5 ms·

The article mentions the word "tax" 14 times, but it never says what it actually is. How bad is it?

drunken-serval 10y ago
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Greece/Taxes-and-Costs http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Greece/Taxes-and-C... It looks like property tax tops out at 2% annually of assessed value. This is similar to tax rates in Wisconsin, but if they play the same games in Greece that some local governments do, the properties are assessed well above anything you could sell the property for.
- tome 10y ago
  The government should be obliged to purchase the property for the assessed value then.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- Foivos 10y ago
  The goverment defines the "objective value" of the property, which usually is way higher than the market value. The taxation is based on this "objective value"
- ferongr 10y ago
  They probably do. My apartment was made in 1963, 63sqm (670sqft). "Zone price" (i.e. what the government considers the price of 1 sqm of development in a certain region) is 1100 euros, building age multiplier for that is 0.60 so we end with a 660 euro/sqm pric, for a total assessment of 41580 euros. I'd be lucky if I got half of that If I actually tried to sell it at the moment.
  - Luc 10y ago
    One of the comments on the article claims there's 0% tax up to 200k property value. Is this incorrect?
    - ferongr 10y ago
      Yes, since I pay the tax any the property value in my name is just that apartment. All owners have to pay this tax (ENFIA). There are some reductions for unemployed people but no 0% rates.
    - antnisp 10y ago
      If that were true, all but the most expensive apartments would be tax-free. Btw 200k is about 12 times the average annual income.
  - webscaleizfun 10y ago
    What area are you in? Compared to Seattle/Portland/San Diego prices, 40k euros seems cheap for a 1963 670sqft apt. A similar house in Tacoma would run 110k euros right now, and it is a terrible location.
    - ferongr 10y ago
      It's in Kallithea, a generic south-European concrete-jungle urban center. Also, I'm not sure it's fair to compare property values between the US and Greece. The average person working on the private sector would be lucky if he made $10000/year at this point in time.
      - webscaleizfun 10y ago
        Perhaps property value is in line then if 40k euros is an inflated price, I think 110k euros in Tacoma is a price too high for that area myself, the average income down there is around 22k euros a year for a working person [1]. [1] - http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/washington/tacoma http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/washington/tacoma
    - tome 10y ago
      ferongr is in Greece presumably. Compared to UK prices (at least in the south east) 110k euros is phenomenally cheap itself.
      - webscaleizfun 10y ago
        Dude, you can't even buy a crackerbox in Seattle for 300k euros anymore, a 500sqft apartment has gone from 270k euros to 400k euros in the past 2 years, and that is before the 4500 euros you'll pay to go to an "exclusive" wine tasting/auction to bid on the few units that are up for sale.
ferongr 10y ago
A 650 sqft apartment of 1963 vintage is taxed around 250 euros/year
- StavrosK 10y ago
  Which is about a month's rent for it.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - ferongr 10y ago
    I'm not complaining, I don't have any more property on my name and I think it's reasonable.
    - StavrosK 10y ago
      I'm saying that 250 euros might sound low until one considers that it's about 8% of the entire income the property would make when rented.
      - draugadrotten 10y ago
        8% doesn't sound like a high tax level to me. Check out northern Europes 50% income tax levels with 25% VAT and come back later.
        StavrosK 10y ago
        We're talking about property tax. Income tax here is over 50% from the first euro and VAT was 26% last I checked.
- rjsw 10y ago
  Still less than the property tax on a similar sized apartment in the UK (not in London).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
return0 10y ago
It has become bad because greece basically did not have a property tax before 2011. The tax rate is not much higher than what is usual internationally. Given the very low rental yelds however, owning property may have become a bad deal. (Also greece has a high homeownership rate)
simosx 10y ago
The tax would amount to about a month (or two) of rent, if the property was rented. The problem is with properties that are not rented long term.
- webscaleizfun 10y ago
  With austerity feeding on itself as it has been for many years in Greece, the rental market seems to have become flooded with properties. If your citizens have no money, and your economy is shrinking in the double digits every year for years on end, how does anyone do anything economically?
  - simosx 10y ago
    I should probably reply on the overall issue. The economic troubles of Greece have been similar to those of the eastern european countries. The issue with Greece is that the politicians did not take tough measures early in the crisis and the recovery is too far ahead. While other countries reduced their headcount in the public sector, in Greece the headcount remains much the same. I blame the politicians, though the political party that manages to win, is the one that offers not to reduce the public sector headcount. This inability of the politicians is also reflected in the enforcement of the smoking ban. While in public transport there is no smoking, in most restaurants, cafes and elsewhere, the ban is not enforced. Even in the Greek parliament there is smoking, and even the Minister of Health is regularly seen smoking. See https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/52dif3/the_sad_reality_of_smoking_in_greece/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/52dif3/the_sad_real... and weep. Frankly, investors should use the smoking issue in Greece as an indicator whether the country is actually recovering. As long as the smoking ban is not enforced, the recovery is not happening.
andmarios 10y ago
You have to factor in that we have an extremely high unemployment rate (23.5%) and after the austerity measures the basic wage is about 550 euro/month. Many, if not most, companies took advantage of this basic wage change and forced it upon their employees or replaced them with new ones (which can't ask for more). Also another big part of the workforce is on flexible-hours, which means they may go as low as 120 euro per month. The property tax can be about 200 euro / year for relatively small apartments in lower class neighborhoods and rise pretty fast (e.g 800 euros / month) for better neighborhoods. If you own the land (you aren't leaving in an apartment) things go south even faster. Also the property tax doesn't consider any special cases. For example you could have build your house 60 years ago in a remote location, now rich people came to leave around you and you have to pay 6000 euros / year on a 600 euro / month pension.
- imaginenore 10y ago
  So why not accept the inheritance and sell the house?
  - kkapelon 10y ago
    Because nobody would buy it with the current state of economy. And even if somebody did buy it then you would have no place to live.
  - andmarios 10y ago
    Still cheaper than rent. Also you have to factor in that a house is more than money (memories, feeling of safety, etc) unless you are into real estate.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Greece/Taxes-and-Costs http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Greece/Taxes-and-C... It looks like property tax tops out at 2% annually of assessed value. This is similar to tax rates in Wisconsin, but if they play the same games in Greece that some local governments do, the properties are assessed well above anything you could sell the property for.

tome 10y ago
The government should be obliged to purchase the property for the assessed value then.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Foivos 10y ago
The goverment defines the "objective value" of the property, which usually is way higher than the market value. The taxation is based on this "objective value"
ferongr 10y ago
They probably do. My apartment was made in 1963, 63sqm (670sqft). "Zone price" (i.e. what the government considers the price of 1 sqm of development in a certain region) is 1100 euros, building age multiplier for that is 0.60 so we end with a 660 euro/sqm pric, for a total assessment of 41580 euros. I'd be lucky if I got half of that If I actually tried to sell it at the moment.
- Luc 10y ago
  One of the comments on the article claims there's 0% tax up to 200k property value. Is this incorrect?
  - ferongr 10y ago
    Yes, since I pay the tax any the property value in my name is just that apartment. All owners have to pay this tax (ENFIA). There are some reductions for unemployed people but no 0% rates.
  - antnisp 10y ago
    If that were true, all but the most expensive apartments would be tax-free. Btw 200k is about 12 times the average annual income.
- webscaleizfun 10y ago
  What area are you in? Compared to Seattle/Portland/San Diego prices, 40k euros seems cheap for a 1963 670sqft apt. A similar house in Tacoma would run 110k euros right now, and it is a terrible location.
  - ferongr 10y ago
    It's in Kallithea, a generic south-European concrete-jungle urban center. Also, I'm not sure it's fair to compare property values between the US and Greece. The average person working on the private sector would be lucky if he made $10000/year at this point in time.
    - webscaleizfun 10y ago
      Perhaps property value is in line then if 40k euros is an inflated price, I think 110k euros in Tacoma is a price too high for that area myself, the average income down there is around 22k euros a year for a working person [1]. [1] - http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/washington/tacoma http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/washington/tacoma
  - tome 10y ago
    ferongr is in Greece presumably. Compared to UK prices (at least in the south east) 110k euros is phenomenally cheap itself.
    - webscaleizfun 10y ago
      Dude, you can't even buy a crackerbox in Seattle for 300k euros anymore, a 500sqft apartment has gone from 270k euros to 400k euros in the past 2 years, and that is before the 4500 euros you'll pay to go to an "exclusive" wine tasting/auction to bid on the few units that are up for sale.

ferongr 10y ago

A 650 sqft apartment of 1963 vintage is taxed around 250 euros/year

StavrosK 10y ago
Which is about a month's rent for it.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ferongr 10y ago
  I'm not complaining, I don't have any more property on my name and I think it's reasonable.
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    I'm saying that 250 euros might sound low until one considers that it's about 8% of the entire income the property would make when rented.
    - draugadrotten 10y ago
      8% doesn't sound like a high tax level to me. Check out northern Europes 50% income tax levels with 25% VAT and come back later.
      - StavrosK 10y ago
        We're talking about property tax. Income tax here is over 50% from the first euro and VAT was 26% last I checked.
rjsw 10y ago
Still less than the property tax on a similar sized apartment in the UK (not in London).

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

return0 10y ago

It has become bad because greece basically did not have a property tax before 2011. The tax rate is not much higher than what is usual internationally. Given the very low rental yelds however, owning property may have become a bad deal. (Also greece has a high homeownership rate)

simosx 10y ago

The tax would amount to about a month (or two) of rent, if the property was rented. The problem is with properties that are not rented long term.

webscaleizfun 10y ago
With austerity feeding on itself as it has been for many years in Greece, the rental market seems to have become flooded with properties. If your citizens have no money, and your economy is shrinking in the double digits every year for years on end, how does anyone do anything economically?
- simosx 10y ago
  I should probably reply on the overall issue. The economic troubles of Greece have been similar to those of the eastern european countries. The issue with Greece is that the politicians did not take tough measures early in the crisis and the recovery is too far ahead. While other countries reduced their headcount in the public sector, in Greece the headcount remains much the same. I blame the politicians, though the political party that manages to win, is the one that offers not to reduce the public sector headcount. This inability of the politicians is also reflected in the enforcement of the smoking ban. While in public transport there is no smoking, in most restaurants, cafes and elsewhere, the ban is not enforced. Even in the Greek parliament there is smoking, and even the Minister of Health is regularly seen smoking. See https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/52dif3/the_sad_reality_of_smoking_in_greece/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/52dif3/the_sad_real... and weep. Frankly, investors should use the smoking issue in Greece as an indicator whether the country is actually recovering. As long as the smoking ban is not enforced, the recovery is not happening.

andmarios 10y ago

You have to factor in that we have an extremely high unemployment rate (23.5%) and after the austerity measures the basic wage is about 550 euro/month. Many, if not most, companies took advantage of this basic wage change and forced it upon their employees or replaced them with new ones (which can't ask for more). Also another big part of the workforce is on flexible-hours, which means they may go as low as 120 euro per month. The property tax can be about 200 euro / year for relatively small apartments in lower class neighborhoods and rise pretty fast (e.g 800 euros / month) for better neighborhoods. If you own the land (you aren't leaving in an apartment) things go south even faster. Also the property tax doesn't consider any special cases. For example you could have build your house 60 years ago in a remote location, now rich people came to leave around you and you have to pay 6000 euros / year on a 600 euro / month pension.

imaginenore 10y ago
So why not accept the inheritance and sell the house?
- kkapelon 10y ago
  Because nobody would buy it with the current state of economy. And even if somebody did buy it then you would have no place to live.
- andmarios 10y ago
  Still cheaper than rent. Also you have to factor in that a house is more than money (memories, feeling of safety, etc) unless you are into real estate.