12 ms·

> PRICE AS TESTED: $43,905 (base price: $37,495) > can be had for less than the price of the average new car. Emphasis mine and obviously they are factoring i

> PRICE AS TESTED: $43,905 (base price: $37,495) > can be had for less than the price of the average new car. Emphasis mine and obviously they are factoring in the $7,500 tax credit which I guess is fine. I dislike this "price of the average new car" line and it gets repeated a lot. Car manufacturers must love it since it tries to normalize that price as "average" when its not very representative. Grand total "average new car" price that the media is using everywhere is $33,666, but that's only because of the average price of luxury cars and trucks driving the number way, way up. There's a breakdown by sector in KBB's numbers: http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-car-transaction-prices-up-2-percent-march-2016 http://mediaroom.kbb.com/new-car-transaction-prices-up-2-per... Scroll down to the second table for more realistic numbers. At any rate the median new car price, if we could get it, would be much more telling. Sadly I can't find it anywhere. After the tax credit the base model is the average cost of a Mid-size Pickup Truck ($30,045) or average cost of a sports car ($30,712) But well above the average cost of a mid size car ($25,095) or crossover ($27,056) or subcompact ($17,218)

Zigurd 10y ago
There are a ton of systemic subsidies for gasoline powered cars. It isn't irrational or unfair to subsidize a new technology until it has proliferated enough to challenge such an ingrained technology as hydrocarbon fuels. Costs will come down as volume goes up, and early state R&D gets paid down.
- simonsarris 10y ago
  I tried to specifically point out that the tax credit accounting of "cost" is fine by me and that I am including its benefit in my numbers for comparison. My post is not about that.
sndean 10y ago
> At any rate the median new car price, if we could get it, would be much more telling. Sadly I can't find it anywhere. The best I can find is $24000 [1], which sounds believable. But that's not referenced. There's a lot of articles stating that most people actually can't afford new cars [2]. Those articles, and studies they're talking about, are comparing median income and average car price, though. [1] http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buying-everyone-must-follow/ http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buyin... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/your-money/new-cars-are-too-expensive-for-the-typical-family-study-finds.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/your-money/new-cars-are-to...
maximilianburke 10y ago
I wonder if such statements are taking total cost of ownership into account? After subsidies it's more expensive to purchase than similar models and trim lines of gasoline powered cars, but electricity is much cheaper than fuel and you have much less maintenance to do as well. I drive about 800km per month and I'd pay $10/mo in electricity to do that in a Bolt, versus $150/mo in gasoline for my current car.
- Someone1234 10y ago
  > I drive about 800km per month and I'd pay $10/mo in electricity to do that in a Bolt, versus $150/mo in gasoline for my current car. I don't get those figures at all... 800km (500 miles) is approx two-three recharges on the Bolt or about one tank of gas (depending on vehicle). Ignoring how incredibly cheap you are claiming electricity is ($5/full charge), there's nowhere on earth where a full tank of gas costs $150 (or even two full tanks). Something went badly wrong when you came up with these figures.
  - linkregister 10y ago
    The cost of petrol in Canada meets the figures quoted in the parent post. Gasoline is about $1.30/liter around major metros in Canada; a Toyota Corolla gets about 5.7 km per liter (highway). 800km would consume about 140 liters of petrol, about CAD182.
    - ensignavenger 10y ago
      According to the US EPA, a Corolla gets about 30mpg, which Google tells me is 12.75 kpl.
    - Someone1234 10y ago
      > a Toyota Corolla gets about 5.7 km per liter (highway). This article lists it as[0]: 4.9 L/100 km on the highway. That's $52 Canadian, not $182 Canadia. I'm pretty sure that 5.77 km/liter figure you're quoting is 100 km/liter making your figure off by a huge amount. [0] http://driving.ca/toyota/corolla/reviews/road-test/road-test-2014-toyota-corolla-le http://driving.ca/toyota/corolla/reviews/road-test/road-test...
mevile 10y ago
What is amazing to me considering these numbers is that there are enough people buying new cars every year to keep all these car manufacturers around. I'm a pretty decently employed individual, doing better than most my family and I've only bought one new car ten years ago for $15K a Mazda 3. Who are all these people buying new cars all the time?
- cbg0 10y ago
  I think most people are actually leasing and getting a new car when the lease is up.
- flamtap 10y ago
  They're not hard to find. Many people just lease a new vehicle every four or five years.
  - kayoone 10y ago
    Which is essentially burning money. It's funny because the people who usually can't afford a new car, will think they can afford it when leasing, while in the end they spend the exact same amount of money (even more since the leasing corp usually wants to make money too).
    - dougmany 10y ago
      I have looked at it a few times and the lease payments are pretty well correlated with the expected depreciation over that time period. Cars loose a lot of value in the first three years. If you plan to sell the car after three years, leases are not that bad.
    - timcederman 10y ago
      Why is it essentially burning money? Usually leases offer very competitive financial incentives, and are structured so you're paying off the depreciation of the car at an extremely low interest rate. Another way to look at it is you're getting a well priced new car that has a guaranteed buy back price in 3 years, all without putting down any capital (or a small amount).
mywittyname 10y ago
> There's a breakdown by sector in KBB's numbers: > *Kelley Blue Book Average Transaction Prices do not include applied consumer incentives Trucks make up the top 3 best selling vehicles in the US by a large margin -- accounting for 42% of the top 10 best selling vehicles in the US. They are also the most heavily discounted because their margins are so high. And KBB intentionally leaves that information out of their figures. So all those $8-12k discounts on Ford/GM/Dodge pickup-trucks are not even taken into account for that average. Meaning KBB's numbers are complete trash.
mdorazio 10y ago
I did an analysis on this a while ago since no one publishes median figures [1]. Average base price of the top 20 best selling cars in the US is a good proxy, and that amounts to a bit over $23k. Bolt is obviously way higher than that. Of course, then people go and add several grand worth of upgrades so that base price doesn't reflect the true transaction price very well. Average transaction price in the mass market segment is around $31.5k [1] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-much-does-typical-american-actually-pay-car-michael-dorazio https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-much-does-typical-america...

Zigurd 10y ago

There are a ton of systemic subsidies for gasoline powered cars. It isn't irrational or unfair to subsidize a new technology until it has proliferated enough to challenge such an ingrained technology as hydrocarbon fuels. Costs will come down as volume goes up, and early state R&D gets paid down.

simonsarris 10y ago
I tried to specifically point out that the tax credit accounting of "cost" is fine by me and that I am including its benefit in my numbers for comparison. My post is not about that.

sndean 10y ago

> At any rate the median new car price, if we could get it, would be much more telling. Sadly I can't find it anywhere. The best I can find is $24000 [1], which sounds believable. But that's not referenced. There's a lot of articles stating that most people actually can't afford new cars [2]. Those articles, and studies they're talking about, are comparing median income and average car price, though. [1] http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buying-everyone-must-follow/ http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buyin... [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/your-money/new-cars-are-too-expensive-for-the-typical-family-study-finds.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/your-money/new-cars-are-to...

maximilianburke 10y ago

I wonder if such statements are taking total cost of ownership into account? After subsidies it's more expensive to purchase than similar models and trim lines of gasoline powered cars, but electricity is much cheaper than fuel and you have much less maintenance to do as well. I drive about 800km per month and I'd pay $10/mo in electricity to do that in a Bolt, versus $150/mo in gasoline for my current car.

Someone1234 10y ago
> I drive about 800km per month and I'd pay $10/mo in electricity to do that in a Bolt, versus $150/mo in gasoline for my current car. I don't get those figures at all... 800km (500 miles) is approx two-three recharges on the Bolt or about one tank of gas (depending on vehicle). Ignoring how incredibly cheap you are claiming electricity is ($5/full charge), there's nowhere on earth where a full tank of gas costs $150 (or even two full tanks). Something went badly wrong when you came up with these figures.
- linkregister 10y ago
  The cost of petrol in Canada meets the figures quoted in the parent post. Gasoline is about $1.30/liter around major metros in Canada; a Toyota Corolla gets about 5.7 km per liter (highway). 800km would consume about 140 liters of petrol, about CAD182.
  - ensignavenger 10y ago
    According to the US EPA, a Corolla gets about 30mpg, which Google tells me is 12.75 kpl.
  - Someone1234 10y ago
    > a Toyota Corolla gets about 5.7 km per liter (highway). This article lists it as[0]: 4.9 L/100 km on the highway. That's $52 Canadian, not $182 Canadia. I'm pretty sure that 5.77 km/liter figure you're quoting is 100 km/liter making your figure off by a huge amount. [0] http://driving.ca/toyota/corolla/reviews/road-test/road-test-2014-toyota-corolla-le http://driving.ca/toyota/corolla/reviews/road-test/road-test...

mevile 10y ago

What is amazing to me considering these numbers is that there are enough people buying new cars every year to keep all these car manufacturers around. I'm a pretty decently employed individual, doing better than most my family and I've only bought one new car ten years ago for $15K a Mazda 3. Who are all these people buying new cars all the time?

cbg0 10y ago
I think most people are actually leasing and getting a new car when the lease is up.
flamtap 10y ago
They're not hard to find. Many people just lease a new vehicle every four or five years.
- kayoone 10y ago
  Which is essentially burning money. It's funny because the people who usually can't afford a new car, will think they can afford it when leasing, while in the end they spend the exact same amount of money (even more since the leasing corp usually wants to make money too).
  - dougmany 10y ago
    I have looked at it a few times and the lease payments are pretty well correlated with the expected depreciation over that time period. Cars loose a lot of value in the first three years. If you plan to sell the car after three years, leases are not that bad.
  - timcederman 10y ago
    Why is it essentially burning money? Usually leases offer very competitive financial incentives, and are structured so you're paying off the depreciation of the car at an extremely low interest rate. Another way to look at it is you're getting a well priced new car that has a guaranteed buy back price in 3 years, all without putting down any capital (or a small amount).

mywittyname 10y ago

> There's a breakdown by sector in KBB's numbers: > *Kelley Blue Book Average Transaction Prices do not include applied consumer incentives Trucks make up the top 3 best selling vehicles in the US by a large margin -- accounting for 42% of the top 10 best selling vehicles in the US. They are also the most heavily discounted because their margins are so high. And KBB intentionally leaves that information out of their figures. So all those $8-12k discounts on Ford/GM/Dodge pickup-trucks are not even taken into account for that average. Meaning KBB's numbers are complete trash.

mdorazio 10y ago

I did an analysis on this a while ago since no one publishes median figures [1]. Average base price of the top 20 best selling cars in the US is a good proxy, and that amounts to a bit over $23k. Bolt is obviously way higher than that. Of course, then people go and add several grand worth of upgrades so that base price doesn't reflect the true transaction price very well. Average transaction price in the mass market segment is around $31.5k [1] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-much-does-typical-american-actually-pay-car-michael-dorazio https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-much-does-typical-america...