10 ms·

Technology details aside, I don't understand why Touch Bar is such a big deal. Sure it's shiny and responds to touch, but I don't want to be looking at keyboard

Technology details aside, I don't understand why Touch Bar is such a big deal. Sure it's shiny and responds to touch, but I don't want to be looking at keyboard and hunt for commands that are sometimes there. I don't want another monitor with additional information, I only have one set of eyes.

Beowolve 10y ago
I'm still convinced this is an excuse to bring Touch ID to a Mac, and to allow for more secure login. I don't think the Touch Bar is useful for people who are already adept at not looking at their keyboard. But who knows...
- 24gttghh 10y ago
  I was under the impression that Touch ID is actually less secure than a sufficiently complex passcode/phrase. It's certainly easier to find a good fingerprint from someone than it is to read their mind and extract a password.
  - criddell 10y ago
    Security measures are defined around threat models. People worried about the government getting access to their electronics probably won't rely on Touch ID. People worried about their stoner roommate using their machine can probably rely on Touch ID.
    - drivingmenuts 10y ago
      Especially since a password can't be forced out of you by the government, but they can force you to touch your phone. Touch ID is not protected by the Fifth Amendment, apparently.
    - 24gttghh 10y ago
      I agree; I just like to remind folks of that fact :)
  - acdha 10y ago
    The flip side is that entering a strong password is tedious and incentivizes people to use shorter, easier to type passwords or disable / increase the time delay for things like their screensaver locks. That means that the question is really whether Touch ID is more secure than the passwords which people will actually use in practice. As criddell noted, how you answer that is going to come down to threat models and resources. Biometrics really put you into some pretty different trade-offs: e.g. a camera can record you typing in your password but not your fingerprint, but someone can force you to touch the sensor or maybe pull it off of a glass, a password can be faked safely while someone watches you but that fake fingerprint is much riskier, etc.
M4v3R 10y ago
Contrary to the HN demography, most people are not touch-typists, and most don't use keyboard shortcuts. Having an interactive, contextual bar of action buttons makes actions that normally require several clicks more discoverable to them.
- vmasto 10y ago
  There was a time (up until yesterday that is) where the Pro series was targeted to said HN demographic. I think the amount of criticism is perfectly reasonable.
  - jmkni 10y ago
    It would almost make more sense to put the touchbar on the regular Macbook and a set of proper function keys on the Pro model.
    - ynniv 10y ago
      Not "almost". It would make more sense to put a frivolous toy on the MacBook, and keep function keys and ports on the MBP.
      - Klathmon 10y ago
        Come on, you might not like this, but calling it a "frivolous toy" is condescending at best. As a developer, i'm extremely jealous. I've actually made something somewhat similar[0] with a physical keyboard because the idea of a set of keys that I can have do useful stuff is such a nice idea. I would love it if not only was that set of buttons on my laptop, but that it was programmable and customizable per application (half of the keys on that keyboard only work in my IDE) It might not be for you, but it's not useless. [0]http://i.imgur.com/jQ72mEA.jpg http://i.imgur.com/jQ72mEA.jpg Cut me some slack on the button functions themselves, I actually don't use a lot of them and want to re-do the layout for a while to get rid of them, but just haven't gotten around to doing it.
        10y ago
mikeash 10y ago
I don't see the big deal with looking at it. It's right below the bottom of the monitor.
- drivingmenuts 10y ago
  The following is opinion only. You lose efficiency when redirecting your vision from the screen to the keyboard. It's the same problem with touchscreens - mouse and keyboard operate on the same plane of motion. By touching the screen, you're breaking that plane. Additionally, you have to use cognitive resources to actually locate the button on the screen, rather than muscle memory, since there is no feedback of any sort from touching the screen. The new Surface from MS actually does it right by re-orienting the work plane from vertical to horizontal, because the types of work you do in each orientation are different.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    The keyboard in general, yes. But a strip at the very top of the keyboard, just below the monitor? It's nearly the same as redirecting your vision to the bottom of the screen. It's not the same as looking at the home row to find the H key or whatever.
    - drivingmenuts 10y ago
      Perhaps, but it still requires cognitive resources to locate the area you need to touch. With physical keys, you could rely on muscle memory and touch to delineate the proper key. Now, it's just a smooth strip that you cannot discern one part of from another solely by touch.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        I agree with that. Guiding your fingers by sight rather than by feel is not as good. I don't think it's because you're redirecting your vision, since it's not moving much, but the lack of tactile feedback is still problematic.
joezydeco 10y ago
I see it as a stepping stone to the touch bar becoming the keyboard. You then have a laptop with no moving parts at all (except the lid hinge I guess). Obviously yeah, you want tactile feedback and etc etc etc to make it real (don't know if the Taptic gizmo is the right path), but you're one bit closer to the goal with this.
- oolongCat 10y ago
  Good god that sounds like a nightmare. Its already a pain to use touch-pads on some laptop models where if you rest your wrist on it it will detect it wrong. And to make matters even worse imagine installing drivers for an os not supported by the manufacturer.
  - devrelm 10y ago
    > Its already a pain to use touch-pads on some laptop models where if you rest your wrist on it it will detect it wrong. To switch topics to another new "feature", this was my first thought about the 2x-larger touchpad on the new 15" mbp.
  - rietta 10y ago
    That is a nightmare. I already have a hard enough time typing on the MacBook Pro's keyboard. I use an external mechanical most of the time except when I am away from my desk. I just about get all my real work done at my desk though.
  - joezydeco 10y ago
    Yeah I'm not saying it's a good thing, but considering how Apple keeps trying to make the keyboard thinner and thinner this seems like the logical conclusion.
landhar 10y ago
Watching the apple event and the various demos of the touch bar reminded me of this onion video from 2009: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA I really needed a macbook upgrade (I've been using the same machine since 2008), but I have a feeling that the touch bar will fail and be removed in the next generation of macbooks. But buying the macbook without the touch bar means settling for lesser specs (and given that I'm thinking about buying a machine that would last me another 8 years it feels like a bad choice).
- rietta 10y ago
  Buy a Apple Refurbished MacBook Pro from last generation. Get the discount and the warranty that way. And don't worry about it for 4 years.
  - landhar 10y ago
    Thanks, this actually sounds like the best compromise.
    - slantyyz 10y ago
      If you don't need retina and you want a 15" screen, I'd hunt down a 2012 15" MBP with a 1680x1050 screen. It's the last generation where you could make upgrades with commodity parts. You can even pull out the optical and stick in a second sata drive (but it will kill your battery). The i7 quad cores on those models still hold their own today.
  - iamatworknow 10y ago
    I wholeheartedly agree with this. After a lot of debate and research, I bought the Fall 2013 MBP from Apple refurbished in the middle of 2014. They do an incredible job refurbishing, to the point where there was no way you could tell it was a used device other than it arriving in a nondescript box. Plus, I saved something like $400 off the price of what was still the latest model at the time. In the past two and a half years the only "problem" I've had is that one of the rubber feet came off. It's still got more than enough power for the foreseeable future as well. Definitely recommended.
mstade 10y ago
I don't get this backlash. I'm a developer. I touch type since 20 years back. I haven't used the F-keys in probably just as long. At this point, all I do with those keys is raise/lower the volume/screen brightness. The only key I'll miss is ESC, but I'm sure I'll figure out how to survive.
- ProAm 10y ago
  As a developer you've never debugged and use the F-keys?
  - ch4s3 10y ago
    I've basically never used the F-keys. Are you using them in an IDE?
    - Eridrus 10y ago
      Most (all?) GUI debuggers either in IDEs or browser dev tools use F-keys to step through code.
      - ch4s3 10y ago
        Fair. I'm pretty click oriented in IntelliJ IDEA, and chrome devtools. I guess if I used IntelliJ more, I'd learn the F-key shortcuts, but I have an external keyboard for most typing, so I still wouldn't miss them on the laptop keyboard... and if I did, I'd just map some virtual buttons. Debugging is slow and deliberate for me, I don't need to touch type for that(personally).
  - vlozko 10y ago
    Actually, never. Most of my work is in Xcode, though I do some Android Studio, PyCharm, and, if I have to, command-line gdb. As a developer working on a Mac for almost 10 years, I genuinely can't recall the last time I ever used a function key.
  - psyc 10y ago
    I do touch type. I do use the F keys with my IDE. I do not touch type the F keys.
talmand 10y ago
My problem with it is that my current work setup involves a keyboard, a mouse, and two monitors that are plugged into the laptop that sits to the side. My laptop monitor is used for company email and messaging. The TouchBar would almost be out of easy reach and would not be useful to me in any way. I would have to wonder how many people are in a similar situation. I guess they could offer an external keyboard with the TouchBar and I could use that.
- landhar 10y ago
  Yes, how the touch bar will work when the focused application is in full screen in a second monitor is anyone's guess...
  - kgwgk 10y ago
    Why would that make any difference?
    - talmand 10y ago
      It wouldn't if you are still using the keyboard on the laptop. Makes me wonder how common it is for someone to use a second monitor off the laptop but still use the laptop's keyboard and trackpad.
      - kgwgk 10y ago
        Maybe I didn't understand his remark. Obviously if you don't use the touchbar it doesn't work. And if you don't use the trackpad it doesn't work, etc.
bluthru 10y ago
Instead of moving a mouse cursor to a toolbar item you can just tap something without repositioning your hand. It's not as fast as someone who has mastered every key combo, but for regular users it should increase productivity.
Raphmedia 10y ago
It's the very same as the contextual ribbon navigation that Microsoft is using but above the keyboard instead of at the top of the screen.
manojlds 10y ago
May be for first few days, but you should get used to the available buttons for apps you use right?

Beowolve 10y ago

I'm still convinced this is an excuse to bring Touch ID to a Mac, and to allow for more secure login. I don't think the Touch Bar is useful for people who are already adept at not looking at their keyboard. But who knows...

24gttghh 10y ago
I was under the impression that Touch ID is actually less secure than a sufficiently complex passcode/phrase. It's certainly easier to find a good fingerprint from someone than it is to read their mind and extract a password.
- criddell 10y ago
  Security measures are defined around threat models. People worried about the government getting access to their electronics probably won't rely on Touch ID. People worried about their stoner roommate using their machine can probably rely on Touch ID.
  - drivingmenuts 10y ago
    Especially since a password can't be forced out of you by the government, but they can force you to touch your phone. Touch ID is not protected by the Fifth Amendment, apparently.
  - 24gttghh 10y ago
    I agree; I just like to remind folks of that fact :)
- acdha 10y ago
  The flip side is that entering a strong password is tedious and incentivizes people to use shorter, easier to type passwords or disable / increase the time delay for things like their screensaver locks. That means that the question is really whether Touch ID is more secure than the passwords which people will actually use in practice. As criddell noted, how you answer that is going to come down to threat models and resources. Biometrics really put you into some pretty different trade-offs: e.g. a camera can record you typing in your password but not your fingerprint, but someone can force you to touch the sensor or maybe pull it off of a glass, a password can be faked safely while someone watches you but that fake fingerprint is much riskier, etc.

M4v3R 10y ago

Contrary to the HN demography, most people are not touch-typists, and most don't use keyboard shortcuts. Having an interactive, contextual bar of action buttons makes actions that normally require several clicks more discoverable to them.

vmasto 10y ago
There was a time (up until yesterday that is) where the Pro series was targeted to said HN demographic. I think the amount of criticism is perfectly reasonable.
- jmkni 10y ago
  It would almost make more sense to put the touchbar on the regular Macbook and a set of proper function keys on the Pro model.
  - ynniv 10y ago
    Not "almost". It would make more sense to put a frivolous toy on the MacBook, and keep function keys and ports on the MBP.
    - Klathmon 10y ago
      Come on, you might not like this, but calling it a "frivolous toy" is condescending at best. As a developer, i'm extremely jealous. I've actually made something somewhat similar[0] with a physical keyboard because the idea of a set of keys that I can have do useful stuff is such a nice idea. I would love it if not only was that set of buttons on my laptop, but that it was programmable and customizable per application (half of the keys on that keyboard only work in my IDE) It might not be for you, but it's not useless. [0]http://i.imgur.com/jQ72mEA.jpg http://i.imgur.com/jQ72mEA.jpg Cut me some slack on the button functions themselves, I actually don't use a lot of them and want to re-do the layout for a while to get rid of them, but just haven't gotten around to doing it.
      - 10y ago

mikeash 10y ago

I don't see the big deal with looking at it. It's right below the bottom of the monitor.

drivingmenuts 10y ago
The following is opinion only. You lose efficiency when redirecting your vision from the screen to the keyboard. It's the same problem with touchscreens - mouse and keyboard operate on the same plane of motion. By touching the screen, you're breaking that plane. Additionally, you have to use cognitive resources to actually locate the button on the screen, rather than muscle memory, since there is no feedback of any sort from touching the screen. The new Surface from MS actually does it right by re-orienting the work plane from vertical to horizontal, because the types of work you do in each orientation are different.
- mikeash 10y ago
  The keyboard in general, yes. But a strip at the very top of the keyboard, just below the monitor? It's nearly the same as redirecting your vision to the bottom of the screen. It's not the same as looking at the home row to find the H key or whatever.
  - drivingmenuts 10y ago
    Perhaps, but it still requires cognitive resources to locate the area you need to touch. With physical keys, you could rely on muscle memory and touch to delineate the proper key. Now, it's just a smooth strip that you cannot discern one part of from another solely by touch.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      I agree with that. Guiding your fingers by sight rather than by feel is not as good. I don't think it's because you're redirecting your vision, since it's not moving much, but the lack of tactile feedback is still problematic.

joezydeco 10y ago

I see it as a stepping stone to the touch bar becoming the keyboard. You then have a laptop with no moving parts at all (except the lid hinge I guess). Obviously yeah, you want tactile feedback and etc etc etc to make it real (don't know if the Taptic gizmo is the right path), but you're one bit closer to the goal with this.

oolongCat 10y ago
Good god that sounds like a nightmare. Its already a pain to use touch-pads on some laptop models where if you rest your wrist on it it will detect it wrong. And to make matters even worse imagine installing drivers for an os not supported by the manufacturer.
- devrelm 10y ago
  > Its already a pain to use touch-pads on some laptop models where if you rest your wrist on it it will detect it wrong. To switch topics to another new "feature", this was my first thought about the 2x-larger touchpad on the new 15" mbp.
- rietta 10y ago
  That is a nightmare. I already have a hard enough time typing on the MacBook Pro's keyboard. I use an external mechanical most of the time except when I am away from my desk. I just about get all my real work done at my desk though.
- joezydeco 10y ago
  Yeah I'm not saying it's a good thing, but considering how Apple keeps trying to make the keyboard thinner and thinner this seems like the logical conclusion.

landhar 10y ago

Watching the apple event and the various demos of the touch bar reminded me of this onion video from 2009: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA I really needed a macbook upgrade (I've been using the same machine since 2008), but I have a feeling that the touch bar will fail and be removed in the next generation of macbooks. But buying the macbook without the touch bar means settling for lesser specs (and given that I'm thinking about buying a machine that would last me another 8 years it feels like a bad choice).

rietta 10y ago
Buy a Apple Refurbished MacBook Pro from last generation. Get the discount and the warranty that way. And don't worry about it for 4 years.
- landhar 10y ago
  Thanks, this actually sounds like the best compromise.
  - slantyyz 10y ago
    If you don't need retina and you want a 15" screen, I'd hunt down a 2012 15" MBP with a 1680x1050 screen. It's the last generation where you could make upgrades with commodity parts. You can even pull out the optical and stick in a second sata drive (but it will kill your battery). The i7 quad cores on those models still hold their own today.
- iamatworknow 10y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree with this. After a lot of debate and research, I bought the Fall 2013 MBP from Apple refurbished in the middle of 2014. They do an incredible job refurbishing, to the point where there was no way you could tell it was a used device other than it arriving in a nondescript box. Plus, I saved something like $400 off the price of what was still the latest model at the time. In the past two and a half years the only "problem" I've had is that one of the rubber feet came off. It's still got more than enough power for the foreseeable future as well. Definitely recommended.

mstade 10y ago

I don't get this backlash. I'm a developer. I touch type since 20 years back. I haven't used the F-keys in probably just as long. At this point, all I do with those keys is raise/lower the volume/screen brightness. The only key I'll miss is ESC, but I'm sure I'll figure out how to survive.

ProAm 10y ago
As a developer you've never debugged and use the F-keys?
- ch4s3 10y ago
  I've basically never used the F-keys. Are you using them in an IDE?
  - Eridrus 10y ago
    Most (all?) GUI debuggers either in IDEs or browser dev tools use F-keys to step through code.
    - ch4s3 10y ago
      Fair. I'm pretty click oriented in IntelliJ IDEA, and chrome devtools. I guess if I used IntelliJ more, I'd learn the F-key shortcuts, but I have an external keyboard for most typing, so I still wouldn't miss them on the laptop keyboard... and if I did, I'd just map some virtual buttons. Debugging is slow and deliberate for me, I don't need to touch type for that(personally).
- vlozko 10y ago
  Actually, never. Most of my work is in Xcode, though I do some Android Studio, PyCharm, and, if I have to, command-line gdb. As a developer working on a Mac for almost 10 years, I genuinely can't recall the last time I ever used a function key.
- psyc 10y ago
  I do touch type. I do use the F keys with my IDE. I do not touch type the F keys.

talmand 10y ago

My problem with it is that my current work setup involves a keyboard, a mouse, and two monitors that are plugged into the laptop that sits to the side. My laptop monitor is used for company email and messaging. The TouchBar would almost be out of easy reach and would not be useful to me in any way. I would have to wonder how many people are in a similar situation. I guess they could offer an external keyboard with the TouchBar and I could use that.

landhar 10y ago
Yes, how the touch bar will work when the focused application is in full screen in a second monitor is anyone's guess...
- kgwgk 10y ago
  Why would that make any difference?
  - talmand 10y ago
    It wouldn't if you are still using the keyboard on the laptop. Makes me wonder how common it is for someone to use a second monitor off the laptop but still use the laptop's keyboard and trackpad.
    - kgwgk 10y ago
      Maybe I didn't understand his remark. Obviously if you don't use the touchbar it doesn't work. And if you don't use the trackpad it doesn't work, etc.

bluthru 10y ago

Instead of moving a mouse cursor to a toolbar item you can just tap something without repositioning your hand. It's not as fast as someone who has mastered every key combo, but for regular users it should increase productivity.

Raphmedia 10y ago

It's the very same as the contextual ribbon navigation that Microsoft is using but above the keyboard instead of at the top of the screen.

manojlds 10y ago

May be for first few days, but you should get used to the available buttons for apps you use right?