and that the European Commissions directives are clearly not about making Greece more able to do so. The question you have to ask yourself then is, what are they asking of Greece? Because it's definitely not when are they going to pay us back? >That's democracy for you. It's democracy when you inadvertently voted for somebody who handed the reins of power over to a foreign country. That's the transition of democracy to dictatorship. >Your right to vote comes with a responsibility for the consequences. Which country do you exercise your vote in?
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    Well, that's how it goes when you take money from someone in order to keep from disaster. They get a say in how things go thereafter. You write this as if some Greek politicians just woke up one morning and decided to hand over sovereignty to foreigners. That's not how it happened. Greece was forced into it, because Greece had to have foreign money in order to survive. It's been known for 3000 years what the consequences of that situation are - the borrower becomes the lender's slave (Proverbs 22:7). So the "that's democracy for you" part was when they voted for people whose bad decisions put Greece in that situation.
AnimalMuppet 10y ago
> ... and they're not even really pretending it's about getting paid back any more. No, and it never was (though they may have pretended that it was at one time). It is, and was, about keeping Greece from economically destroying all of Europe. But since they're providing the money that keeps Greece out of the abyss, they get to call the tune, no matter whether it's about getting their money back or not...

tormeh 10y ago

>shutting off all forms of payment in the entire country indefinitely Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. That Greece has made itself completely dependent on emergency liquidity from the ECB is the country's own silly fault. Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. That said I don't think the current situation makes much sense. The odds are high that the debt will never be paid back and that Greece will never have a developed-country government. There have been some promising developments recently, but I'm sure we can all agree that Greece should never have been admitted to the Eurozone and maybe not even the EU.

atmosx 10y ago
As a Greek I'm aghast by fellow know-it-all Greeks who bought in in this we deserver what we're going through. And it's not just random commentators on HN, it is an entire political class. > Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. G.Papandreou who campaigned with the MOTO "there are enough money for everyone", went around Europe calling Greeks crooked by default. As if every Greek is a crooked and tax-evading[1] citizen. Then came along Pagkalos of course, but the same MOTO is rhetoric is re-played time and again by politicians, just to name a few: A. Georgiadis at "Enikos", A. Loverdos before him, E. Venizelos and many others have replayed this recurring theme. I don't believe that there is another country's population, who has received so much systemic brainwash into believing that it is it's own fault. You want to tell me that when the Minister of Finance tells me that our banks are safe (2008), you would expect from the 60-year old public worker to understand that he is lying and believe otherwise? I don't. So again to answer your question: > Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. Fuck no! It's easy to be pissed with the prior generation but it is a simplistic and stupid approach. > Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. I won't enter into details because I'm bored. I've have written thousands of word regarding Greece, the EU and ECB here on HN and honestly I'm tired. The ECB was created as an apolitical instrument and it's been since then used time and again (Ireland, Greece, Portugal) as a political tool by French and German politician to save their bankrupt banks. Do you have any idea what is really happenning here[2] ? It's not about Greece, so hatred should not cloud your judgement. If you don't know what is happening in this instance, please gets your fact STRAIGHT please. ADDENDUM: The only politician who got it right about the ECB was M. Thatcher in her last speech in the house of commons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZf7cLhPG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZf7cLhPG8 - it's outstanding how a right-wing, libertarian politician understood, what French, Greek, Italian, etc. Socialists failed to see... [1] The problematic relationship between Greek citizens and the Greek goes back to 1821 and it's almost exclusively the state's fault. There are cultural and historical reasons why this is, however, the state still today sees the average as tax-evader a priori. [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x7FTH_ZIsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x7FTH_ZIsU
- linkregister 10y ago

sasvari 10y ago

That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity. The Greek electorate consistently voted for PASOK or ND, before the whole thing blew up. And only after that, when no political party could promise any unsustainable presents anymore, did a shift in the political spectrum take place. (Anecdotally: I have a lot of Greek friends, and although I/they don't agree on a lot of things about the current situation in Greece, there's one thing they agree on: that the root of the problem was the rotten political system in Greece, and that the people (meaning in that case: the generation of their parents) consistently voted for PASOK/ND besides knowing how rotten that system was.) (As a note: I am not arguing about whether Greece is a puppet state, the situation now is only the fault of (the) EU/EC/Germany/[place devil here], or if austerity is the way out or the real problem. I leave that to people who know more about it or at least think they do.)

akytt 10y ago

Why is it that these people are nice and kind when they finance your government spending for decades but turn into facist greedy bastards when they come asking for their money back? That's what it boils down to. Why is that that everybody else starting from EC and ECB and ending with corrupt polititians (who, it would seem, have magically appeared from amongst non-greek) is to blame but I'm yet to see any citizen taking responsibility. "Yes, it felt good voting for populists and enjoying massive social benefits from the state and not really having to pay taxes but now I have a hangover". That's democracy for you. Your right to vote comes with a responsibility for the consequences.

crdoconnor 10y ago
>Why is it that these people are nice and kind when they finance your government spending for decades but turn into facist greedy bastards when they come asking for their money back? They're not trying to get their money back. They're simply taking the reins of power and threatening economic catastrophe if they're disobeyed. It ought to be obvious to anybody with a functioning brain that Greece is not paying down its debts and that the European Commissions directives are clearly not about making Greece more able to do so. The question you have to ask yourself then is, what are they asking of Greece? Because it's definitely not when are they going to pay us back? >That's democracy for you. It's democracy when you inadvertently voted for somebody who handed the reins of power over to a foreign country. That's the transition of democracy to dictatorship. >Your right to vote comes with a responsibility for the consequences. Which country do you exercise your vote in?
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  Well, that's how it goes when you take money from someone in order to keep from disaster. They get a say in how things go thereafter. You write this as if some Greek politicians just woke up one morning and decided to hand over sovereignty to foreigners. That's not how it happened. Greece was forced into it, because Greece had to have foreign money in order to survive. It's been known for 3000 years what the consequences of that situation are - the borrower becomes the lender's slave (Proverbs 22:7). So the "that's democracy for you" part was when they voted for people whose bad decisions put Greece in that situation.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago

> ... and they're not even really pretending it's about getting paid back any more. No, and it never was (though they may have pretended that it was at one time). It is, and was, about keeping Greece from economically destroying all of Europe. But since they're providing the money that keeps Greece out of the abyss, they get to call the tune, no matter whether it's about getting their money back or not...