6 ms·

Actually, we agree completely with this view. We tried going down this path [1], and ultimately concluded it was the wrong direction, for many of the reasons yo

Actually, we agree completely with this view. We tried going down this path [1], and ultimately concluded it was the wrong direction, for many of the reasons you point out here. But Eve is a full programming language. The "humane" aspects are not about making the language more ambiguous, but about changing the focus of tooling from the machine to the human. It's about things as simple as Unicode support for language localization. Or rendering headers in your code. It's about making the syntax and semantics very small and easy to understand. It's about closing the write-compile-test loop, by showing the result of code /in/ the actual code. It's about debugging tools that work with you to solve a problem. We're just saying we don't want to compromise. We want a beautiful, concise, easy to understand language AND we want humane tooling. In order to get that, we had to abandon the traditional imperative programming model, and that comes at a cost. But I think in the long term it will be worth it. [1]: http://incidentalcomplexity.com/2016/06/14/nlqp/ http://incidentalcomplexity.com/2016/06/14/nlqp/

lisper 10y ago
> Or rendering headers in your code Sorry, you lost me right there. If you need headers, you've already run off the rails (no pun intended) IMHO.
- j-pb 10y ago
  Headers as in document headlines and literate programming not as in header files.
  - lisper 10y ago
    Thanks for pointing that out. I was wondering why I was getting so many downvotes.
LoSboccacc 10y ago
so basically Java?
- JBReefer 10y ago
  Good tooling, easy to understand, unambiguous? Sounds like Java. Why can't people just use Java?
  - hairy_man674 10y ago
    Java? What a horrible language.
    - cghendrix 10y ago
      How so? (Just genuinely curious as I always here this) I have asked the Java developers at my job if they have this common mindset and they don't seem to agree. I don't work with Java that much so I'm just honestly curious.
      - quantumhobbit 10y ago
        Java is a great virtual machine, a good collection of open source libraries, an ok language, and a nightmare collection of best practices and people who enforce them. I don't have a beef with the language, it is the developers who have never programmed in another language and still think that FactoryBuilderImpls are a good idea. They have never ventured outside of an IDE, but insist that Python isn't a real programming language. I can program Java but I never want to program with "Java developers" if I can help it.
        bdamm 10y ago
        There's certainly no shortage of crummy developers layering on useless abstractions for no reason other than dogma. Don't worry, soon all those young and thoughtless developers will be coding in nothing but JavaScript, and the crufty Java die-hards will be pumping prime contracts to migrate old Java business engines well into retirement.
        hairy_man674 10y ago
        That in a nutshell is why I said Java is a horrible language. That said, people with a strong preference for a particular language are comparable to religious fanatics. A good engineer doesn't let language preference and emotional attachment to something get in the way of building something better. If learning something else is too uncomfortable or seems unecessary to you then you are no better than a religious person. btw, before I get downvoted the "religious person" analogy was what a senior developer said of me when I was a .NET guy a long time ago. note: the same applies to the religious sects who worship libraries and frameworks (Mostly front-end Javscript web developers)
coldnebo 10y ago
I was initially confused by the "human" line too, but once I looked at the video and the examples I understood what you guys are trying to do. There are a lot of really interesting approaches there. I really like the ideas! I think a lot of service devs (read: stateless) won't get it. But people who code front end and deal with business logic daily might find something to love in here. Worth discussing if nothing else! You got my star!
dgudkov 10y ago
>changing the focus of tooling from the machine to the human >It's about debugging tools that work with you to solve a problem. >we want humane tooling I know how hard it is to explain what exactly your product does. I myself constantly struggle with this. Eve is an interesting concept that is worth a closer look and discussion. But you guys need to learn how to explain its benefits using a less ambiguous language.
- anewhnaccount 10y ago
  Well the linked page and videos explain the benefits of the current release pretty well. They should take less than 30 minutes to view. I think part of the reason they use ambiguous language is they see this programming language as the first step in achieving a series of more ambitious goals. They've also been writing specific prototypes which they also believe work toward these goals for the last two years.
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
...So, literate Smalltalk. Or literate Lisp.

lisper 10y ago

> Or rendering headers in your code Sorry, you lost me right there. If you need headers, you've already run off the rails (no pun intended) IMHO.

j-pb 10y ago
Headers as in document headlines and literate programming not as in header files.
- lisper 10y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out. I was wondering why I was getting so many downvotes.

LoSboccacc 10y ago

so basically Java?

JBReefer 10y ago
Good tooling, easy to understand, unambiguous? Sounds like Java. Why can't people just use Java?
- hairy_man674 10y ago
  Java? What a horrible language.
  - cghendrix 10y ago
    How so? (Just genuinely curious as I always here this) I have asked the Java developers at my job if they have this common mindset and they don't seem to agree. I don't work with Java that much so I'm just honestly curious.
    - quantumhobbit 10y ago
      Java is a great virtual machine, a good collection of open source libraries, an ok language, and a nightmare collection of best practices and people who enforce them. I don't have a beef with the language, it is the developers who have never programmed in another language and still think that FactoryBuilderImpls are a good idea. They have never ventured outside of an IDE, but insist that Python isn't a real programming language. I can program Java but I never want to program with "Java developers" if I can help it.
      - bdamm 10y ago
        There's certainly no shortage of crummy developers layering on useless abstractions for no reason other than dogma. Don't worry, soon all those young and thoughtless developers will be coding in nothing but JavaScript, and the crufty Java die-hards will be pumping prime contracts to migrate old Java business engines well into retirement.
      - hairy_man674 10y ago
        That in a nutshell is why I said Java is a horrible language. That said, people with a strong preference for a particular language are comparable to religious fanatics. A good engineer doesn't let language preference and emotional attachment to something get in the way of building something better. If learning something else is too uncomfortable or seems unecessary to you then you are no better than a religious person. btw, before I get downvoted the "religious person" analogy was what a senior developer said of me when I was a .NET guy a long time ago. note: the same applies to the religious sects who worship libraries and frameworks (Mostly front-end Javscript web developers)

coldnebo 10y ago

I was initially confused by the "human" line too, but once I looked at the video and the examples I understood what you guys are trying to do. There are a lot of really interesting approaches there. I really like the ideas! I think a lot of service devs (read: stateless) won't get it. But people who code front end and deal with business logic daily might find something to love in here. Worth discussing if nothing else! You got my star!

dgudkov 10y ago

>changing the focus of tooling from the machine to the human >It's about debugging tools that work with you to solve a problem. >we want humane tooling I know how hard it is to explain what exactly your product does. I myself constantly struggle with this. Eve is an interesting concept that is worth a closer look and discussion. But you guys need to learn how to explain its benefits using a less ambiguous language.

anewhnaccount 10y ago
Well the linked page and videos explain the benefits of the current release pretty well. They should take less than 30 minutes to view. I think part of the reason they use ambiguous language is they see this programming language as the first step in achieving a series of more ambitious goals. They've also been writing specific prototypes which they also believe work toward these goals for the last two years.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

...So, literate Smalltalk. Or literate Lisp.