5 ms·

> Nobody would buy the house If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? Real as

by nugget 10y ago

> Nobody would buy the house If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? Real assets are usually sale-able, albeit perhaps for less than the owner thinks the asset is worth. > Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. Since Greece is still in the EU, you can move to any member country right? UK, Germany, France? Certainly there must be places in the EU where the economy is better and there are more opportunities. People have been migrating around the world chasing economic opportunities for thousands of years. A million Syrians just traveled through Greece on their way north in search of this. > Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (because of the area around it). Now out of the blue we have to pay property tax. What do we do? It seems that what has effectively happened is that the Greek Government has decided to confiscate a large part of the country's wealth through extremely high property tax rates. As other posters on this thread have mentioned, if the tax rate is 1% but the appraised value is 3x the actual market value, then the real tax rate is 3% and your Government is just playing games to try and hide the confiscation. Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. Anything is better than decades of externally enforced austerity crippling a country's spirit as reflected in everything I read these days about Greece.

Ntrails 10y ago
> Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership They tried that. Turns out politicians aren't actually very trustworthy...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- erispoe 10y ago
  Turns out when people have to actually govern the thing they're pragmatists. That's what happened to Syriza. They're not "untrustworthy", they're just doing the best with the hand they inherited considering what EU politics are right now.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    It's always nice to say you'll demand x, y and z from a third party during elections. But if you have no leverage, and the other party says no, there's little one can do.
CyberDildonics 10y ago
> If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? I'm not a mathematician, but I think that would make it a 50k or 70k house.
- pyb 10y ago
  Well put. If the house, 'valued' by the government at 300k, is actually a '90k' house that will in fact sell for 50k, perhaps it's time to get real, save time and call it a EUR 50k property from the start. Everything sells for the right price. As for the issue of finding a buyer, I am hearing rumours that many Greeks have built up sizeable assets, from not paying very much tax in the last few decades. Many areas in Greece are also popular with European buyers.
  - muyuu 10y ago
    Yeah, and then the government will still tax the owner for the full self-assessed amount. Even if the full sale doesn't pay for the tax, and then prosecute you for the unpaid tax. This already happens in many places with property inheritance tax in the EU. All across Southern EU the governments are valuing assets as in the peak of the bubble because it suits them.
sasvari 10y ago
Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. Anything is better than decades of externally enforced austerity crippling a country's spirit as reflected in everything I read these days about Greece. Looking at the democratically elected politicians/governments in Greece in the last decades I don't know where a totally new political leadership [edit: which would be interested and capable of 'rebuilding the country'] should come from. It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  >It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now. That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity. In both cases it wasn't even as if the parties didn't want to end austerity but when they tried they were basically threatened with economic catastrophe (shutting payment systems in the entire country, indefinitely). Last year they fired a kind of warning shot. Greek banks had to shut down for six days, cash machines only let you remove a small amount each day, capital controls were imposed. That could have been continued indefinitely. Eventually Syriza wilted. Their mistake was assuming in the negotiations that the Troika's primary concern was getting their debts repaid. It wasn't. They just wanted greece to knuckle under and do as it was told. The problem isn't than an elected government couldn't extricate the country from the Euro and return the country to growth, it's that kind of project would take 9 months minimum and during that entire time the country is vulnerable to the ECB flipping the switch on their economy and "turning off" Greek savings and "turning off" international trade and effecting instant 3rd world status (and not even 'good' third world status). In effect, Greece has been converted into a puppet state that rubber stamps European Commission and ECB legislation. They issue diktats to Greece who rubber stamps them, and they're not even really pretending it's about getting paid back any more.
  - tormeh 10y ago
StanislavPetrov 10y ago
>Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. That was actually the best of Greece's bad choices, but they were strongarmed by the IMF and the ECB into not defaulting and pulling a brick out of the financial pyramid scheme upon which western society is based.
- akytt 10y ago
  Ok, a revolution. But, praytell, who would finance that new fresh government? There's little capital in the country, people don't evidently like the idea to start paying taxes all of a sudden and you just screwed over a large group of investors. That money is going to be way more expensive than the average market yield. That means your economic growth will likely not cover the interest payments. Which means you'd take on new loans to pay back your old ones with interest. And we'll be having the exact same conversation in 25 years or so. Yeah, your generation is going to so okish. But the next one will do even worse than you after a fresh round of damage on Greece reputation on financial markets.
  - nugget 10y ago
    No financing is required unless you want to run a budget deficit. Greece is one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. They could use that sector as the cornerstone to rebuild. They would be poor (to start) but they would also be free. I think this is their destiny eventually but I don't think the pain is bad enough yet.
Bartweiss 10y ago
I think the answer to your first question is "if you put it up at public auction tomorrow, that would be totally illegal." There are huge legal barriers to property sales, including requirements for energy audits and certification that the construction is wholly legal - which is probably isn't. Just like in the US, a great many safe and livable Greek properties violate zoning laws. Real assets are salable, but in this case the government has crippled the market's ability to clear. All of which just reinforces your last point; the existing legal structure pretty much guarantees perpetual economic crisis.
- honkhonkpants 10y ago
  Zoning laws in the US don't govern anything other than the initial certificate of occupancy in most US states. They are irrelevant for subsequent sales.
  - bonzini 10y ago
    In order to sell (in Italy) the building must have the same plan (roofs, doors, windows, walls, ...) that was declared when it was built first. You can pay a fine if there are differences, but only if the actual plan obeys the zoning laws now and would have obeyed them at the time the certificate of occupancy was last released.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    Yes, that was my point but I think I was unclear. Like the US, Greece has many properties which would be illegal to build from scratch under existing zoning laws. Unlike the US, Greece has pushed a law requiring that all properties be certified as "having no illegal constructions" prior to sale. I'm trying to imagine the crisis you would get if you enforced zoning laws against secondary sales in the US. At the very least, all of Boston would be uninhabitable.
return0 10y ago
> Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership A large part of our electorate thinks like that, and thus came Syriza (Syriza may be a household name, but not everyone knows that it stands for "Coalition of radical-left parties"). Yet when push comes to shove syriza turned instantly back into austerity. The electorate acted like an angry teenager. Magic bullets don't exist.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by nugget 10y ago

Ntrails 10y ago

> Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership They tried that. Turns out politicians aren't actually very trustworthy...

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
erispoe 10y ago
Turns out when people have to actually govern the thing they're pragmatists. That's what happened to Syriza. They're not "untrustworthy", they're just doing the best with the hand they inherited considering what EU politics are right now.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  It's always nice to say you'll demand x, y and z from a third party during elections. But if you have no leverage, and the other party says no, there's little one can do.

CyberDildonics 10y ago

> If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? I'm not a mathematician, but I think that would make it a 50k or 70k house.

pyb 10y ago
Well put. If the house, 'valued' by the government at 300k, is actually a '90k' house that will in fact sell for 50k, perhaps it's time to get real, save time and call it a EUR 50k property from the start. Everything sells for the right price. As for the issue of finding a buyer, I am hearing rumours that many Greeks have built up sizeable assets, from not paying very much tax in the last few decades. Many areas in Greece are also popular with European buyers.
- muyuu 10y ago
  Yeah, and then the government will still tax the owner for the full self-assessed amount. Even if the full sale doesn't pay for the tax, and then prosecute you for the unpaid tax. This already happens in many places with property inheritance tax in the EU. All across Southern EU the governments are valuing assets as in the peak of the bubble because it suits them.

sasvari 10y ago

Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. Anything is better than decades of externally enforced austerity crippling a country's spirit as reflected in everything I read these days about Greece. Looking at the democratically elected politicians/governments in Greece in the last decades I don't know where a totally new political leadership [edit: which would be interested and capable of 'rebuilding the country'] should come from. It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now.

crdoconnor 10y ago
>It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now. That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity. In both cases it wasn't even as if the parties didn't want to end austerity but when they tried they were basically threatened with economic catastrophe (shutting payment systems in the entire country, indefinitely). Last year they fired a kind of warning shot. Greek banks had to shut down for six days, cash machines only let you remove a small amount each day, capital controls were imposed. That could have been continued indefinitely. Eventually Syriza wilted. Their mistake was assuming in the negotiations that the Troika's primary concern was getting their debts repaid. It wasn't. They just wanted greece to knuckle under and do as it was told. The problem isn't than an elected government couldn't extricate the country from the Euro and return the country to growth, it's that kind of project would take 9 months minimum and during that entire time the country is vulnerable to the ECB flipping the switch on their economy and "turning off" Greek savings and "turning off" international trade and effecting instant 3rd world status (and not even 'good' third world status). In effect, Greece has been converted into a puppet state that rubber stamps European Commission and ECB legislation. They issue diktats to Greece who rubber stamps them, and they're not even really pretending it's about getting paid back any more.
- tormeh 10y ago

StanislavPetrov 10y ago

>Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. That was actually the best of Greece's bad choices, but they were strongarmed by the IMF and the ECB into not defaulting and pulling a brick out of the financial pyramid scheme upon which western society is based.

akytt 10y ago
Ok, a revolution. But, praytell, who would finance that new fresh government? There's little capital in the country, people don't evidently like the idea to start paying taxes all of a sudden and you just screwed over a large group of investors. That money is going to be way more expensive than the average market yield. That means your economic growth will likely not cover the interest payments. Which means you'd take on new loans to pay back your old ones with interest. And we'll be having the exact same conversation in 25 years or so. Yeah, your generation is going to so okish. But the next one will do even worse than you after a fresh round of damage on Greece reputation on financial markets.
- nugget 10y ago
  No financing is required unless you want to run a budget deficit. Greece is one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. They could use that sector as the cornerstone to rebuild. They would be poor (to start) but they would also be free. I think this is their destiny eventually but I don't think the pain is bad enough yet.

Bartweiss 10y ago

I think the answer to your first question is "if you put it up at public auction tomorrow, that would be totally illegal." There are huge legal barriers to property sales, including requirements for energy audits and certification that the construction is wholly legal - which is probably isn't. Just like in the US, a great many safe and livable Greek properties violate zoning laws. Real assets are salable, but in this case the government has crippled the market's ability to clear. All of which just reinforces your last point; the existing legal structure pretty much guarantees perpetual economic crisis.

honkhonkpants 10y ago
Zoning laws in the US don't govern anything other than the initial certificate of occupancy in most US states. They are irrelevant for subsequent sales.
- bonzini 10y ago
  In order to sell (in Italy) the building must have the same plan (roofs, doors, windows, walls, ...) that was declared when it was built first. You can pay a fine if there are differences, but only if the actual plan obeys the zoning laws now and would have obeyed them at the time the certificate of occupancy was last released.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  Yes, that was my point but I think I was unclear. Like the US, Greece has many properties which would be illegal to build from scratch under existing zoning laws. Unlike the US, Greece has pushed a law requiring that all properties be certified as "having no illegal constructions" prior to sale. I'm trying to imagine the crisis you would get if you enforced zoning laws against secondary sales in the US. At the very least, all of Boston would be uninhabitable.

return0 10y ago

> Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership A large part of our electorate thinks like that, and thus came Syriza (Syriza may be a household name, but not everyone knows that it stands for "Coalition of radical-left parties"). Yet when push comes to shove syriza turned instantly back into austerity. The electorate acted like an angry teenager. Magic bullets don't exist.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]