8 ms·

I don't get this... Male engineers have kids and date too. Female employees, engineer or not, get pregnant. "As a female engineer" I would prefer if people -- i

I don't get this... Male engineers have kids and date too. Female employees, engineer or not, get pregnant. "As a female engineer" I would prefer if people -- including fellow women -- stopped treating us like we are some kind of exotic species.

foobarian 10y ago
I don't get it either. I'm a happy Dad engineer but I have no idea what I'm doing and could use this kind of testimonials/advice too!
cbcowans 10y ago
The questions and answers here aren't necessarily specific to women. The idea of the series is just to ask women engineers questions and see what they say.
- mcv 10y ago
  But it seems rather stereotyping to start out with kids and relationships for a series about female engineers. Or do "Ask a male or non-gender specific engineer" series also start with those questions? I mean, they're important questions, but the stereotype seems rather blatant here.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - emelski 10y ago
    This is the fourth post in the series, not the start. Previous posts: http://themacro.com/articles/2016/09/introducing-ask-a-female-engineer/ http://themacro.com/articles/2016/09/introducing-ask-a-femal... http://themacro.com/articles/2016/09/ask-a-female-engineer-2/ http://themacro.com/articles/2016/09/ask-a-female-engineer-2... http://themacro.com/articles/2016/10/ask-a-female-engineer-3/ http://themacro.com/articles/2016/10/ask-a-female-engineer-3...
  - kohanz 10y ago
    > But it seems rather stereotyping to start out with kids and relationships for a series about female engineers Except they didn't "start out" with this post. I believe this is the 4th of the series.
  - sfaf 10y ago
    I think it's hilarious that there are so many comments like this one that make it clear that people are criticizing this article without actually reading it. [As others have pointed out, it's the 4th article in a series so they are not "starting out" with stereotypical questions] Even before I read this, I expected the comment section to be full of comments being like "why can't it be ask an engineer" or "why are they asking questions about kids, men have kids too". I've noticed a pattern where if there's any social issue on hacker news that is politically polarized (i.e. women's issues in tech, BLM, diversity in hiring, etc.) you can expect a a huge wave of comments that criticize the article from authors who don't actually read it. The funny thing is that when you get into social issues that are not that polarizing (i.e. living wages, ethical issues of AI, privacy) the community tends to have a much more intelligent, civil discussion.
    - 20years 10y ago
      I think it's hilarious that you assume we who are criticizing the article haven't fully read it. To be fair - if these questions were asked to a male engineer, I would criticize the article too. The funny thing is that these questions are not asked to male engineers.
      - sfaf 10y ago
        I'm assuming people haven't read it because the comment (and a several others in the thread) starts complaining that the series "starts" by asking stereotypical questions to women. The first line in the article is talking about this is a series and that it's not the first post (it links to the first one). So I'm making this assumption because people are making a claim directly disproved in the first line of the article. I do agree that every question in this article is just as relevant to men.
      - neom 10y ago
        Why?
    - merb 10y ago
      Well the problem of our world is that such article's actually support the gender/race/whatever split. I mean they basically want to solve it, but they create a paradoxon by treating these special. if people would just stop caring about differences we might start to actually have a better world, but I guess we are far far away from it. well I mean when I search people for a job I mostly look at their performance and if they actually can't meet my requirements I need to say no. Well now guess what happens if I have 20 canidates and I now pick the canidate with the highest performance, the chance is pretty high that I also indirectly support the split, it's just because a minority will sometimes stay a minority which doesn't actually happen because you treat them differently, but because they either don't have the chance to get better or because some jobs are just not attractive for them. So the only way to solve the problem is just to stop treating people differently. Discussion is good, but overly discuss it is not, yeah there was a problem in the past, but I think it actually got better, while the last years somehow made it worse by unnecessary discussions or by people who actually seeked attention and actually put even more salt into the wounds. And the internet made it worse since it makes it hard to differentiate between attention seekers and truly suppressed people.
  - solatic 10y ago
    If you want people to improve, you must promote curiosity and indulge their questions. Even when those questions are stupid (in some fashion). Just about the easiest way to shut people up and send them back into their heads, with their patriarchal stereotypes unchallenged, is to tell them that the questions they're asking are wrong. The industry is crawling. We'd like it to be running, but we need to be patient and allow it to walk first. You cannot build mutual understanding without patience.
Consultant32452 10y ago
I'm a male engineer and single father. So I'm responsible for all of the facets of child rearing including but not limited to dealing with a sick kid. All of the talk of making workplaces better for people with families seemed really foreign to me. I would prefer that my company not even be aware of the concept people having children. It's none of their business. Of course it's not practical for companies to have zero awareness, but the less they are involved the better. If I prioritize X over work, then that's an opportunity for someone else to move into that slot and get the promotion. It doesn't matter if X is boogie-boarding, playing video games, or taking care of a child. I support extending maternity/paternity leave for everyone. But if I take 3 months off work every year for 4 years in a row I shouldn't expect to get the same raises and promotions as everyone else. If at N years of tenure I get more vacation days? Time spent on paternity leave shouldn't count towards that. It's the same as if I chose to take 3 months off to section hike the Appalachian Trail.
- stale2002 10y ago
  It is about retention and employee happiness. Lots of people have kids. If a company is receptive of family issues, then those people will be happy and stay at the company. If it is not then they will lose those valuable and expensive to replace employees.
  - knorker 10y ago
    and if you don't compensate your employees for the value they add, then employees with higher value will leave. If you hugely (and it is hugely) subsidise your employees breeding, then you are under-compensating the ones that aren't.
    - balls187 10y ago
      There are very few, if any, non-breeding employees* at my company that out perform me, even with all my family related issues. I don't think there is a strong correlation between the productivity of workers with or without kids. I was a productive employee when I had no spawn. I am still a productive employee now that I have a mini-me. * I can't possibly know that, but I am confident that I am a very productive employee.
urda 10y ago
I really wish HN would go away from this. Either make it "Ask an Engineer" or just drop it all together. These issues impact men as well, and to move on we need to stop treating one sex differently than another.
- mcv 10y ago
  I'm all for more exposure for female engineers. I think more visibility for women will help to make the industry more accessible and more inviting to women. And there are tons of useful questions you could ask, ranging from non-gender specific technical questions to sexism in the workplace. But starting specifically with kids and relationships seems a bit too sticking to the "women are about kids and relationships" stereotype, whereas men should be every bit as much about kids and relationships.
  - ajford 10y ago
    This is actually the fourth article in the series, and the first that really touched on anything that was "women are about kids and relationships" stereotype. The last question in the first article was about sexism in the workplace and how people could improve it.
stale2002 10y ago
As a man I can say that there are lots of problems in my life that women don't deal with, so I can only assume it is the same for women. There are of course shared problems that both men and women face (obviously!) but getting something from a women's perspective is something that people could find useful.
20years 10y ago
Yeah I am another female here who doesn't get it either. I would much rather read "Ask an Engineer" posts that highlight women and men. When they do highlight women, make it about their engineering talents not this stuff. I feel these types of posts actually do a dis-service to female engineers and don't highlight their skills & talents. But what do I know?
cthalupa 10y ago
As someone dating a fellow engineer coworker, I'm definitely curious to see further input on this sort of thing. She's incredibly smart and competent, but has received comments basically accusing her of sleeping with me to get ahead, or that she's only done so well because she's had my help and favor. (I don't have reports or any managerial power, but I am one of the most senior engineers on the team) I've definitely spent a fair amount of time teaching her things, but it's been in no way her taking advantage of me, and I don't use any of my influence to help her more than I would anyone else. She's earned every accolade and piece of praise she's received, and it's heartbreaking to me to see these kinds of comments directed at her. Even without my help, she'd be incredibly successful - she's one of the smartest people I've ever worked with. Due to this sort of thing, we keep the relationship fairly private. Some people know, either because we've shared it with them or because neither of us are particularly great at hiding it, but it means that we have to at least attempt to keep something that brings both of us a lot of happiness a secret. Since we have lots of co-workers on facebook, etc, I even have to be extremely conscious in things like tagging us together in group activities. We have to remember to try and keep at least some distance in work related social gatherings. That stuff is hard on me - as much as I try to imagine how hard that is on her, with everything else she deals with at work, I know it's even harder. I have to quash a desire to be overprotective of her on this sort of thing, and other inappropriate encounters she's had at work, because she's an adult woman who wants to take care of things without me stepping in. I've got to respect that - but I would find it absolutely fantastic to be able to share with her stories of people who have been in similar situations and how they handled it. I know none of that is expressly what was discussed here, but I think it's a problem that affects females in the workplace a hell of a lot more heavily than it does men, and it's certainly not the only thing. Sexism is alive and well, and I don't see how people talking about it does anything but help.
- RestlessMind 10y ago
  That is a very thoughtful comment and by no means I want to accuse you personally of anything. But is there any possibility that you may be biased and see your girlfriend in a more positive light than your coworkers? Given that "objective assessment" of a coworker is hard to define, yet alone hard to enforce, I don't find it very unusual if other colleagues cast aspersions on her motives in such case.

foobarian 10y ago

I don't get it either. I'm a happy Dad engineer but I have no idea what I'm doing and could use this kind of testimonials/advice too!

cbcowans 10y ago

The questions and answers here aren't necessarily specific to women. The idea of the series is just to ask women engineers questions and see what they say.

mcv 10y ago
But it seems rather stereotyping to start out with kids and relationships for a series about female engineers. Or do "Ask a male or non-gender specific engineer" series also start with those questions? I mean, they're important questions, but the stereotype seems rather blatant here.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- emelski 10y ago
  This is the fourth post in the series, not the start. Previous posts: http://themacro.com/articles/2016/09/introducing-ask-a-female-engineer/ http://themacro.com/articles/2016/09/introducing-ask-a-femal... http://themacro.com/articles/2016/09/ask-a-female-engineer-2/ http://themacro.com/articles/2016/09/ask-a-female-engineer-2... http://themacro.com/articles/2016/10/ask-a-female-engineer-3/ http://themacro.com/articles/2016/10/ask-a-female-engineer-3...
- kohanz 10y ago
  > But it seems rather stereotyping to start out with kids and relationships for a series about female engineers Except they didn't "start out" with this post. I believe this is the 4th of the series.
- sfaf 10y ago
  I think it's hilarious that there are so many comments like this one that make it clear that people are criticizing this article without actually reading it. [As others have pointed out, it's the 4th article in a series so they are not "starting out" with stereotypical questions] Even before I read this, I expected the comment section to be full of comments being like "why can't it be ask an engineer" or "why are they asking questions about kids, men have kids too". I've noticed a pattern where if there's any social issue on hacker news that is politically polarized (i.e. women's issues in tech, BLM, diversity in hiring, etc.) you can expect a a huge wave of comments that criticize the article from authors who don't actually read it. The funny thing is that when you get into social issues that are not that polarizing (i.e. living wages, ethical issues of AI, privacy) the community tends to have a much more intelligent, civil discussion.
  - 20years 10y ago
    I think it's hilarious that you assume we who are criticizing the article haven't fully read it. To be fair - if these questions were asked to a male engineer, I would criticize the article too. The funny thing is that these questions are not asked to male engineers.
    - sfaf 10y ago
      I'm assuming people haven't read it because the comment (and a several others in the thread) starts complaining that the series "starts" by asking stereotypical questions to women. The first line in the article is talking about this is a series and that it's not the first post (it links to the first one). So I'm making this assumption because people are making a claim directly disproved in the first line of the article. I do agree that every question in this article is just as relevant to men.
    - neom 10y ago
      Why?
  - merb 10y ago
    Well the problem of our world is that such article's actually support the gender/race/whatever split. I mean they basically want to solve it, but they create a paradoxon by treating these special. if people would just stop caring about differences we might start to actually have a better world, but I guess we are far far away from it. well I mean when I search people for a job I mostly look at their performance and if they actually can't meet my requirements I need to say no. Well now guess what happens if I have 20 canidates and I now pick the canidate with the highest performance, the chance is pretty high that I also indirectly support the split, it's just because a minority will sometimes stay a minority which doesn't actually happen because you treat them differently, but because they either don't have the chance to get better or because some jobs are just not attractive for them. So the only way to solve the problem is just to stop treating people differently. Discussion is good, but overly discuss it is not, yeah there was a problem in the past, but I think it actually got better, while the last years somehow made it worse by unnecessary discussions or by people who actually seeked attention and actually put even more salt into the wounds. And the internet made it worse since it makes it hard to differentiate between attention seekers and truly suppressed people.
- solatic 10y ago
  If you want people to improve, you must promote curiosity and indulge their questions. Even when those questions are stupid (in some fashion). Just about the easiest way to shut people up and send them back into their heads, with their patriarchal stereotypes unchallenged, is to tell them that the questions they're asking are wrong. The industry is crawling. We'd like it to be running, but we need to be patient and allow it to walk first. You cannot build mutual understanding without patience.

Consultant32452 10y ago

I'm a male engineer and single father. So I'm responsible for all of the facets of child rearing including but not limited to dealing with a sick kid. All of the talk of making workplaces better for people with families seemed really foreign to me. I would prefer that my company not even be aware of the concept people having children. It's none of their business. Of course it's not practical for companies to have zero awareness, but the less they are involved the better. If I prioritize X over work, then that's an opportunity for someone else to move into that slot and get the promotion. It doesn't matter if X is boogie-boarding, playing video games, or taking care of a child. I support extending maternity/paternity leave for everyone. But if I take 3 months off work every year for 4 years in a row I shouldn't expect to get the same raises and promotions as everyone else. If at N years of tenure I get more vacation days? Time spent on paternity leave shouldn't count towards that. It's the same as if I chose to take 3 months off to section hike the Appalachian Trail.

stale2002 10y ago
It is about retention and employee happiness. Lots of people have kids. If a company is receptive of family issues, then those people will be happy and stay at the company. If it is not then they will lose those valuable and expensive to replace employees.
- knorker 10y ago
  and if you don't compensate your employees for the value they add, then employees with higher value will leave. If you hugely (and it is hugely) subsidise your employees breeding, then you are under-compensating the ones that aren't.
  - balls187 10y ago
    There are very few, if any, non-breeding employees* at my company that out perform me, even with all my family related issues. I don't think there is a strong correlation between the productivity of workers with or without kids. I was a productive employee when I had no spawn. I am still a productive employee now that I have a mini-me. * I can't possibly know that, but I am confident that I am a very productive employee.

urda 10y ago

I really wish HN would go away from this. Either make it "Ask an Engineer" or just drop it all together. These issues impact men as well, and to move on we need to stop treating one sex differently than another.

mcv 10y ago
I'm all for more exposure for female engineers. I think more visibility for women will help to make the industry more accessible and more inviting to women. And there are tons of useful questions you could ask, ranging from non-gender specific technical questions to sexism in the workplace. But starting specifically with kids and relationships seems a bit too sticking to the "women are about kids and relationships" stereotype, whereas men should be every bit as much about kids and relationships.
- ajford 10y ago
  This is actually the fourth article in the series, and the first that really touched on anything that was "women are about kids and relationships" stereotype. The last question in the first article was about sexism in the workplace and how people could improve it.

stale2002 10y ago

As a man I can say that there are lots of problems in my life that women don't deal with, so I can only assume it is the same for women. There are of course shared problems that both men and women face (obviously!) but getting something from a women's perspective is something that people could find useful.

20years 10y ago

Yeah I am another female here who doesn't get it either. I would much rather read "Ask an Engineer" posts that highlight women and men. When they do highlight women, make it about their engineering talents not this stuff. I feel these types of posts actually do a dis-service to female engineers and don't highlight their skills & talents. But what do I know?

cthalupa 10y ago

As someone dating a fellow engineer coworker, I'm definitely curious to see further input on this sort of thing. She's incredibly smart and competent, but has received comments basically accusing her of sleeping with me to get ahead, or that she's only done so well because she's had my help and favor. (I don't have reports or any managerial power, but I am one of the most senior engineers on the team) I've definitely spent a fair amount of time teaching her things, but it's been in no way her taking advantage of me, and I don't use any of my influence to help her more than I would anyone else. She's earned every accolade and piece of praise she's received, and it's heartbreaking to me to see these kinds of comments directed at her. Even without my help, she'd be incredibly successful - she's one of the smartest people I've ever worked with. Due to this sort of thing, we keep the relationship fairly private. Some people know, either because we've shared it with them or because neither of us are particularly great at hiding it, but it means that we have to at least attempt to keep something that brings both of us a lot of happiness a secret. Since we have lots of co-workers on facebook, etc, I even have to be extremely conscious in things like tagging us together in group activities. We have to remember to try and keep at least some distance in work related social gatherings. That stuff is hard on me - as much as I try to imagine how hard that is on her, with everything else she deals with at work, I know it's even harder. I have to quash a desire to be overprotective of her on this sort of thing, and other inappropriate encounters she's had at work, because she's an adult woman who wants to take care of things without me stepping in. I've got to respect that - but I would find it absolutely fantastic to be able to share with her stories of people who have been in similar situations and how they handled it. I know none of that is expressly what was discussed here, but I think it's a problem that affects females in the workplace a hell of a lot more heavily than it does men, and it's certainly not the only thing. Sexism is alive and well, and I don't see how people talking about it does anything but help.

RestlessMind 10y ago
That is a very thoughtful comment and by no means I want to accuse you personally of anything. But is there any possibility that you may be biased and see your girlfriend in a more positive light than your coworkers? Given that "objective assessment" of a coworker is hard to define, yet alone hard to enforce, I don't find it very unusual if other colleagues cast aspersions on her motives in such case.