5 ms·

Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback. News flash: world doesn't revolve aroun

by illuminati1911 10y ago

Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback. News flash: world doesn't revolve around hacker news. Let's be honest for a moment. Apple has never in the history been the one to wait for market to adapt to some new technology. They have been the one who immediately puts it on their products and gets rid of the old standards. Everybody has known this for years so this really shouldn't surprise anyone. Generally speaking whether you like it or not, no one really cares if the ESC button is on the touchbar instead of being traditional physical button. Even fewer people care if there are ridiculous 32GB models available when most devs dont even need 16GB. Not to mention average consumers. If Apple would give you guys 32GB option then people would cry why they can't get 64GB option. If the new MacBook wouldn't have touchbar then people would complain why Apple isn't innovating anymore etc. What Apple is doing with their new MacBook is what Apple has been doing with their products for decades. If you don't like it feel free to switch to other laptops and run Win10 or Linux. But we all know you won't. You'll buy this MacBook sooner or later, then in 2018 when Apple releases new models you'll be here complaining about something again and you'll still buy that one as well.

alanfranzoni 10y ago
At the same time, developers are often power users that are willing to shed a good amount of money for a decent laptop, and will recommend Macs to friends and famility. It was around 2009-2012 that about 50% of laptops at most developer conferences were Macbook/Macbook pros; I've seen the (perceived) percentage declining since. Do you really think the "average user" would spend $1500-2500 for a laptop? The Macbook Pro is for Pro users. Let them work as pros.
mrzool 10y ago
In fact, the only thing I don't like about this utterly brilliant piece is that it revolves only around developers. It would have been a much stronger statement if only :%s/developers/professionals.
- idlewords 10y ago
  You're right—point taken!
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- nicky0 10y ago
  How would you define 'professionals' in this context? Professonal what? It seems the definition is "anyone for whom this product is unsuitable", as in "well this laptop may be OK for [x] but for a real professional like me it is a joke".
  - mrzool 10y ago
    Well, the categories which the MBP is supposedly targeted to: graphic/web designers, photographers, musicians, artists, filmmakers and makers of any kind. Of course that includes developers. Seems to me that the new features appeal more to the casual user who uses its laptop for leisure (your [x]) than the professional.
  - angry_octet 10y ago
    Musicians need ports, and already have gear to lug around; they don't need more dongles. A single standard usb 3 port would have gone a long way. It is also a massive pain when someone wants to give you something on a usb stick. Same goes for people in publishing and other content creation industries. People who want to plug an external monitor in to give a ppt without needing a special dongle.
    - nicky0 10y ago
      This is your definition of "professionals"? People who use USB sticks, and external monitors for ppt?
      - idlewords 10y ago
        That is a perfectly sensible definition of actual professional use. Not two days ago I presented at a conference where I had to plug an HDMI cable into my laptop, and in the middle of setting that up, I transferred over a backup copy of my presentation to the house laptop on a USB stick. Now maybe I am not a professional in your eyes. But I was wearing a suit!
qwerta 10y ago
But world does revolve around developers. We are reason why companies like Apple are successful. And if even cheap Chromebook provides better experience, than it is time to move on. MacBook Pro today actually has some competition, Dell XPS is very nice machine.
idlewords 10y ago
My dreams are simple. I want to be able to put movies and TV shows on a thumb drive, and put that in a TV and play it. I want to not have to buy a new computer because I tripped over a power cable. I want to be able to type for more than a few minutes without my hands hurting. I believe I share these dreams with a lot of people who aren't developers.
- baddox 10y ago
  It sounds like a very cheap laptop would work great for those requirements. Perhaps a used older generation MacBook Air or MacBook Pro.
  - idlewords 10y ago
    Yeah, and depending on how the keyboard feels on this new beast, I might just stick with the old MBP. But the thing is, it would be really cool to enjoy the technical improvements without giving up the basics. I played with a MacBook a few weeks ago, and the picture and built-in speakers were sensational. It was an amazing piece of engineering. And I had to return it because in their obsession with thinness, Apple had made it impossible for my gorilla hands to type on. It would be nice to get a work laptop that had those strict improvements in it too, without having to sacrifice so much usability. That used to be the MBP upgrade experience. Once in a while you had to mourn something useful—the loss of an ethernet jack, for example. But mostly you got a lighter, faster machine with a better screen and battery life. This upgrade is far more drastic and the first time the trade-off doesn't seem worthwhile. It's like design puritans took over the company.
    - mal808 10y ago
      You should check out the dell percision series. http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m5510-workstation/pd?ref=PD_OC http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m5510-workstatio...
aikah 10y ago
> Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback Sure, and developers should stop buying a brand that don't care about them too. That way everybody is happy. Apple can sell luxury goods and developers can shop elsewhere. Nothing of value will be lost.
- t27 10y ago
  > Nothing of value will be lost. Except for loss in revenue for Apple. Most tech companies right now prefer to buy Macs for devs because of the costs[1] and devs like it because of the versatility. If devs wont prefer Macs, it seems unlikely that the companies will also keep buying them in bulk [1] - http://www.businessinsider.in/Macs-cost-one-third-as-much-as-Windows-PCs-for-companies-to-run-says-IBMs-IT-guy/articleshow/54967354.cms http://www.businessinsider.in/Macs-cost-one-third-as-much-as...
exergy 10y ago
To me, the touch bar is the lesser of the two sins that Apple committed with these pro models. So many of your 'typical' mac users need a proper keyboard. People writing long articles or novels, developers, obviously, even people working on writing reports or theses they all need a good keyboard. Typing is fundamental, and key travel makes a huge difference in the feel of it. Every review I've read of the single-port macbook suggests that while you can get sort of used to it, it's never as good as the older macbooks.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- rahkiin 10y ago
  The key travel in the new MBP is larger than in the singleport MB, as per presentation.
  - pritambaral 10y ago
    By how much though? Knowing Apple, it might be larger by only 0.1mm. That wouldn't afford any noticeable benefit though.
- piva00 10y ago
  People writing long articles or novels don't run a MBP, they used the Air or now the normal MacBook, you don't need a Pro machine for that.
  - pritambaral 10y ago
    > or now the normal MacBook Which also has the same Butterfly keyboard, or rather the previous version of it; and according to Apple, a less "better" version of it.
  - idlewords 10y ago
    People who work on pro machines do a lot of writing. I'm ready to bet that everyone in this thread does a lot of writing. Note that the keyboard on the MacBook is even worse than the one on the new MBP.
onion2k 10y ago
Apple have locked developers in to the Apple ecosystem if they want to write apps for Apple devices. You can't build an app for iOS or OSX on a Windows or a Linux machine. If there's a large exodus of developers away from Apple devices then there'll be a resulting drop in the number of apps available in their app stores. That would ultimately damage Apple's appeal to other users. You're absolutely right that Macbooks aren't specifically for developers, but releasing a laptop that developers generally don't feel is appealing to them could be really damaging to Apple's ecosystem.
- anfogoat 10y ago
  > You can't build an app for iOS or OSX on a Windows or a Linux machine. If there's a large exodus of developers away from Apple devices then there'll be a resulting drop in the number of apps available in their app stores. I wonder. I've been running OSX in a KVM guest and it's been surprisingly trouble free and smooth via ARD (remote desktop).
  - karmajunkie 10y ago
    What's the host machine? I was under the impression that OSX would only run on apple hardware in a vm – is that no longer the case?
    - anfogoat 10y ago
      The host is a white box Haswell system so this is not Apple hardware. Sierra _can_ be virtualized on non-Apple PC but you'll need to use a bootloader that supports it and build a customized .iso[1] from the install medium downloaded from AppStore. I believe the same goes for Yosemite and El Capitan. So no, it is no longer the case. It is still prohibited by the EULA though. [1] https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM/blob/master/create_install_iso.sh https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM/blob/master/create_install...
  - thrill 10y ago
    It's been about two years since I asked the question, but Apple refused to license the use of OSX under a VM when the enterprise I worked for needed to setup a number of systems for offshore developers to work with.
visarga 10y ago
> Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback. News flash: world doesn't revolve around hacker news. News flash. Developers are the ones that make a platform worth investing into. Where there's a thriving community of devs, there are interesting useful apps, new ideas, investments and research.
- akhatri_aus 10y ago
  Not all of us developers are complaining.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  I am a developer and really liked the new MBP.
kayoone 10y ago
iOS thrived on Apps, Apps built by talented developers for whom the Mac is the platform of choice. A lot of MacOs' appeal comes from great 3rd party apps as well, the first party stuff on iOS and MacOs is mostly a commodity. In the long run I believe Apple should absolutely listen to the developers/professionals that create amazing content for/on their platform which goes a long way to make the platform desirable for consumers.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  You don't need any of the things people are complaining about for developing iOS apps.
NormlOverrated 10y ago
>But we all know you won't. You'll buy this MacBook sooner or later Try me.
std_throwaway 10y ago
> Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback. News flash: world doesn't revolve around hacker news. The problem is not that Apple makes hardware for non-developers (for which it may actually be a great fit and value). The problem is that Apple stopped making hardware for developers. A group of users which were quite happy with the previous offerings of Apple. There even was a time when the MacBooks were the best value a developer could get for reasonable money. Quite a few key users will make the switch to Windows&Linux based Laptops because Apple does not deliver anymore (not even at a high price point).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

alanfranzoni 10y ago

At the same time, developers are often power users that are willing to shed a good amount of money for a decent laptop, and will recommend Macs to friends and famility. It was around 2009-2012 that about 50% of laptops at most developer conferences were Macbook/Macbook pros; I've seen the (perceived) percentage declining since. Do you really think the "average user" would spend $1500-2500 for a laptop? The Macbook Pro is for Pro users. Let them work as pros.

mrzool 10y ago

In fact, the only thing I don't like about this utterly brilliant piece is that it revolves only around developers. It would have been a much stronger statement if only :%s/developers/professionals.

idlewords 10y ago
You're right—point taken!
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
nicky0 10y ago
How would you define 'professionals' in this context? Professonal what? It seems the definition is "anyone for whom this product is unsuitable", as in "well this laptop may be OK for [x] but for a real professional like me it is a joke".
- mrzool 10y ago
  Well, the categories which the MBP is supposedly targeted to: graphic/web designers, photographers, musicians, artists, filmmakers and makers of any kind. Of course that includes developers. Seems to me that the new features appeal more to the casual user who uses its laptop for leisure (your [x]) than the professional.
- angry_octet 10y ago
  Musicians need ports, and already have gear to lug around; they don't need more dongles. A single standard usb 3 port would have gone a long way. It is also a massive pain when someone wants to give you something on a usb stick. Same goes for people in publishing and other content creation industries. People who want to plug an external monitor in to give a ppt without needing a special dongle.
  - nicky0 10y ago
    This is your definition of "professionals"? People who use USB sticks, and external monitors for ppt?
    - idlewords 10y ago
      That is a perfectly sensible definition of actual professional use. Not two days ago I presented at a conference where I had to plug an HDMI cable into my laptop, and in the middle of setting that up, I transferred over a backup copy of my presentation to the house laptop on a USB stick. Now maybe I am not a professional in your eyes. But I was wearing a suit!

qwerta 10y ago

But world does revolve around developers. We are reason why companies like Apple are successful. And if even cheap Chromebook provides better experience, than it is time to move on. MacBook Pro today actually has some competition, Dell XPS is very nice machine.

idlewords 10y ago

My dreams are simple. I want to be able to put movies and TV shows on a thumb drive, and put that in a TV and play it. I want to not have to buy a new computer because I tripped over a power cable. I want to be able to type for more than a few minutes without my hands hurting. I believe I share these dreams with a lot of people who aren't developers.

baddox 10y ago
It sounds like a very cheap laptop would work great for those requirements. Perhaps a used older generation MacBook Air or MacBook Pro.
- idlewords 10y ago
  Yeah, and depending on how the keyboard feels on this new beast, I might just stick with the old MBP. But the thing is, it would be really cool to enjoy the technical improvements without giving up the basics. I played with a MacBook a few weeks ago, and the picture and built-in speakers were sensational. It was an amazing piece of engineering. And I had to return it because in their obsession with thinness, Apple had made it impossible for my gorilla hands to type on. It would be nice to get a work laptop that had those strict improvements in it too, without having to sacrifice so much usability. That used to be the MBP upgrade experience. Once in a while you had to mourn something useful—the loss of an ethernet jack, for example. But mostly you got a lighter, faster machine with a better screen and battery life. This upgrade is far more drastic and the first time the trade-off doesn't seem worthwhile. It's like design puritans took over the company.
  - mal808 10y ago
    You should check out the dell percision series. http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m5510-workstation/pd?ref=PD_OC http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m5510-workstatio...

aikah 10y ago

> Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback Sure, and developers should stop buying a brand that don't care about them too. That way everybody is happy. Apple can sell luxury goods and developers can shop elsewhere. Nothing of value will be lost.

t27 10y ago
> Nothing of value will be lost. Except for loss in revenue for Apple. Most tech companies right now prefer to buy Macs for devs because of the costs[1] and devs like it because of the versatility. If devs wont prefer Macs, it seems unlikely that the companies will also keep buying them in bulk [1] - http://www.businessinsider.in/Macs-cost-one-third-as-much-as-Windows-PCs-for-companies-to-run-says-IBMs-IT-guy/articleshow/54967354.cms http://www.businessinsider.in/Macs-cost-one-third-as-much-as...

exergy 10y ago

To me, the touch bar is the lesser of the two sins that Apple committed with these pro models. So many of your 'typical' mac users need a proper keyboard. People writing long articles or novels, developers, obviously, even people working on writing reports or theses they all need a good keyboard. Typing is fundamental, and key travel makes a huge difference in the feel of it. Every review I've read of the single-port macbook suggests that while you can get sort of used to it, it's never as good as the older macbooks.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
rahkiin 10y ago
The key travel in the new MBP is larger than in the singleport MB, as per presentation.
- pritambaral 10y ago
  By how much though? Knowing Apple, it might be larger by only 0.1mm. That wouldn't afford any noticeable benefit though.
piva00 10y ago
People writing long articles or novels don't run a MBP, they used the Air or now the normal MacBook, you don't need a Pro machine for that.
- pritambaral 10y ago
  > or now the normal MacBook Which also has the same Butterfly keyboard, or rather the previous version of it; and according to Apple, a less "better" version of it.
- idlewords 10y ago
  People who work on pro machines do a lot of writing. I'm ready to bet that everyone in this thread does a lot of writing. Note that the keyboard on the MacBook is even worse than the one on the new MBP.

onion2k 10y ago

Apple have locked developers in to the Apple ecosystem if they want to write apps for Apple devices. You can't build an app for iOS or OSX on a Windows or a Linux machine. If there's a large exodus of developers away from Apple devices then there'll be a resulting drop in the number of apps available in their app stores. That would ultimately damage Apple's appeal to other users. You're absolutely right that Macbooks aren't specifically for developers, but releasing a laptop that developers generally don't feel is appealing to them could be really damaging to Apple's ecosystem.

anfogoat 10y ago
> You can't build an app for iOS or OSX on a Windows or a Linux machine. If there's a large exodus of developers away from Apple devices then there'll be a resulting drop in the number of apps available in their app stores. I wonder. I've been running OSX in a KVM guest and it's been surprisingly trouble free and smooth via ARD (remote desktop).
- karmajunkie 10y ago
  What's the host machine? I was under the impression that OSX would only run on apple hardware in a vm – is that no longer the case?
  - anfogoat 10y ago
    The host is a white box Haswell system so this is not Apple hardware. Sierra _can_ be virtualized on non-Apple PC but you'll need to use a bootloader that supports it and build a customized .iso[1] from the install medium downloaded from AppStore. I believe the same goes for Yosemite and El Capitan. So no, it is no longer the case. It is still prohibited by the EULA though. [1] https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM/blob/master/create_install_iso.sh https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM/blob/master/create_install...
- thrill 10y ago
  It's been about two years since I asked the question, but Apple refused to license the use of OSX under a VM when the enterprise I worked for needed to setup a number of systems for offshore developers to work with.

visarga 10y ago

> Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback. News flash: world doesn't revolve around hacker news. News flash. Developers are the ones that make a platform worth investing into. Where there's a thriving community of devs, there are interesting useful apps, new ideas, investments and research.

akhatri_aus 10y ago
Not all of us developers are complaining.
pjmlp 10y ago
I am a developer and really liked the new MBP.

kayoone 10y ago

iOS thrived on Apps, Apps built by talented developers for whom the Mac is the platform of choice. A lot of MacOs' appeal comes from great 3rd party apps as well, the first party stuff on iOS and MacOs is mostly a commodity. In the long run I believe Apple should absolutely listen to the developers/professionals that create amazing content for/on their platform which goes a long way to make the platform desirable for consumers.

pjmlp 10y ago
You don't need any of the things people are complaining about for developing iOS apps.

NormlOverrated 10y ago

>But we all know you won't. You'll buy this MacBook sooner or later Try me.

std_throwaway 10y ago

> Some people seem to think that the MacBook is only for developers and Apple is obliged to listen to only their feedback. News flash: world doesn't revolve around hacker news. The problem is not that Apple makes hardware for non-developers (for which it may actually be a great fit and value). The problem is that Apple stopped making hardware for developers. A group of users which were quite happy with the previous offerings of Apple. There even was a time when the MacBooks were the best value a developer could get for reasonable money. Quite a few key users will make the switch to Windows&Linux based Laptops because Apple does not deliver anymore (not even at a high price point).

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]