13 ms·

My own burning hatred towards Apple runs a little hotter than most, and I have been seriously googling (and trying) alternatives since 2012. That was when my $

by veidr 10y ago

My own burning hatred towards Apple runs a little hotter than most, and I have been seriously googling (and trying) alternatives since 2012. That was when my $9000 Mac Pro — which had been a great machine, and still was, except for the little detail about not having been updated since 2009 and thus being stuck with USB 2 (!!!) to say nothing of Thunderbolt and any kind of modern accoutrements — started to feel like a personal affront, a sneering fuck you directed at not just me, but everybody remotely like me. (Wow!!! Déjà vu bro!!) Nevertheless, I didn't switch then, and all of us complainers won't switch now either. Because the fucking OS. I've tried every iteration of Ubuttnu, CentOS, and FreeBSD since. Even OpenWhatever, before the goblins bought it. I have Thinkpads and Dell XPS "Developer Editions" and a drawer full of other crap like that. Executive summary: it's all garbage time. It's like going back 10+ years. Nothing works right, on any of them. Copy/paste, batteries, wireless networking, drag and drop, high-res displays, multilingual input, even like fucking word processing and email and image editors and terminal programs... it's all like Mac OS X Jaguar level. We can't give Apple the finger, even though we want to (and definitely after last week, we all want to) because there literally isn't an OS in the world that can touch Mac OS for general-purpose workstation/laptop use. (For niche and limited-purpose, yes, there are options.) Elementary OS is a fucking joke. Every OS mentioned disparagingly above is a better choice for almost any purpose. But those are still horrible. Apple's OS advantage is what lets them say "Fuck you peons, here's some 3 year old technology and a bag of dongles, that'll be $4000." But we're mostly all gonna buy the new shitty MacBook Hipster, or gut it out with our old ones, until a better fucking OS happens. And that won't be soon — it's not even remotely on the horizon.

tempodox 10y ago
I suspect the political-correctness dogs around here might bark at your wording, but I still think you've nailed it.
highace 10y ago
Windows? It's really not that bad.
- javajosh 10y ago
  I can see the marketing now. "Switch back to Windows: it's really not that bad."
  - talmand 10y ago
    I thought that was the marketing for Windows 7 after the Vista fiasco.
  - WayneBro 10y ago
    Why would they say that? They could simply point out all the things that you can do on Windows that you cannot do on macOS because Apple will not let you.
- kbenson 10y ago
  I would go so far as saying it's actually rather good now, and I replaced the Windows OS on every laptop and workstation I got from 1999 (Slackware :) to 2013 with Linux and a highly customized FVWM config, so I consider myself having a high bar. Although I did use a Mac as a workstation for a couple years ~ 2010, and found that particularly trying, so that may factor in to how people receive my assessment. It was close to what I wanted, but still far enough away to just generally annoy me by not being configurable enough to actually do what I wanted.
- paultopia 10y ago
  I've been dying for details about Windows 10 and the linux subsystem, and don't actually know anyone who uses it for serious work. Is it actually a replacement for the BSD-based goodness of OSX? Do you get GCC, Make, instantly-functional Python, etc. etc. etc.? Or are there a ton of rough edges? Seriously considering jumping ship to Microsoft and buying a Surface here...
  - soneil 10y ago
    It's certainly worth playing with, but I'm not sure I'd depend on it actually working for any given task yet. YMMV of course, but you really want to give it a spin before you put any purchasing choices behind it. e.g., for my uses, I am constantly running into 'rough edges'. Huge swathes of /proc are missing, which breaks a lot of tools I simply expect to work. As an example, I have a very simple script for tooling with my raspberry pis. It does an ipv6 broadcast ping (ff02::1) on my ethernet interface, and ssh's to the address that returns. Nice easy way to solve the chicken & egg of sshing to a device that has no address configured yet. On 'Bash on Ubuntu on Windows', it fails because I can't use the -I(interface) option with either ping or ping6 - setsockopt(SO_BINDTODEVICE): Protocol not available. (and you can't broadcast without that, because the broadcast address is the same on every interface, so it can't figure it out itself). Then I can't list my own IP address, either the new way (ip addr show - SO_SNDBUF: Invalid Argument) or the traditional way (ifconfig - /proc/net/dev doesn't exist), which was my script's other requirement - because if I broadcast on my own interfaces, I'll also reply to them, so I need to know my own address to exclude it from the replies. Most of this may be very situational, or may be me doing things the wrong way, and may not affect what you expect to run on a linux subsystem. But it did hammer home for me quite quickly, that this isn't a unix environment - it's a very shallow veneer.
erikbye 10y ago
What I find really laughable is when people say macOS Sierra or the new MBP2016 is underwhelming, and then they start talking about something as inferior as Elementary OS and laptops that doesn’t even have a useable touchpad.
- tomtheelder 10y ago
  You can get laptops with extremely good hardware at a better price than the MBP. For example, Dell's XPS series is the best example. Fantastic screen, fantastic trackpad, good build quality, and equivalent specs despite being a model year behind. In terms of hardware, the MBP is pretty bad value. The OSes are miles behind though.
  - sxg 10y ago
    I've had several Dell laptops over the years (4 from ~2003-2012), and while things may have changed in the last 4 years, I would be very surprised to see even a halfway decent trackpad, build quality, and battery life from Dell. I also have the HP Spectre x360 (from Microsoft Build 2015), which was considered to be one of the best Windows laptops available at the time, and its trackpad is one of the most awful devices I've ever had to use. The rest of the laptop is great (screen, keyboard, build quality, even battery), but if I hadn't gotten the laptop for free, I would've returned it for the trackpad alone.
  - nerraga 10y ago
    I do agree that you can pick up a good linux laptop that will run circles around today's MBP (system76 fully spec'd lemur or gazelle) but, imo the overall industrial design leaves a bit to be desired. I have a Dell XPS Developer edition - I definitely think it's a step in the right direction. I agree with you in terms of screen and build quality. The battery life is mediocre at best. The trackpad isn't terrible but it's certainly not something I'd compare to my MacBook (even a 2010 model). OS complaints aside, mac trackpads really stand out.
  - amirmansour 10y ago
    I feel the need to respond here because in every thread about MBPs people mention the Dell XPS line as an alternative, and after buying one I can NOT recommend it as a good buy. The Dell XPS laptops have got one thing going for them: relatively good build quality. They don't feel or look cheap, which already puts it ahead of most PCs in the market. Just walk into your local Best Buy and see the junk they are selling to people. From my experience the most recent Dell XPS 15" has several issues, but I'll mention the two object and non-anecdotal issues: - They suffer from "coil whine," which is when internal components resonate and cause an audible high frequency noise. It is super annoying, and a huge disappointment for a ~$2k purchase. Even the new Dell XPS 13" which just got refreshed with the new Intel Kaby Lake processors still suffers from this, which shows Dell didn't care to fix a widely documented issue that has been known for a long time. Just Google "dell xps coil whine." - The 4K screen has way too much glare, and they quickly strained my eyes. The low resolution version don't suffer from this, but I imagine most people are getting the 4K touch display. I won't get into the Mac vs Windows vs Linux debate, because you won't be enjoying the XPS with buzzing noises and glares in your eyes with any OS. Ater wasting time with the Dell XPS, I went and happily paid the Apple "premium" for the 2016 MBP. And don't get me started on Thinkpads, they are simply not what they used to be. > MPB is a pretty bad value You show me laptop with the level of hardware/software integration as a MBP, and a no-BS *nix desktop experience, and I promise you I'll be the first one in line to buy one.
ianai 10y ago
The OS market is just too concentrated. If you want a modern OS with decent support you have basically three options: Windows, iOS/Mac, or Android. Even the car industry beats that and no one talks about the car industry leading innovation. (You can add Linux via RedHat and Ubuntu to that list and it's still only four options)
AsyncAwait 10y ago
> Nothing works right, on any of them. Copy/paste, batteries, wireless networking, drag and drop, high-res displays, multilingual input, even like fucking word processing and email and image editors and terminal programs... Can you be more specific? i.e. - copy paste with a highlight+middle mouse button is frankly awesome in GNOME. - Batteries - yeah, Windows laptops usually don't have amazing battery life and it can even be slightly worse under Linux, however if you're working in a mode where you laptop is 99% plugged in and you just need occasionally a couple of hours from it, it's quite doable, which I'd imagine is the use-case for most "workstation" usage scenarios. - wireless networking - works great if you're willing to do a bit of research before buying, instead of just dropping Linux on any garbage PC and expecting it to work flawlessly, (why won't you try that with macOS and report back?) - drag and drop - that seems... highly unlikely, unless you're dragging/dropping from/to some weird, wrapped wine port that doesn't communicate with your desktop - high-res displays - not as good as macOS, but works quite well in GNOME 3 and improving all the time, (far better than Windows) - multilingual input, even like fucking word processing and email and image editors and terminal programs - things like multilingual input work well, word processing works well, but certainly there's no MS Office, (which isn't that great on a Mac either), there's no Photoshop, but I find it strange that Krita, GIMP etc. won't suffice you for many tasks, mail works well and terminal programs work amazingly well as well. In addition gaming on Linux is now miles better than on macOS, in addition to the far superior customisability and superior package management, not to mention not being under the will of a single company that does whatever it feels like that day, which matters to some.
- tomtheelder 10y ago
  > copy paste with a highlight+middle mouse button is frankly awesome in GNOME Oh my gosh, this is my least favorite thing about using gnome! I accidentally paste all the time and can't turn it off particularly easily. Very sad.
  - claudius 10y ago
    It’s a generic feature of X available in all desktop environments (essentially there’s two copy-paste mechanism which you can use independently). Much easier to use than manual C-c C-v, especially if you have a third mouse button also on your laptop.
bischofs 10y ago
Bravo sir, I could not have said it better myself. I purchased a brand new XPS15 ubuntu 14.04 and it was a disaster - The battery lasted about three hours, the $300 graphics card did not function at all because of poor drivers (graphics switching is still theoretical on even user friendly linux os' because of dark age xserver) I had to spend two weeks to get the wifi working by messing around with conf files The concept of hardware/software integration seems to evade the general purpose computing industry to the detriment of us all, I am not sure why someone hasn't built a tightly integrated linux laptop yet. At this point the GUIS look pretty decent and there is plenty of software (most people only use browsers anyway) we just need to get the basics working well.
- tolger 10y ago
  Did the machine come with Ubuntu out of the box, or did you install it yourself? That is one of the reasons my company went with System76. They ship with Ubuntu installed and will provide support, drivers for all the hardware, etc. The OryxPro is a nice desktop replacement.
  - bischofs 10y ago
    Shipped with it from dell
    - junnan 10y ago
      Shipped with Dell but wifi not working? I don't buy it.
      - im_down_w_otp 10y ago
        The Broadcom wireless card my XPS 13 (9343) Developer Edition shipped with absolutely does not play well with Linux. Including the Ubuntu 14.04 version it shipped with. It's a known issue, and that's not all. When the machine originally launched there were huge problems with the audio, the trackpad, the bluetooth, and the screen brightness control. You don't have to buy it. I did... for $1100, and now it mostly sits on a shelf. I had to go back to my MacBook Air to get multi-modal work done. I can use Linux as a primary machine if the only thing I ever use is Emacs. The instant I have to venture across different applications and different modes of content creation (docs, code, slide decks, etc.) it's a very bespoke and inefficient experience.
codelitt 10y ago
I'm in the same boat, however, I've always dual-booted Linux using OSx for casual use and Linux for work. I'm not sure what I'll do hardware wise, because the terrible keyboard, lack of: function keys, esc key, and lack of magsafe make it unusable for my workflow. However, I've recently moved from awesomeWM to KDE Plasma as a DE with the Arc Dark theme. I have to say, I finally don't miss OSx with this setup. Very useful, intuitive UX, Alfred like functionality out of the box, very nice UI (not just for linux, for anything!), productive workflow, and gets out of your way when you need to get things done. I still have to find a hardware replacement with a great keyboard, solid trackpad, killer battery, and great display, but my OS concerns are finally resolved. Edit: Repo with screenshots: https://github.com/varlesh/Arc-Dark-KDE https://github.com/varlesh/Arc-Dark-KDE
simula67 10y ago
I have been a Linux user for a long time ( ArchLinux with Xfce ). Recently, I switched jobs and my employer issued me with a Mac. I am having the same problem : the fucking OS. Why do I need to press multiple buttons to see how many applications I have open ? Why does command + tab cycle through every open application ? Why does it not limit itself to the applications in the current space ? What are spaces for anyway ? Why does clicking on an already open application's icon in the dock take me to a random window for the application ? Is there some logic to it ? Is it random ? I think I understand why so many people wax on about tiling window managers now, they have never seen proper window managers. Also why do I have to press Command + whatever when there is a perfectly functional control key on the keyboard ? If I am remoted into a Windows machine now I have to remember to press Control + whatever and revert back to Command + Whatever when I am back on my Mac. Also don't even get me started on the docker networking issues. But it would be unfair for me to blame Apple's OS for most of these faults.
- jmcqk6 10y ago
  >Also why do I have to press Command + whatever when there is a perfectly functional control key on the keyboard ? If I am remoted into a Windows machine now I have to remember to press Control + whatever and revert back to Command + Whatever when I am back on my Mac It's worth pointing out that Apple is the odd one out when it comes to modifier keys. Switching between Linux and Windows, alot of the keyboard shortcuts remain exactly the same. Going from Windows to OS X is a really frustrating from that aspect.
  - wruza 10y ago
    What is really frustrating is to go back. You never get that shortcut consistency like it is between different osx apps. Not to mention that my leftmost finger stopped being sick, because Cmd is just below thumb, not in the dead corner. Many linuxoids even remap control on capslock for that reason.
- markovbling 10y ago
  Protip: use karabiner to bind command to control when you're using a windows VM ;)
vamur 10y ago
Speak for yourself. Linux is a perfectly viable option for non-lazy people, who don't complain about everything. And Windows 10 is excellent too if you don't care about privacy. And it's Ubuntu not Ubuttnu. >> a sneering fuck you directed at not just me, but everybody remotely like me. You overpaid 8k for a machine so why should Apple care? You are clearly going to buy their next product. >>But we're mostly all gonna buy the new shitty MacBook Hipster, or gut it out with our old ones According to Netmarketshare stats at least 2% have abandoned OSX since May 2016.
- thegreenchronic 10y ago
  See Linux people always say that, "it's coz your lazy", "Linux works great". I've tried pretty much every year for the last 10 years to get Linux working. When I go into a brand new elementary installation to try it out, and I can't set the proxy, i shake my head and wonder how anybody can take this OS seriously. Not even that the proxy setting didn't work, I actually couldn't set it in the GUI, it would just wipe my setting. Yeah... linux is not perfectly viable, its a mess.
- abiox 10y ago
  > And it's Ubuntu not Ubuttnu. oh. well, as long as that's been cleared up.
- exadeci 10y ago
  Non-lazy or should I say ok-to-deal-with-all-this-shit http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.th...
- manigandham 10y ago
  > Linux is a perfectly viable option for non-lazy people, who don't complain about everything. And that right there is the problem. Laziness is a good thing, it means the software is being more useful. And you should encourage complaints and fix the problem, which can only make things better for everyone.
mirkules 10y ago
Exactly. In addition to the functional problems you outlined, every Linux GUI I've tried feels fake and plasticky, like it was designed for kids. Gnome is miles ahead of where it used to be, but design-wise it is now at about Windows 98-level. Is there a problem attracting quality graphic designers to open source projects?
- namirez 10y ago
  I think it requires a change of mindset. I've been using Linux exclusively on all of my machines since 2004. I started with KDE and then switched to Gnome 2 and finally Gnome 3. Everything looks clean and normal to me. On the other hand, every time that I need to use Windows (even Windows 10) it feels strange. So I guess it's a matter of perspective.
  - mirkules 10y ago
    You make a good point. Sounds like we are at a crossroads: do we cater to what's familiar or are we trying to attract new users (like this post aims to do)? In my opinion, there is no reason the design can't be made to look better while still maintaining the familiarity (like OS X mavericks did, for better or worse).
jsz0 10y ago
> being stuck with USB 2 FYI there are macOS compatible PCI-E USB 3 cards available. Apparently some of the newest USB-C PCI-E cards work too though I haven't tried it myself.
- blacksmith_tb 10y ago
  Yes, I have 2009 Mac Pro (which cost me all of $300 on craigslist, and now also has 32GB of ram, raided SSDs, and GTX 750Ti ) with a usb3 card in it that works just fine. That said, I have Gnome 3 on my laptops and I find it be pretty practical, too.
phaus 10y ago
As a security analyst I make use of Linux, MacOS, and a few different versions of Windows on a daily basis. They all have issues that I find incredibly frustrating and they all have aspects that I really enjoy. You apparently have a strong preference for MacOS. Lots of people do, but many people dislike it. IMO, there isn't a clear winner.
seanp2k2 10y ago
Build your own dream workstation, run osx86: http://www.osx86project.org http://www.osx86project.org Works with laptops too, just be super careful what you buy. Might work on a Thinkpad P70, not sure.
tremendo 10y ago
I don't know man, I've been more-or-less following this discussion of the last several days, and keep seeing all this "nothing compares to MacOS because... Woo". I work on a fucking mac all day, every day, impatiently waiting to get back home to my Ubuntu desktop. Oh yes, I dislike laptops with their small screens and toy keyboards. I carry this macbook from work back and forth, only to plug it into real peripherals when I actually have to use it. Because no, Photoshop on a coffee shop is not realistic, it's dumb. Also this "Nothing works right, on any of them." Funny, that is what I think of MacOS. I'll restrain from ranting. In short, I absolutely, completely, strongly, disagree with you here.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
wink 10y ago
Have an upvote just for the most creative and heartfelt rant I've read in a while. I'm still amazed at your impression though, as I'm happily using Linux on my laptops and feel like everything works as it should (because I can get my work done).
WayneBro 10y ago
Windows is the better OS. Microsoft never dropped support for power users. They give you options to do everything that you want to do, way more than macOS. It's also got the better business model. That's why every business in the world runs on Windows and not on Apple's OS.
bovermyer 10y ago
That's fine that you love macOS so much. Seriously. I can even forgive the condescension towards other OSes. But believe it or not, people exist that prefer other operating systems. I myself am a gamer as well as a developer, so my primary OS at home is Windows 10. My secondary one which I use for development and writing is Ubuntu 16.10. I recently began abandoning Mac - not because the OS is horrible or Apple is a bad company, but because it no longer syncs with my personal flow. Well, that, and I can no longer justify the pricetag.
make3 10y ago
You're just used to osx. I had the same feeling the other way around. Install a distro and give it some time, you'll get used to it.

by veidr 10y ago

tempodox 10y ago

I suspect the political-correctness dogs around here might bark at your wording, but I still think you've nailed it.

highace 10y ago

Windows? It's really not that bad.

javajosh 10y ago
I can see the marketing now. "Switch back to Windows: it's really not that bad."
- talmand 10y ago
  I thought that was the marketing for Windows 7 after the Vista fiasco.
- WayneBro 10y ago
  Why would they say that? They could simply point out all the things that you can do on Windows that you cannot do on macOS because Apple will not let you.
kbenson 10y ago
I would go so far as saying it's actually rather good now, and I replaced the Windows OS on every laptop and workstation I got from 1999 (Slackware :) to 2013 with Linux and a highly customized FVWM config, so I consider myself having a high bar. Although I did use a Mac as a workstation for a couple years ~ 2010, and found that particularly trying, so that may factor in to how people receive my assessment. It was close to what I wanted, but still far enough away to just generally annoy me by not being configurable enough to actually do what I wanted.
paultopia 10y ago
I've been dying for details about Windows 10 and the linux subsystem, and don't actually know anyone who uses it for serious work. Is it actually a replacement for the BSD-based goodness of OSX? Do you get GCC, Make, instantly-functional Python, etc. etc. etc.? Or are there a ton of rough edges? Seriously considering jumping ship to Microsoft and buying a Surface here...
- soneil 10y ago
  It's certainly worth playing with, but I'm not sure I'd depend on it actually working for any given task yet. YMMV of course, but you really want to give it a spin before you put any purchasing choices behind it. e.g., for my uses, I am constantly running into 'rough edges'. Huge swathes of /proc are missing, which breaks a lot of tools I simply expect to work. As an example, I have a very simple script for tooling with my raspberry pis. It does an ipv6 broadcast ping (ff02::1) on my ethernet interface, and ssh's to the address that returns. Nice easy way to solve the chicken & egg of sshing to a device that has no address configured yet. On 'Bash on Ubuntu on Windows', it fails because I can't use the -I(interface) option with either ping or ping6 - setsockopt(SO_BINDTODEVICE): Protocol not available. (and you can't broadcast without that, because the broadcast address is the same on every interface, so it can't figure it out itself). Then I can't list my own IP address, either the new way (ip addr show - SO_SNDBUF: Invalid Argument) or the traditional way (ifconfig - /proc/net/dev doesn't exist), which was my script's other requirement - because if I broadcast on my own interfaces, I'll also reply to them, so I need to know my own address to exclude it from the replies. Most of this may be very situational, or may be me doing things the wrong way, and may not affect what you expect to run on a linux subsystem. But it did hammer home for me quite quickly, that this isn't a unix environment - it's a very shallow veneer.

erikbye 10y ago

What I find really laughable is when people say macOS Sierra or the new MBP2016 is underwhelming, and then they start talking about something as inferior as Elementary OS and laptops that doesn’t even have a useable touchpad.

tomtheelder 10y ago
You can get laptops with extremely good hardware at a better price than the MBP. For example, Dell's XPS series is the best example. Fantastic screen, fantastic trackpad, good build quality, and equivalent specs despite being a model year behind. In terms of hardware, the MBP is pretty bad value. The OSes are miles behind though.
- sxg 10y ago
  I've had several Dell laptops over the years (4 from ~2003-2012), and while things may have changed in the last 4 years, I would be very surprised to see even a halfway decent trackpad, build quality, and battery life from Dell. I also have the HP Spectre x360 (from Microsoft Build 2015), which was considered to be one of the best Windows laptops available at the time, and its trackpad is one of the most awful devices I've ever had to use. The rest of the laptop is great (screen, keyboard, build quality, even battery), but if I hadn't gotten the laptop for free, I would've returned it for the trackpad alone.
- nerraga 10y ago
  I do agree that you can pick up a good linux laptop that will run circles around today's MBP (system76 fully spec'd lemur or gazelle) but, imo the overall industrial design leaves a bit to be desired. I have a Dell XPS Developer edition - I definitely think it's a step in the right direction. I agree with you in terms of screen and build quality. The battery life is mediocre at best. The trackpad isn't terrible but it's certainly not something I'd compare to my MacBook (even a 2010 model). OS complaints aside, mac trackpads really stand out.
- amirmansour 10y ago
  I feel the need to respond here because in every thread about MBPs people mention the Dell XPS line as an alternative, and after buying one I can NOT recommend it as a good buy. The Dell XPS laptops have got one thing going for them: relatively good build quality. They don't feel or look cheap, which already puts it ahead of most PCs in the market. Just walk into your local Best Buy and see the junk they are selling to people. From my experience the most recent Dell XPS 15" has several issues, but I'll mention the two object and non-anecdotal issues: - They suffer from "coil whine," which is when internal components resonate and cause an audible high frequency noise. It is super annoying, and a huge disappointment for a ~$2k purchase. Even the new Dell XPS 13" which just got refreshed with the new Intel Kaby Lake processors still suffers from this, which shows Dell didn't care to fix a widely documented issue that has been known for a long time. Just Google "dell xps coil whine." - The 4K screen has way too much glare, and they quickly strained my eyes. The low resolution version don't suffer from this, but I imagine most people are getting the 4K touch display. I won't get into the Mac vs Windows vs Linux debate, because you won't be enjoying the XPS with buzzing noises and glares in your eyes with any OS. Ater wasting time with the Dell XPS, I went and happily paid the Apple "premium" for the 2016 MBP. And don't get me started on Thinkpads, they are simply not what they used to be. > MPB is a pretty bad value You show me laptop with the level of hardware/software integration as a MBP, and a no-BS *nix desktop experience, and I promise you I'll be the first one in line to buy one.

ianai 10y ago

The OS market is just too concentrated. If you want a modern OS with decent support you have basically three options: Windows, iOS/Mac, or Android. Even the car industry beats that and no one talks about the car industry leading innovation. (You can add Linux via RedHat and Ubuntu to that list and it's still only four options)

AsyncAwait 10y ago

> Nothing works right, on any of them. Copy/paste, batteries, wireless networking, drag and drop, high-res displays, multilingual input, even like fucking word processing and email and image editors and terminal programs... Can you be more specific? i.e. - copy paste with a highlight+middle mouse button is frankly awesome in GNOME. - Batteries - yeah, Windows laptops usually don't have amazing battery life and it can even be slightly worse under Linux, however if you're working in a mode where you laptop is 99% plugged in and you just need occasionally a couple of hours from it, it's quite doable, which I'd imagine is the use-case for most "workstation" usage scenarios. - wireless networking - works great if you're willing to do a bit of research before buying, instead of just dropping Linux on any garbage PC and expecting it to work flawlessly, (why won't you try that with macOS and report back?) - drag and drop - that seems... highly unlikely, unless you're dragging/dropping from/to some weird, wrapped wine port that doesn't communicate with your desktop - high-res displays - not as good as macOS, but works quite well in GNOME 3 and improving all the time, (far better than Windows) - multilingual input, even like fucking word processing and email and image editors and terminal programs - things like multilingual input work well, word processing works well, but certainly there's no MS Office, (which isn't that great on a Mac either), there's no Photoshop, but I find it strange that Krita, GIMP etc. won't suffice you for many tasks, mail works well and terminal programs work amazingly well as well. In addition gaming on Linux is now miles better than on macOS, in addition to the far superior customisability and superior package management, not to mention not being under the will of a single company that does whatever it feels like that day, which matters to some.

tomtheelder 10y ago
> copy paste with a highlight+middle mouse button is frankly awesome in GNOME Oh my gosh, this is my least favorite thing about using gnome! I accidentally paste all the time and can't turn it off particularly easily. Very sad.
- claudius 10y ago
  It’s a generic feature of X available in all desktop environments (essentially there’s two copy-paste mechanism which you can use independently). Much easier to use than manual C-c C-v, especially if you have a third mouse button also on your laptop.

bischofs 10y ago

Bravo sir, I could not have said it better myself. I purchased a brand new XPS15 ubuntu 14.04 and it was a disaster - The battery lasted about three hours, the $300 graphics card did not function at all because of poor drivers (graphics switching is still theoretical on even user friendly linux os' because of dark age xserver) I had to spend two weeks to get the wifi working by messing around with conf files The concept of hardware/software integration seems to evade the general purpose computing industry to the detriment of us all, I am not sure why someone hasn't built a tightly integrated linux laptop yet. At this point the GUIS look pretty decent and there is plenty of software (most people only use browsers anyway) we just need to get the basics working well.

tolger 10y ago
Did the machine come with Ubuntu out of the box, or did you install it yourself? That is one of the reasons my company went with System76. They ship with Ubuntu installed and will provide support, drivers for all the hardware, etc. The OryxPro is a nice desktop replacement.
- bischofs 10y ago
  Shipped with it from dell
  - junnan 10y ago
    Shipped with Dell but wifi not working? I don't buy it.
    - im_down_w_otp 10y ago
      The Broadcom wireless card my XPS 13 (9343) Developer Edition shipped with absolutely does not play well with Linux. Including the Ubuntu 14.04 version it shipped with. It's a known issue, and that's not all. When the machine originally launched there were huge problems with the audio, the trackpad, the bluetooth, and the screen brightness control. You don't have to buy it. I did... for $1100, and now it mostly sits on a shelf. I had to go back to my MacBook Air to get multi-modal work done. I can use Linux as a primary machine if the only thing I ever use is Emacs. The instant I have to venture across different applications and different modes of content creation (docs, code, slide decks, etc.) it's a very bespoke and inefficient experience.

codelitt 10y ago

I'm in the same boat, however, I've always dual-booted Linux using OSx for casual use and Linux for work. I'm not sure what I'll do hardware wise, because the terrible keyboard, lack of: function keys, esc key, and lack of magsafe make it unusable for my workflow. However, I've recently moved from awesomeWM to KDE Plasma as a DE with the Arc Dark theme. I have to say, I finally don't miss OSx with this setup. Very useful, intuitive UX, Alfred like functionality out of the box, very nice UI (not just for linux, for anything!), productive workflow, and gets out of your way when you need to get things done. I still have to find a hardware replacement with a great keyboard, solid trackpad, killer battery, and great display, but my OS concerns are finally resolved. Edit: Repo with screenshots: https://github.com/varlesh/Arc-Dark-KDE https://github.com/varlesh/Arc-Dark-KDE

simula67 10y ago

I have been a Linux user for a long time ( ArchLinux with Xfce ). Recently, I switched jobs and my employer issued me with a Mac. I am having the same problem : the fucking OS. Why do I need to press multiple buttons to see how many applications I have open ? Why does command + tab cycle through every open application ? Why does it not limit itself to the applications in the current space ? What are spaces for anyway ? Why does clicking on an already open application's icon in the dock take me to a random window for the application ? Is there some logic to it ? Is it random ? I think I understand why so many people wax on about tiling window managers now, they have never seen proper window managers. Also why do I have to press Command + whatever when there is a perfectly functional control key on the keyboard ? If I am remoted into a Windows machine now I have to remember to press Control + whatever and revert back to Command + Whatever when I am back on my Mac. Also don't even get me started on the docker networking issues. But it would be unfair for me to blame Apple's OS for most of these faults.

jmcqk6 10y ago
>Also why do I have to press Command + whatever when there is a perfectly functional control key on the keyboard ? If I am remoted into a Windows machine now I have to remember to press Control + whatever and revert back to Command + Whatever when I am back on my Mac It's worth pointing out that Apple is the odd one out when it comes to modifier keys. Switching between Linux and Windows, alot of the keyboard shortcuts remain exactly the same. Going from Windows to OS X is a really frustrating from that aspect.
- wruza 10y ago
  What is really frustrating is to go back. You never get that shortcut consistency like it is between different osx apps. Not to mention that my leftmost finger stopped being sick, because Cmd is just below thumb, not in the dead corner. Many linuxoids even remap control on capslock for that reason.
markovbling 10y ago
Protip: use karabiner to bind command to control when you're using a windows VM ;)

vamur 10y ago

Speak for yourself. Linux is a perfectly viable option for non-lazy people, who don't complain about everything. And Windows 10 is excellent too if you don't care about privacy. And it's Ubuntu not Ubuttnu. >> a sneering fuck you directed at not just me, but everybody remotely like me. You overpaid 8k for a machine so why should Apple care? You are clearly going to buy their next product. >>But we're mostly all gonna buy the new shitty MacBook Hipster, or gut it out with our old ones According to Netmarketshare stats at least 2% have abandoned OSX since May 2016.

thegreenchronic 10y ago
See Linux people always say that, "it's coz your lazy", "Linux works great". I've tried pretty much every year for the last 10 years to get Linux working. When I go into a brand new elementary installation to try it out, and I can't set the proxy, i shake my head and wonder how anybody can take this OS seriously. Not even that the proxy setting didn't work, I actually couldn't set it in the GUI, it would just wipe my setting. Yeah... linux is not perfectly viable, its a mess.
abiox 10y ago
> And it's Ubuntu not Ubuttnu. oh. well, as long as that's been cleared up.
exadeci 10y ago
Non-lazy or should I say ok-to-deal-with-all-this-shit http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.th...
manigandham 10y ago
> Linux is a perfectly viable option for non-lazy people, who don't complain about everything. And that right there is the problem. Laziness is a good thing, it means the software is being more useful. And you should encourage complaints and fix the problem, which can only make things better for everyone.

mirkules 10y ago

Exactly. In addition to the functional problems you outlined, every Linux GUI I've tried feels fake and plasticky, like it was designed for kids. Gnome is miles ahead of where it used to be, but design-wise it is now at about Windows 98-level. Is there a problem attracting quality graphic designers to open source projects?

namirez 10y ago
I think it requires a change of mindset. I've been using Linux exclusively on all of my machines since 2004. I started with KDE and then switched to Gnome 2 and finally Gnome 3. Everything looks clean and normal to me. On the other hand, every time that I need to use Windows (even Windows 10) it feels strange. So I guess it's a matter of perspective.
- mirkules 10y ago
  You make a good point. Sounds like we are at a crossroads: do we cater to what's familiar or are we trying to attract new users (like this post aims to do)? In my opinion, there is no reason the design can't be made to look better while still maintaining the familiarity (like OS X mavericks did, for better or worse).

jsz0 10y ago

> being stuck with USB 2 FYI there are macOS compatible PCI-E USB 3 cards available. Apparently some of the newest USB-C PCI-E cards work too though I haven't tried it myself.

blacksmith_tb 10y ago
Yes, I have 2009 Mac Pro (which cost me all of $300 on craigslist, and now also has 32GB of ram, raided SSDs, and GTX 750Ti ) with a usb3 card in it that works just fine. That said, I have Gnome 3 on my laptops and I find it be pretty practical, too.

phaus 10y ago

As a security analyst I make use of Linux, MacOS, and a few different versions of Windows on a daily basis. They all have issues that I find incredibly frustrating and they all have aspects that I really enjoy. You apparently have a strong preference for MacOS. Lots of people do, but many people dislike it. IMO, there isn't a clear winner.

seanp2k2 10y ago

Build your own dream workstation, run osx86: http://www.osx86project.org http://www.osx86project.org Works with laptops too, just be super careful what you buy. Might work on a Thinkpad P70, not sure.

tremendo 10y ago

I don't know man, I've been more-or-less following this discussion of the last several days, and keep seeing all this "nothing compares to MacOS because... Woo". I work on a fucking mac all day, every day, impatiently waiting to get back home to my Ubuntu desktop. Oh yes, I dislike laptops with their small screens and toy keyboards. I carry this macbook from work back and forth, only to plug it into real peripherals when I actually have to use it. Because no, Photoshop on a coffee shop is not realistic, it's dumb. Also this "Nothing works right, on any of them." Funny, that is what I think of MacOS. I'll restrain from ranting. In short, I absolutely, completely, strongly, disagree with you here.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

wink 10y ago

Have an upvote just for the most creative and heartfelt rant I've read in a while. I'm still amazed at your impression though, as I'm happily using Linux on my laptops and feel like everything works as it should (because I can get my work done).

WayneBro 10y ago

Windows is the better OS. Microsoft never dropped support for power users. They give you options to do everything that you want to do, way more than macOS. It's also got the better business model. That's why every business in the world runs on Windows and not on Apple's OS.

bovermyer 10y ago

That's fine that you love macOS so much. Seriously. I can even forgive the condescension towards other OSes. But believe it or not, people exist that prefer other operating systems. I myself am a gamer as well as a developer, so my primary OS at home is Windows 10. My secondary one which I use for development and writing is Ubuntu 16.10. I recently began abandoning Mac - not because the OS is horrible or Apple is a bad company, but because it no longer syncs with my personal flow. Well, that, and I can no longer justify the pricetag.

make3 10y ago

You're just used to osx. I had the same feeling the other way around. Install a distro and give it some time, you'll get used to it.