4 ms·

Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. Anything is better

• crdoconnor 10y ago
  >It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now. That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity. In both cases it wasn't even as if the parties didn't want to end austerity but when they tried they were basically threatened with economic catastrophe (shutting payment systems in the entire country, indefinitely). Last year they fired a kind of warning shot. Greek banks had to shut down for six days, cash machines only let you remove a small amount each day, capital controls were imposed. That could have been continued indefinitely. Eventually Syriza wilted. Their mistake was assuming in the negotiations that the Troika's primary concern was getting their debts repaid. It wasn't. They just wanted greece to knuckle under and do as it was told. The problem isn't than an elected government couldn't extricate the country from the Euro and return the country to growth, it's that kind of project would take 9 months minimum and during that entire time the country is vulnerable to the ECB flipping the switch on their economy and "turning off" Greek savings and "turning off" international trade and effecting instant 3rd world status (and not even 'good' third world status). In effect, Greece has been converted into a puppet state that rubber stamps European Commission and ECB legislation. They issue diktats to Greece who rubber stamps them, and they're not even really pretending it's about getting paid back any more.
  • tormeh 10y ago
    >shutting off all forms of payment in the entire country indefinitely Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. That Greece has made itself completely dependent on emergency liquidity from the ECB is the country's own silly fault. Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. That said I don't think the current situation makes much sense. The odds are high that the debt will never be paid back and that Greece will never have a developed-country government. There have been some promising developments recently, but I'm sure we can all agree that Greece should never have been admitted to the Eurozone and maybe not even the EU.
    • atmosx 10y ago
      As a Greek I'm aghast by fellow know-it-all Greeks who bought in in this we deserver what we're going through. And it's not just random commentators on HN, it is an entire political class. > Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. G.Papandreou who campaigned with the MOTO "there are enough money for everyone", went around Europe calling Greeks crooked by default. As if every Greek is a crooked and tax-evading[1] citizen. Then came along Pagkalos of course, but the same MOTO is rhetoric is re-played time and again by politicians, just to name a few: A. Georgiadis at "Enikos", A. Loverdos before him, E. Venizelos and many others have replayed this recurring theme. I don't believe that there is another country's population, who has received so much systemic brainwash into believing that it is it's own fault. You want to tell me that when the Minister of Finance tells me that our banks are safe (2008), you would expect from the 60-year old public worker to understand that he is lying and believe otherwise? I don't. So again to answer your question: > Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. Fuck no! It's easy to be pissed with the prior generation but it is a simplistic and stupid approach. > Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. I won't enter into details because I'm bored. I've have written thousands of word regarding Greece, the EU and ECB here on HN and honestly I'm tired. The ECB was created as an apolitical instrument and it's been since then used time and again (Ireland, Greece, Portugal) as a political tool by French and German politician to save their bankrupt banks. Do you have any idea what is really happenning here[2] ? It's not about Greece, so hatred should not cloud your judgement. If you don't know what is happening in this instance, please gets your fact STRAIGHT please. ADDENDUM: The only politician who got it right about the ECB was M. Thatcher in her last speech in the house of commons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZf7cLhPG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZf7cLhPG8 - it's outstanding how a right-wing, libertarian politician understood, what French, Greek, Italian, etc. Socialists failed to see... [1] The problematic relationship between Greek citizens and the Greek goes back to 1821 and it's almost exclusively the state's fault. There are cultural and historical reasons why this is, however, the state still today sees the average as tax-evader a priori. [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x7FTH_ZIsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x7FTH_ZIsU
• atmosx 10y ago
  Bringing SYRIZA to power was a sort of revolution. For 40 years the Greek political was dominated by 2 parties and before that there was a series of dictatorships, wars, etc. It was another era. We also held a referendum but the gov capitulated... From there on, I'm not sure who's going to the ballots and why it matters. I mean, for all important matters such as this tax for example, decisions are made at Troika level (EU/ECB/IMF), our gov is just the executive.