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Apple has replaced the MacBook Pro with a faster MacBook Air labeled "Pro". I have no idea how they could think that professionals would use a MacBook Air (no p

by ynniv 10y ago

Apple has replaced the MacBook Pro with a faster MacBook Air labeled "Pro". I have no idea how they could think that professionals would use a MacBook Air (no ports, shallow keyboard, no expansion, no innovative features, marginally lighter). A tiny ribbon display is completely useless to me. They removed the escape key. Twenty years of using Macs and I'm not sure what my next laptop is going to be.

SEK3NLM 10y ago
No escape key? 2007 called and wants its "you can't do serious email on a phone without a phyciscal keyboard" line bad. Seriously. You didn't learn the lesson the iPhone taught the world a decade ago? Also you you obviously don't understand the difference in CPU and GPU capabilities between the Air and the Pro. So you're just ignorant of technology, aren't you?
dasmoth 10y ago
It may not be the ports you want but 4x Thunderbolt/USB-C connectors is not exactly "no ports".
- ynniv 10y ago
  No HDMI. No miniDP. No ethernet. No SDHC reader. No USB port that 100 out of 100 keyboards and mice will plug into. No audio input port. There are no^H^H only useless ports.
  - aianus 10y ago
    > No USB port that 100 out of 100 keyboards and mice will plug into I haven't had a non-bluetooth input device since 2009.
    - untog 10y ago
      We're not all you. I strongly prefer USB devices because I don't have to care about battery charging and pairing. It just works.
      - aianus 10y ago
        Clearly Apple believes there are more people like me (with bluetooth cars, headphones, keyboards, and trackpads) than people like you. Anyways, his "100 out of 100" comment is comically wrong.
        untog 10y ago
        No, Apple believes there are more people willing to convert to being like you, and buy all new devices. Not that there are today. And they're welcome to do so, but they're pushing consumers like me away from their products.
        hota_mazi 10y ago
        They might believe it but their world market share in the personal computer space being around 5% clearly shows they're wrong.
      - paradite 10y ago
        The USB standard has evolved along the way. It is ironic that you "prefer USB" devices but fails to show support for USB-C ports. (Edited to be less personal)
        untog 10y ago
        Oh, come on. I don't "support" anything, being a fanboy of a peripheral plug variant is a life I don't even want to contemplate. I'm very happy to adapt to new things, when they offer a demonstrable benefit to me. What benefit does a USB-C keyboard give me, exactly? I don't need the extra bandwidth to transmit keypresses. Why not include one or two traditional USB3 ports alongside the USB-C ports to ease people over to a new standard?
        anonymfus 10y ago
        >What benefit does a USB-C keyboard give me, exactly? That you can connect it to phones with USB-C without any dongles. Almost all new phones have USB-C. Except one from Apple.
    - jhildings 10y ago
      Might be a OK solution if it was not that OSX continuously losing Bluetooth connection, the mouse paring when switching mouse is buggy or you want to play computer games at all.
    - bdcravens 10y ago
      Many developers use mechanical keyboards - I haven't seen any with Bluetooth (typing this on a Das Keyboard Ultimate)
      - ascagnel_ 10y ago
        They do exist! I occasionally use a Varmilo VB87M that connects via BT and charges an internal battery with micro-USB.
      - nerfhammer 10y ago
        There's no reason for this. The switches in a mechanical kb aren't electrically any different than those in a membrane kb. Not that I'm seriously suggesting it, but it occurs to me that you should be able to make something with an Arduino to make any kb bluetooth.
        majewsky 10y ago
        The point is that they're mechanically different, not electrically.
        nerfhammer 10y ago
        mechanical difference has nothing to do with their wirelessness or lack thereof
      - bergie 10y ago
        I use the Filco Minila Air. Bluetooth keyboard with all the different cherry switches available.
      - skMed 10y ago
        Not a knock here since I know this is not a majority case, but for marginally quick typists, I would say these wireless/bt keyboards are useless. Input lag is dreadful.
        threeseed 10y ago
    - crooked-v 10y ago
      I despise bluetooth keyboards because they always disconnect at the wrong time. Now, I do stick with wireless keyboards in general, but that's because the proprietary Logitech dongle has never failed me in years. If Apple can ever make a Bluetooth keyboard that "just works" in the sort of way they're advertising their upcoming AirPods will, including working properly during the boot menu and every time I restart into Windows, then I might reconsider it.
  - mynameisvlad 10y ago
    What dasmoth is saying is that there are 4 ports, but they may not be the ports you want.
    - masklinn 10y ago
      They're literally all the ports, currently with adapters, eventually likely out of the box (except for ethernet I guess).
      - thesimon 10y ago
        > They're literally all the ports, currently with adapters, If a notebook has got a HDMI port would you say it has a DVI port, because all you need is an adapter? > eventually likely out of the box Nope, only power cable and charger in the box.
        an_account 10y ago
        By "out of the box" I think he meant periferals with USB-C cables, no adapter required.
  - f_allwein 10y ago
    it does have an HDMI port, and a SDXC slot.
    - bdcravens 10y ago
      Not anymore. 4 TB3 ports + headphone. (but you can plug adapters into any of the TB3's)
      - grub5000 10y ago
        The Air-equivalent only has 2 TB3 ports
      - f_allwein 10y ago
        oh, indeed - mixed it up. :-|
  - stemuk 10y ago
    As far as I got it there is one audiojack on the right, or am I mistaken?
    - KingMob 10y ago
      Yes. At least Apple didn't "obsolete" my $300 headphones, or I would definitely be getting a Linux/Windows box for my next laptop.
      - mark-r 10y ago
        If you have $300 headphones you should probably look into an outboard D/A converter anyway.
    - UVB-76 10y ago
      Any word yet on whether it still has Mini Toslink support?
  - bdcravens 10y ago
    Apple's answer is adapters, ala headphone jack on iPhone 7. Probably not a good answer, but that's the party line it seems.
    - maxxxxx 10y ago
      Now that's super "elegant". You have a very clean device and a big bag with adapters.
      - eropple 10y ago
        I don't think this is going to really be a thing, aside from fairly specialized use cases. Some devices with integrated cables are going to require adapters (and, fortunately, an A->C adapter is tiny, or carry one of those Anker 4-port USB hubs that's the size of a pack of gum), but I'll just buy new five-dollar cables for my type-B devices and not really care too much about it. Having to re-buy all of them is a drag, I am totally not saying that doesn't suck, but I'm not worried about having a bag full of them.
      - imtringued 10y ago
        At some point we have to agree on a standard railway gauge. The transitioning phase will be painful but the advantages are worth the switch.
  - robotresearcher 10y ago
    Thunderbolt is a multiplexed port. Typically, you plug it into your big screen. The external keyboard, mouse and speakers are attached to the big screen. Now your MBP charges from that cable too. No need to tell me that your use case is slightly different. You can't please everybody. Edit: I just discovered that the LG screen Apple is selling as a proposed match for their new laptops does NOT have legacy ports on the back, but just more USB-C ports. This seems very dumb. I don't want three $39 dongles on the back of my screen.
    - GVIrish 10y ago
      Yeah so now you have to carry some sort of multi-adapter in addition to your ultra clean laptop. > It also doesn't have a floppy drive or an IBM serial port. So how long do you think until cameras stop requiring a SD card? How long until most peripherals go to USB-C? Any way you slice it, for the next 3-5 years people are going to need to carry around a dongle (or dongles) with their Macbook. Not the worst thing in the world, but certainly doesn't make the user's life appreciably better.
      - robotresearcher 10y ago
        Edit: removed sarcastic response to a comment about a different use-case. Too late to delete.
        GVIrish 10y ago
        Sure you can't please everybody. But you can certainly displease most of the people who buy your products. Not saying the ports is a dealbreaker, just that it makes things more inconvenient for probably the majority of users, with little offsetting benefit.
      - jsz0 10y ago
        Adapters and dongles are pretty much unavoidable these days. There are simply too many semi-modern ports still in use for each type to be included on a laptop to cover everyone's needs. It makes sense to move towards modern ports that provide more functionality and better backwards compatibility via adapters. In that sense I'd argue they do make people's lives better because it's a solution to almost every potential problem. Back in the USB2 era it was simply impossible to connect many devices to a laptop. Now we have multi-function ports that can accommodate multiple external PCI-E enclosures.
  - Bud 10y ago
    Wrong all around. Thunderbolt is a superset of HDMI. Thunderbolt is ALSO a superset of miniDP. Mac laptops haven't had Ethernet for many, many years, except via the Thunderbolt or USB adapters, both of which will still be possible on this machine, too. Yes, the SD card reader was left out. Wrong on USB ports; it's absurd to suggest that "100 out of 100" keyboards and mice plug into USB-A. Most such products these days are, in fact, wireless, and those which aren't can simply use a very very cheap USB-A to USB-C adapter.
    - EugeneOZ 10y ago
      and lack of ethernet port was never an "awesome feature", but reason for jokes about adapters for "just $99".
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - PhantomGremlin 10y ago
      Mac laptops haven't had Ethernet for many, many years That's true, but only if by "many years" you really meant "yesterday". The following laptop was still available for order from Apple's website until yesterday's announcements: http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook_pro/specs/macbook-pro-core-i5-2.5-13-mid-2012-unibody-usb3-specs.html http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook_pro/specs/macb... Connectivity includes AirPort Extreme (802.11a/b/g/n), Bluetooth 4.0, Gigabit Ethernet, a Firewire "800" port, two USB 3.0 ports, a "Thunderbolt" port, audio in/out, and an SDXC card slot.
    - jeeva 10y ago
      Just to point out that assuming "most wireless HID devices are Bluetooth" is likely incorrect - a huge amount of the devices I see come with a dongle of some kind, that plugs into... (you guessed it) USB A sockets.
      - Bud 10y ago
        You are mis-quoting me. I didn't say Bluetooth. I said wireless. That includes the stupid dongle-antennas.
  - pkulak 10y ago
    HDMI, miniDP and SD ports should never be present on a "pro" machine of any kind. "Pro" doesn't mean "more". Sometimes it means less. Like fleet cars that don't have cruise control. You don't need cruise when your job is driving around the city and you shouldn't need a SD card slot for any job that's not photography.
    - cptskippy 10y ago
      3D Printers typically have SD or MicroSD slots for uploading STLs for unattended printing. Most electronic music equipment like keyboards, synths or sampler pads have SD/MicroSD as well. Hell a lot of shop tools like CNC mills and welders have SD Card slots. Don't most Action Cameras use SD or MicroSD? Most professional grade video cameras will record simultaneously to multiple media formats and one of those is always an SD Card. Anyone tinkering with a Raspberry Pi is going to need an SD reader too. If you're doing any data logging with embedded micro controllers then you're probably using SD or MicroSD as well.
    - heartbreak 10y ago
      And if your job is photography, you're not using SD.
      - robhu 10y ago
        What do you mean? A lot of cameras today use SD cards, e.g. Nikon D810 / D500.
        rbritton 10y ago
        Probably CF cards. Most pro-level cameras have that as the primary card slot with some also offering a secondary card slot that is SD. Our cameras all do. The standard slot on regular cameras tends to be SD, though.
    - toyg 10y ago
      My professional photographer friend will be mightily pissed off by the loss of SD slots. Every dongle is a bit more gear he has to drag around the city while shooting. My professional radio guy will be mightily pissed off at losing HDMI. Or rather would be, if he were still bound to the Apple ecosystem - he left it several years ago, never to return, because the price/performance ratio on their desktops went down the toilet when they stopped making user-upgradeable "cheesegraters". Apple has gradually abandoned the Pro market. I thought they were simply trying to move everyone to laptops, but now I can see that they really have no use for non-iDevices.
  - oatmealsnap 10y ago
    Wouldn't you want to rely on an professional external DAC and transfer the audio to your computer digitally instead of having an audio-in port?
    - ynniv 10y ago
      I didn't want to call it a mic port for just that reason: it also accepted lossless digital audio.
- FireBeyond 10y ago
  And only $39 a pop for USB-C Lightning cables. That's some balls, Apple.
  - Casseres 10y ago
    >And only $39 a pop for USB-C Lightning cables. >That's some balls, Apple. No, that's courage. /s Although I'm surprised they left the headphone jack if removing it is supposed to be "the future". There seems to be some discontinuity between the Macbook and iPhone lines.
    - organsnyder 10y ago
      > There seems to be some discontinuity between the Macbook and iPhone lines. I'm amused that I'll be able to charge my Nexus 6P with my Macbook Pro charger (unless Apple really screws something up), but my colleague won't be able to charge his iPhone.
      - Casseres 10y ago
        Real courage would be to admit that USB-C is better than Lightening, and to switch their new iPhones to USB-C.
        AtheistOfFail 10y ago
        But you can't charge licensing fees on that. The issue is that Apple is making you a third party customer while they rake in cash from selling a non-standard connector. Reminds me of Firewire, it should die quickly.
        clintonb 10y ago
        FireWire had higher bandwidth than USB 1.0/1.1. USB 2.0 had higher bandwidth (480 Mbps) in bursts. FireWire (due to the dedicated hardware) could sustain 400 Mbps transfers. The use of FireWire on the first iPods and DV cameras was a good choice.
- goerz 10y ago
  I find the lack of at least one legacy USB port extremely worrying. Will the following work with a USB to Firewire/USB-C dongle? * boot from USB (bootable CarbonCopyCloner backup) * Yubikey (government issued, so I can't easily get an updated key) * Kensington R800 presenter (supposedly, it's "just a USB keyboard", but I've had it not work via Bluetooth dongle or with the USB to Lightning dongle for the iPad, even though regular USB keyboards work)
  - imtringued 10y ago
    USB C is just the form factor. USB 3.1 Gen 2 is commonly supported by USB C ports. USB 3.1 Gen 2 is backwards compatible with USB 3.0/3.1 and 2.0 but not USB 1.0/1.1. You may need an active adapter or hub from 2.0 to 1.1 instead of just a passive cable.
computmaxer 10y ago
Four standard (non-proprietary) multi-use ports is a complaint? No innovative features? What do you call a ribbon display that no one has ever done before? No expansion - nothing new to the MBP line.
- twic 10y ago
  > No innovative features? What do you call a ribbon display that no one has ever done before? A gimmick.
  - bluthru 10y ago
    Your hands don't have to move around as much to select a toolbar item and you don't have to move your hands up to the screen like a surface. I think the touch bar will be great for productivity.
  - jwalton 10y ago
    A $600 USD gimmick, it seems.
    - igravious 10y ago
      Seems the price differential between the 2 port TB-3 13" and the 4 port TB-3 13" w\ Touch Bar & Touch ID is $300 USD. If I'm not mistaken. I went o_O … Seems steep. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
      - vilhelm_s 10y ago
        The model with the touchbar also has a faster CPU, I guess some of the price difference is due to that.
  - elif 10y ago
    I call it a battery discharger.
  - lostgame 10y ago
    > No innovative features? What do you call a ribbon display that no one has ever done before? >A gimmick. pwn'd so true.
dougbarrett 10y ago
The Macbook Pro they're boasting as a possible replacement for the Air has the new key tech which they mentioned in the keynote as having more travel distance, it keeps the old FN keys, and it has two thunderbolt ports. So yes, changing the ports isn't ideal and only having one to use to plug in peripherals which will most likely mean a hub is required is a bit of a pain, but the low end doesn't even include the touch bar so I'm not sure what you're getting upset about? Plus, the current generation of Macbook Pros weren't expandible as far as I'm aware? I've got the 15" rMBP and I can't upgrade anything within it, so I doubt Apple is too concerned anymore about allowing expansion in their laptops and I could see that trend spreading across the rest of the industry as well.
- Avenger42 10y ago
  The new keyboard has less key travel, not more. From the Macbook page: > So we designed a unique butterfly mechanism, which is wider than the scissor mechanism and has a single assembly made from a stiffer material — allowing for a more stable, responsive key that takes up less vertical space.
  - dougbarrett 10y ago
    that's interesting, I could have sworn I heard them say it had more travel distance, or maybe it was the impression of more travel.
    - ant6n 10y ago
      I thought they said it had more travel than the butterfly keyboard that's used in the macbook without name. I mean the super thin 12" one they came up with last year.
  - cschmidt 10y ago
    They are a v2 of the MacBook keyboards, and I believe they said that the v2 has more travel compared to the v1. That's what the OP is saying. Not sure how that v2 would compare to the current MacBook Pro keyboards.
ddorian43 10y ago
Sorry buddy but it will be a Mac again. It's ok, you'll find some good reasons.
robterrell 10y ago
To me, the signature feature of the MacBook Air is the low-wattage CPU. And maybe the non-retina display. This new MacBook Pro is a Skylake i7. Not at all in the same ballpark.
- wlesieutre 10y ago
  The 15" is quad core i7, the 13" is dual core i5.
  - xufi 10y ago
    and the 15'' is $2299 rip my wallet if I choose to get one and still on 16gb ram
rymate1234 10y ago
I dunno, the base model has two Thunderbolt 3 / USB type C ports, and the model with the touch bar has 4 of these ports. All models appear to have the headphone jack. It might only be two ports on the base model, but it's ports that are significantly more versatile than standard USB.
- raesene6 10y ago
  ironically of course if you've got a new iPhone, you'll need an adapter to use the headset on the Macbook pro. The problem, to me, of the port selection is that it means pretty much every user is going to have to carry a selection of adapters for years to come given the installed base of USB peripherals + things like projectors that do not have a USB-C port. Other laptops seem to do a better job of phasing things in gradually introducing USB-C ports whilst not immediately dropping the older ones to give people time to adapt.
  - gnicholas 10y ago
    Precisely. When will Apple start shipping iOS devices with USB C chargers? When will the desktops move over to this "better" standard? If the main impetus is thinness (which isn't important for desktops), then will we have years of transition, where peripherals come with cables that may or may not work, depending on computer type?
    - imtringued 10y ago
      >When will the desktops move over to this "better" standard? A lot of desktop mainboards already have one USB C port. http://www.gigabyte.com/fileupload/product/2/5521/20150826155400_big.png http://www.gigabyte.com/fileupload/product/2/5521/2015082615...
kylec 10y ago
You must have missed the fact that you can type emojis on the touch bar
- ynniv 10y ago
  This is the proper response.
- dr1337 10y ago
  Gotta use more emojis in my Swift code now.
  - xHopen 10y ago
    With a "\u{24}" up
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- jakebasile 10y ago
  Maybe I can remap some emoji to Vim functions.
  - stephenr 10y ago
    The whole point is that you could have contextual 'buttons' that are appropriate for what you're doing in <App> But that sounds too much like an easy solution for Vim users, and what would they have to piss and moan about then?
    - jakebasile 10y ago
      I already have contextual buttons. I remap keys to what I want, that's one of the main benefits of Vim's multi modal system. I don't need an expensive gimmick to do so.
      - stephenr 10y ago
MollyR 10y ago
I'm not sure what laptop to get next either. This "pro" version and the ribbon are not a good fit for me. I'm really looking closely at the new MS surface books.
- rhexs 10y ago
  I've owned every version of the Surface Pro and used the Surface Book for around two weeks before returning it. I finally gave up on the Surface Pro 4 and switched to a 2009 Core 2 Duo Macbook Pro I picked up on eBay. Surface Pros: Beautiful hardware, touchscreen works decently, Windows 10 is generally a decent operating system. Keyboard is pretty neat. Cons: Tremendously buggy software and hardware integration. The Surface Pro 4/Book dock was effectively useless until several firmware updates. Tons and tons of issues -- I had to warranty repair the Surface Pro 4 three times before giving up and selling it. Still plenty of hardware bugs. Scaling on Windows 10 isn't very good outside of most MS developed apps. Battery life is pretty terrible for what it should be. (Do not get an i7 version -- sucks down battery. i5 is better) Hard to do productivity work on the Pro 4 as I really prefer a standard 13 inch notebook minimum. The Book does solve this issue, but I never felt the need to pay the huge price premium for tablet mode. Video drivers for the Pro 4/Book were crashing when browsing for several months after launch. At the end of the day, taking notes in a notebook isn't quite as convenient but just works better than using the pen. I love the potential the Surface line has, but that's just it, potential. Microsoft needs to focus 10x more on QA. If they control the hardware and software, the result needs to be as seamless as it usually is (or was) on Apple devices. I'd love to see a lower priced Surface Laptop without the screen gimmick for professionals.
  - MollyR 10y ago
    Wow thanks for the review! Did you ever try installing linux on it ?
    - eightysixfour 10y ago
      Just a note from another user - I bought a book when they first came out and was disappointed in the poor battery management and some serious driver issues. I returned it. Recently I had a chance to use one for a week and ended up buying it. My big issues were all fixed and it has been a great daily driver for the last month or so. The linux susbsystem has been very useful if you play within it s boundaries and I'm happy with it as a development machine.
dandandans 10y ago
I think you are confusing MacBook Air with MacBook. The Air has the pre-shallow keyboard, and standard port array (USB 3 x2, SD, MagSafe, and TB). Minus the non-retina screen, the 13" Air is a very capable dev machine with great battery life in a light and compact form factor.
edoloughlin 10y ago
So the new Macbook is a scaled up phone and the new Macbook Pro is a scaled up Air.
AndrewKemendo 10y ago
Twenty years of using Macs and I'm not sure what my next laptop is going to be. I gotta say the Surface Book has been really great. Especially as it supports the new MSVR and Hololens out of the box for the DGPU version.
- ynniv 10y ago
  How's the keyboard?
  - AndrewKemendo 10y ago
    Good balance between quiet and haptic. Not quite mechanical click quality but more satisfying than other super soft touch ones.
- masklinn 10y ago
  My beefs are the low-voltage CPUs and that it's even more expensive than the MBP if you want 16GB RAM ($2700, though you do get 512GB SSD for that which brings the MBP to $2600), let alone 1TB SSD (that's $3300 versus $3000 on the MBP). And that's comparing to the 15" rMBP, the 13" is $2200 (16/512) / $2600 (16/1TB), though in that case the SB adds a dGPU. And battery life in both cases of course. And the SB doesn't have a single type-C port let alone TB3.
rayiner 10y ago
What do you mean "no ports?" Four USB-C thunderbolt ports--how much more ports do you need? They keyboard is also a huge draw for me--I love the MB's keyboard. It's very precise. I'm a light typer so I don't care about key travel. My big concern is how much they had to shrink the battery to shave off the half-pound.
lukeasrodgers 10y ago
I think initially "pro" actually meant "for professional users," but it's clearly now just a marketing term. As a professional user, I want at least a mixture of port options (hdmi, usb) and a keyboard that supports touch-typing, not some gimmicky band I'm going to have to look at to see what it's showing. I've been using macs for ~20 years but my next laptop will not be from Apple.
- frou_dh 10y ago
  If we get serious, then it could be said that it's negligent for PCs claiming to be for Pro use not to use ECC memory. ECC and Xeons aren't fringe exotic technology. Intel obviously has some kind of hang-up with their market segmentation though.
  - chrisper 10y ago
    The Thinkpads, which are pro, do support ECC and Xeons. Pretty sure, Dell has laptops like that, too.
    - strictnein 10y ago
      HP does as well with their ZBook line.
  - xorblurb 10y ago
    The whole story about ECC ram in the computer industry is completely insane. RAM is basically the only place in most PC not protected by a form of ECC, except on expensive (or at least less produced) Xeon (or maybe some AMD, I don't know which ones). I don't know if caches on most ARM processors have ECC, but the situation might very well be the same on smartphone. Sad...
    - secabeen 10y ago
      Strangely, there are a bunch of low-end pentiums that support ECC.
mi100hael 10y ago
I was in the same boat about six months ago when I was fed up with instability in OS X. Time Machine backups getting corrupted, not waking from sleep, etc. I switched to a Dell M5510 running Linux and haven't looked back. Battery life isn't as good, but otherwise it's been great. Touch screen works fine, trackpad clicks a little heavy but works fine, all the standard ports and an included network dongle, Libre Office gets the job done, Netflix still works on Chrome, no random crashes or freezes, and no proprietary lock-in, privacy concerns, or cloud nonsense. Best of all it's basically the same size & weight as a MBP, not your average clunky PC monstrosity.
- mixedCase 10y ago
  >trackpad clicks a little heavy Don't like tap to click? Libinput supports it, I thought it was the default on all distros even.
  - rhodysurf 10y ago
    Its not enabled by default in gnome
- thijsvandien 10y ago
  The most ridiculous thing about this laptop is that it comes with a Xeon CPU, yet no option for ECC RAM.
- lsadam0 10y ago
  I'm curious what sort of work you were doing in OS X?
rwhitman 10y ago
I get the sense that there is a movement inside Apple right now to abandon the professional market. Everything they've released lately for pros has been half-hearted at best. I'm getting increasingly concerned that one day soon they will drop Mac OS products altogether and just leave us to the wolves
- jjawssd 10y ago
  The writing is on the walls
- tedmiston 10y ago
  I hope not. I know more professional developers in startups using Apple laptops over anything else on the market. They have to recognize the size of that market. Edit: Added "in startups"
  - rwhitman 10y ago
    Geographically once you get outside of major tech hubs, the Mac's market share as a developer workstation is quite tiny. I remember one time I was sent out on site to a big corp in an office park in New Jersey and everyone in the cubicles around me came up and cracked jokes about my MacBook, tried to challenge me because I wasn't a "real developer" since I used a Mac etc. Honestly I'd guess the main people keeping the Mac line afloat at Apple are probably their own engineering staff. Imagine having to develop Apple products on another OS, how frustrating that would be
    - gm-conspiracy 10y ago
      Imagine having to develop Apple products on another OS, how frustrating that would be That future seems to almost be here. Or the ecosystem will be abandoned.
- hellofunk 10y ago
  But then they would have nothing to write iOS apps, so I don't think that will happen.
jaxn 10y ago
I am feeling the same way, except that I know what my next laptop will be. I am ordering a Surface Book. The weird screen thing looks terrible on this MBP. It will require me to look at my keyboard, not my screen. Meanwhile, the Surface Book gives me a touch screen (which is important to me because I create web software that is used on touch screens), the pen is great, the dial looks interesting, so I will probably buy that too. The Surface Book should work great on my desk with an additional monitor and keyboard / mouse / dial. Whereas the MBP completely loses the utility of that weird touch bar thing in that same setup. Also, I use virtualization on my Mac to develop a .NET app. So, now I don't have function keys for the guest OS? It was developers who led the way to Apple's dominance in the notebook space, and I suspect it will be developers who lead the migration in the opposite way. The question for me is, will I end up ditching the iPhone too?
- asenna 10y ago
  > The question for me is, will I end up ditching the iPhone too? You must've read the discussions earlier but I really think it's worth giving the Google Pixels a shot.
- gm-conspiracy 10y ago
  So, you bring up a really good point: Whereas the MBP completely loses the utility of that weird touch bar thing in that same setup. The majority of professionals seem to use the MPB with an external display and keyboard, so the new MBP keyboard will not be touched at all. Maybe they will update the bluetooth keyboard with a display?
- usaphp 10y ago
  > "Meanwhile, the Surface Book gives me a touch screen (which is important to me because I create web software that is used on touch screens)," Have you ever tried using touch screen on windows as a developer? I just don't understand how people can list it as a benefit, windows interface especially in any apps for developers is horrible for touch use, and don't forget that in order for you to touch the screen you have to raise your hand , how many times a day can you do that without your shoulders being sore? The thing I applaud Apple for is standing (at least here) the ground and not going with a touch screen for laptops, I think having a touchscreen in a laptop is a horrendous and useless idea, touch screens should only be on the object where you already lay your arms on, like keyboard in this case with Apple, having a touch screen 5 feet away from your hands will make you not want to use it, and that's not even considering OS your which is not meant for that
jjawssd 10y ago
I'm looking at Dell Precision 7510 series for my next update away from Macbook Pro 15 (2015)
- blockoperation 10y ago
  I love my 7510 and I'd definitely recommend it, but the keyboards are a bit of a lottery (this probably applies to all current Latitudes and Precisions, as they all look to use the same boards). There are two different designs that I've encountered, with one of them being massively inferior (noticeably mushier feel, and a weak point on the arrow key clips that gets worse over time, until the clip starts 'expanding' under pressure, causing it to get stuck or pop off of the board).
  - rayiner 10y ago
    Coil whine? EDIT: Jesus, it's a full 1/3 heavier than the 2015 rMBP, with a smaller battery.
    - blockoperation 10y ago
      No coil whine on my one at least, but maybe I'm just lucky. I doubt weight is much of a factor for most people considering one of these things, but yeah they are a bit heavy (they can take a lot of abuse, though).
ryanSrich 10y ago
Apple's got me locked in until their OS runs on something else.
- artursapek 10y ago
  So for eternity?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
pkulak 10y ago
What's the best laptop for Linux these days? It's been over a decade for me since I touched one. Will I still need to mess with xorg.conf every second week?
- angryasian 10y ago
  no if you go with the laptop most are already configured for you and nvidia and ati support is much improved. You can do everything with the gui.
  - lucb1e 10y ago
    > you can do everything via the gui Or not. I didn't change my default settings and I'm not running Linux Mint or Ubuntu or some other newbie friendly distro. It's just all taken care of. At least games run fine, though it must be said that the games I play are either from '99 or not graphics-heavy. Factorio is the heaviest one.
    - pkulak 10y ago
      What laptop are you using, if you don't mind my asking? Is there somewhere where someone has explicitly listed out the laptops that are most compatible with most Linux distros?
      - lucb1e 10y ago
        I don't know about a list of models but most laptops work quite fine for me. Usually I prefer Intel and nVidia so that might or might not have something to do with it. I've got an Asus N56VB S4054H myself and replaced the HDD with a Plextor 256GB SSD.
super_mario 10y ago
Indeed. Didn't we try UIs that change on the user dynamically and concluded they absolutely suck (remember the Windows 98 start menu re-ordering menu item position based on frequency of use?). They go against muscle memory training, and decades (centuries?) of convention. For someone who spends the day in Terminal (bash with readline in Vim editing mode) and Vim, missing physical ESC key is going to be a huge pain in the ass. So, after a decade of Apple hardware I am yet again on the cross roads looking for decent hardware and OS to go with it. As it stands now, Linux with PC hardware is going to be the only real option. At least there are good mechanical keyboard for PCs.
- ant6n 10y ago
  They still have the kid's version that has an escape key.
  - super_mario 10y ago
    You got that all wrong. The least powerful machine is for grownups. The more powerful ones are for kids who like colorful glowing bar that flashes from time to time to provide entertainment and distract them from facebook and twitter posting.
gniv 10y ago
I don't think they cater to those types of professionals. The demand from corporations is probably so high that that's who they need to keep happy.
e40 10y ago
They removed the escape key. Wait, what? Holy crap, that's amazingly stupid.
dclowd9901 10y ago
Brilliant time for someone to make a move in the Linux space. I do not want a Windows box, but would love something as refined as a Mac running a slick GUI on top of Linux.
emanuelev 10y ago
Precisely how I feel. Also, what's the deal with the ports? At the moment it seems that you have to carry a dongle/adapter for every single Apple device, that's crazy. After eight years with my macbook it's time to give linux a real shot on my next laptop.

by ynniv 10y ago

SEK3NLM 10y ago

No escape key? 2007 called and wants its "you can't do serious email on a phone without a phyciscal keyboard" line bad. Seriously. You didn't learn the lesson the iPhone taught the world a decade ago? Also you you obviously don't understand the difference in CPU and GPU capabilities between the Air and the Pro. So you're just ignorant of technology, aren't you?

dasmoth 10y ago

It may not be the ports you want but 4x Thunderbolt/USB-C connectors is not exactly "no ports".

ynniv 10y ago
No HDMI. No miniDP. No ethernet. No SDHC reader. No USB port that 100 out of 100 keyboards and mice will plug into. No audio input port. There are no^H^H only useless ports.
- aianus 10y ago
  > No USB port that 100 out of 100 keyboards and mice will plug into I haven't had a non-bluetooth input device since 2009.
  - untog 10y ago
    We're not all you. I strongly prefer USB devices because I don't have to care about battery charging and pairing. It just works.
    - aianus 10y ago
      Clearly Apple believes there are more people like me (with bluetooth cars, headphones, keyboards, and trackpads) than people like you. Anyways, his "100 out of 100" comment is comically wrong.
      - untog 10y ago
        No, Apple believes there are more people willing to convert to being like you, and buy all new devices. Not that there are today. And they're welcome to do so, but they're pushing consumers like me away from their products.
      - hota_mazi 10y ago
        They might believe it but their world market share in the personal computer space being around 5% clearly shows they're wrong.
    - paradite 10y ago
      The USB standard has evolved along the way. It is ironic that you "prefer USB" devices but fails to show support for USB-C ports. (Edited to be less personal)
      - untog 10y ago
        Oh, come on. I don't "support" anything, being a fanboy of a peripheral plug variant is a life I don't even want to contemplate. I'm very happy to adapt to new things, when they offer a demonstrable benefit to me. What benefit does a USB-C keyboard give me, exactly? I don't need the extra bandwidth to transmit keypresses. Why not include one or two traditional USB3 ports alongside the USB-C ports to ease people over to a new standard?
        anonymfus 10y ago
        >What benefit does a USB-C keyboard give me, exactly? That you can connect it to phones with USB-C without any dongles. Almost all new phones have USB-C. Except one from Apple.
  - jhildings 10y ago
    Might be a OK solution if it was not that OSX continuously losing Bluetooth connection, the mouse paring when switching mouse is buggy or you want to play computer games at all.
  - bdcravens 10y ago
    Many developers use mechanical keyboards - I haven't seen any with Bluetooth (typing this on a Das Keyboard Ultimate)
    - ascagnel_ 10y ago
      They do exist! I occasionally use a Varmilo VB87M that connects via BT and charges an internal battery with micro-USB.
    - nerfhammer 10y ago
      There's no reason for this. The switches in a mechanical kb aren't electrically any different than those in a membrane kb. Not that I'm seriously suggesting it, but it occurs to me that you should be able to make something with an Arduino to make any kb bluetooth.
      - majewsky 10y ago
        The point is that they're mechanically different, not electrically.
        nerfhammer 10y ago
        mechanical difference has nothing to do with their wirelessness or lack thereof
    - bergie 10y ago
      I use the Filco Minila Air. Bluetooth keyboard with all the different cherry switches available.
    - skMed 10y ago
      Not a knock here since I know this is not a majority case, but for marginally quick typists, I would say these wireless/bt keyboards are useless. Input lag is dreadful.
      - threeseed 10y ago
  - crooked-v 10y ago
    I despise bluetooth keyboards because they always disconnect at the wrong time. Now, I do stick with wireless keyboards in general, but that's because the proprietary Logitech dongle has never failed me in years. If Apple can ever make a Bluetooth keyboard that "just works" in the sort of way they're advertising their upcoming AirPods will, including working properly during the boot menu and every time I restart into Windows, then I might reconsider it.
- mynameisvlad 10y ago
  What dasmoth is saying is that there are 4 ports, but they may not be the ports you want.
  - masklinn 10y ago
    They're literally all the ports, currently with adapters, eventually likely out of the box (except for ethernet I guess).
    - thesimon 10y ago
      > They're literally all the ports, currently with adapters, If a notebook has got a HDMI port would you say it has a DVI port, because all you need is an adapter? > eventually likely out of the box Nope, only power cable and charger in the box.
      - an_account 10y ago
        By "out of the box" I think he meant periferals with USB-C cables, no adapter required.
- f_allwein 10y ago
  it does have an HDMI port, and a SDXC slot.
  - bdcravens 10y ago
    Not anymore. 4 TB3 ports + headphone. (but you can plug adapters into any of the TB3's)
    - grub5000 10y ago
      The Air-equivalent only has 2 TB3 ports
    - f_allwein 10y ago
      oh, indeed - mixed it up. :-|
- stemuk 10y ago
  As far as I got it there is one audiojack on the right, or am I mistaken?
  - KingMob 10y ago
    Yes. At least Apple didn't "obsolete" my $300 headphones, or I would definitely be getting a Linux/Windows box for my next laptop.
    - mark-r 10y ago
      If you have $300 headphones you should probably look into an outboard D/A converter anyway.
  - UVB-76 10y ago
    Any word yet on whether it still has Mini Toslink support?
- bdcravens 10y ago
  Apple's answer is adapters, ala headphone jack on iPhone 7. Probably not a good answer, but that's the party line it seems.
  - maxxxxx 10y ago
    Now that's super "elegant". You have a very clean device and a big bag with adapters.
    - eropple 10y ago
      I don't think this is going to really be a thing, aside from fairly specialized use cases. Some devices with integrated cables are going to require adapters (and, fortunately, an A->C adapter is tiny, or carry one of those Anker 4-port USB hubs that's the size of a pack of gum), but I'll just buy new five-dollar cables for my type-B devices and not really care too much about it. Having to re-buy all of them is a drag, I am totally not saying that doesn't suck, but I'm not worried about having a bag full of them.
    - imtringued 10y ago
      At some point we have to agree on a standard railway gauge. The transitioning phase will be painful but the advantages are worth the switch.
- robotresearcher 10y ago
  Thunderbolt is a multiplexed port. Typically, you plug it into your big screen. The external keyboard, mouse and speakers are attached to the big screen. Now your MBP charges from that cable too. No need to tell me that your use case is slightly different. You can't please everybody. Edit: I just discovered that the LG screen Apple is selling as a proposed match for their new laptops does NOT have legacy ports on the back, but just more USB-C ports. This seems very dumb. I don't want three $39 dongles on the back of my screen.
  - GVIrish 10y ago
    Yeah so now you have to carry some sort of multi-adapter in addition to your ultra clean laptop. > It also doesn't have a floppy drive or an IBM serial port. So how long do you think until cameras stop requiring a SD card? How long until most peripherals go to USB-C? Any way you slice it, for the next 3-5 years people are going to need to carry around a dongle (or dongles) with their Macbook. Not the worst thing in the world, but certainly doesn't make the user's life appreciably better.
    - robotresearcher 10y ago
      Edit: removed sarcastic response to a comment about a different use-case. Too late to delete.
      - GVIrish 10y ago
        Sure you can't please everybody. But you can certainly displease most of the people who buy your products. Not saying the ports is a dealbreaker, just that it makes things more inconvenient for probably the majority of users, with little offsetting benefit.
    - jsz0 10y ago
      Adapters and dongles are pretty much unavoidable these days. There are simply too many semi-modern ports still in use for each type to be included on a laptop to cover everyone's needs. It makes sense to move towards modern ports that provide more functionality and better backwards compatibility via adapters. In that sense I'd argue they do make people's lives better because it's a solution to almost every potential problem. Back in the USB2 era it was simply impossible to connect many devices to a laptop. Now we have multi-function ports that can accommodate multiple external PCI-E enclosures.
- Bud 10y ago
  Wrong all around. Thunderbolt is a superset of HDMI. Thunderbolt is ALSO a superset of miniDP. Mac laptops haven't had Ethernet for many, many years, except via the Thunderbolt or USB adapters, both of which will still be possible on this machine, too. Yes, the SD card reader was left out. Wrong on USB ports; it's absurd to suggest that "100 out of 100" keyboards and mice plug into USB-A. Most such products these days are, in fact, wireless, and those which aren't can simply use a very very cheap USB-A to USB-C adapter.
  - EugeneOZ 10y ago
    and lack of ethernet port was never an "awesome feature", but reason for jokes about adapters for "just $99".
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - PhantomGremlin 10y ago
    Mac laptops haven't had Ethernet for many, many years That's true, but only if by "many years" you really meant "yesterday". The following laptop was still available for order from Apple's website until yesterday's announcements: http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook_pro/specs/macbook-pro-core-i5-2.5-13-mid-2012-unibody-usb3-specs.html http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook_pro/specs/macb... Connectivity includes AirPort Extreme (802.11a/b/g/n), Bluetooth 4.0, Gigabit Ethernet, a Firewire "800" port, two USB 3.0 ports, a "Thunderbolt" port, audio in/out, and an SDXC card slot.
  - jeeva 10y ago
    Just to point out that assuming "most wireless HID devices are Bluetooth" is likely incorrect - a huge amount of the devices I see come with a dongle of some kind, that plugs into... (you guessed it) USB A sockets.
    - Bud 10y ago
      You are mis-quoting me. I didn't say Bluetooth. I said wireless. That includes the stupid dongle-antennas.
- pkulak 10y ago
  HDMI, miniDP and SD ports should never be present on a "pro" machine of any kind. "Pro" doesn't mean "more". Sometimes it means less. Like fleet cars that don't have cruise control. You don't need cruise when your job is driving around the city and you shouldn't need a SD card slot for any job that's not photography.
  - cptskippy 10y ago
    3D Printers typically have SD or MicroSD slots for uploading STLs for unattended printing. Most electronic music equipment like keyboards, synths or sampler pads have SD/MicroSD as well. Hell a lot of shop tools like CNC mills and welders have SD Card slots. Don't most Action Cameras use SD or MicroSD? Most professional grade video cameras will record simultaneously to multiple media formats and one of those is always an SD Card. Anyone tinkering with a Raspberry Pi is going to need an SD reader too. If you're doing any data logging with embedded micro controllers then you're probably using SD or MicroSD as well.
  - heartbreak 10y ago
    And if your job is photography, you're not using SD.
    - robhu 10y ago
      What do you mean? A lot of cameras today use SD cards, e.g. Nikon D810 / D500.
      - rbritton 10y ago
        Probably CF cards. Most pro-level cameras have that as the primary card slot with some also offering a secondary card slot that is SD. Our cameras all do. The standard slot on regular cameras tends to be SD, though.
  - toyg 10y ago
    My professional photographer friend will be mightily pissed off by the loss of SD slots. Every dongle is a bit more gear he has to drag around the city while shooting. My professional radio guy will be mightily pissed off at losing HDMI. Or rather would be, if he were still bound to the Apple ecosystem - he left it several years ago, never to return, because the price/performance ratio on their desktops went down the toilet when they stopped making user-upgradeable "cheesegraters". Apple has gradually abandoned the Pro market. I thought they were simply trying to move everyone to laptops, but now I can see that they really have no use for non-iDevices.
- oatmealsnap 10y ago
  Wouldn't you want to rely on an professional external DAC and transfer the audio to your computer digitally instead of having an audio-in port?
  - ynniv 10y ago
    I didn't want to call it a mic port for just that reason: it also accepted lossless digital audio.
FireBeyond 10y ago
And only $39 a pop for USB-C Lightning cables. That's some balls, Apple.
- Casseres 10y ago
  >And only $39 a pop for USB-C Lightning cables. >That's some balls, Apple. No, that's courage. /s Although I'm surprised they left the headphone jack if removing it is supposed to be "the future". There seems to be some discontinuity between the Macbook and iPhone lines.
  - organsnyder 10y ago
    > There seems to be some discontinuity between the Macbook and iPhone lines. I'm amused that I'll be able to charge my Nexus 6P with my Macbook Pro charger (unless Apple really screws something up), but my colleague won't be able to charge his iPhone.
    - Casseres 10y ago
      Real courage would be to admit that USB-C is better than Lightening, and to switch their new iPhones to USB-C.
      - AtheistOfFail 10y ago
        But you can't charge licensing fees on that. The issue is that Apple is making you a third party customer while they rake in cash from selling a non-standard connector. Reminds me of Firewire, it should die quickly.
        clintonb 10y ago
        FireWire had higher bandwidth than USB 1.0/1.1. USB 2.0 had higher bandwidth (480 Mbps) in bursts. FireWire (due to the dedicated hardware) could sustain 400 Mbps transfers. The use of FireWire on the first iPods and DV cameras was a good choice.
goerz 10y ago
I find the lack of at least one legacy USB port extremely worrying. Will the following work with a USB to Firewire/USB-C dongle? * boot from USB (bootable CarbonCopyCloner backup) * Yubikey (government issued, so I can't easily get an updated key) * Kensington R800 presenter (supposedly, it's "just a USB keyboard", but I've had it not work via Bluetooth dongle or with the USB to Lightning dongle for the iPad, even though regular USB keyboards work)
- imtringued 10y ago
  USB C is just the form factor. USB 3.1 Gen 2 is commonly supported by USB C ports. USB 3.1 Gen 2 is backwards compatible with USB 3.0/3.1 and 2.0 but not USB 1.0/1.1. You may need an active adapter or hub from 2.0 to 1.1 instead of just a passive cable.

computmaxer 10y ago

Four standard (non-proprietary) multi-use ports is a complaint? No innovative features? What do you call a ribbon display that no one has ever done before? No expansion - nothing new to the MBP line.

twic 10y ago
> No innovative features? What do you call a ribbon display that no one has ever done before? A gimmick.
- bluthru 10y ago
  Your hands don't have to move around as much to select a toolbar item and you don't have to move your hands up to the screen like a surface. I think the touch bar will be great for productivity.
- jwalton 10y ago
  A $600 USD gimmick, it seems.
  - igravious 10y ago
    Seems the price differential between the 2 port TB-3 13" and the 4 port TB-3 13" w\ Touch Bar & Touch ID is $300 USD. If I'm not mistaken. I went o_O … Seems steep. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    - vilhelm_s 10y ago
      The model with the touchbar also has a faster CPU, I guess some of the price difference is due to that.
- elif 10y ago
  I call it a battery discharger.
- lostgame 10y ago
  > No innovative features? What do you call a ribbon display that no one has ever done before? >A gimmick. pwn'd so true.

dougbarrett 10y ago

The Macbook Pro they're boasting as a possible replacement for the Air has the new key tech which they mentioned in the keynote as having more travel distance, it keeps the old FN keys, and it has two thunderbolt ports. So yes, changing the ports isn't ideal and only having one to use to plug in peripherals which will most likely mean a hub is required is a bit of a pain, but the low end doesn't even include the touch bar so I'm not sure what you're getting upset about? Plus, the current generation of Macbook Pros weren't expandible as far as I'm aware? I've got the 15" rMBP and I can't upgrade anything within it, so I doubt Apple is too concerned anymore about allowing expansion in their laptops and I could see that trend spreading across the rest of the industry as well.

Avenger42 10y ago
The new keyboard has less key travel, not more. From the Macbook page: > So we designed a unique butterfly mechanism, which is wider than the scissor mechanism and has a single assembly made from a stiffer material — allowing for a more stable, responsive key that takes up less vertical space.
- dougbarrett 10y ago
  that's interesting, I could have sworn I heard them say it had more travel distance, or maybe it was the impression of more travel.
  - ant6n 10y ago
    I thought they said it had more travel than the butterfly keyboard that's used in the macbook without name. I mean the super thin 12" one they came up with last year.
- cschmidt 10y ago
  They are a v2 of the MacBook keyboards, and I believe they said that the v2 has more travel compared to the v1. That's what the OP is saying. Not sure how that v2 would compare to the current MacBook Pro keyboards.

ddorian43 10y ago

Sorry buddy but it will be a Mac again. It's ok, you'll find some good reasons.

robterrell 10y ago

To me, the signature feature of the MacBook Air is the low-wattage CPU. And maybe the non-retina display. This new MacBook Pro is a Skylake i7. Not at all in the same ballpark.

wlesieutre 10y ago
The 15" is quad core i7, the 13" is dual core i5.
- xufi 10y ago
  and the 15'' is $2299 rip my wallet if I choose to get one and still on 16gb ram

rymate1234 10y ago

I dunno, the base model has two Thunderbolt 3 / USB type C ports, and the model with the touch bar has 4 of these ports. All models appear to have the headphone jack. It might only be two ports on the base model, but it's ports that are significantly more versatile than standard USB.

raesene6 10y ago
ironically of course if you've got a new iPhone, you'll need an adapter to use the headset on the Macbook pro. The problem, to me, of the port selection is that it means pretty much every user is going to have to carry a selection of adapters for years to come given the installed base of USB peripherals + things like projectors that do not have a USB-C port. Other laptops seem to do a better job of phasing things in gradually introducing USB-C ports whilst not immediately dropping the older ones to give people time to adapt.
- gnicholas 10y ago
  Precisely. When will Apple start shipping iOS devices with USB C chargers? When will the desktops move over to this "better" standard? If the main impetus is thinness (which isn't important for desktops), then will we have years of transition, where peripherals come with cables that may or may not work, depending on computer type?
  - imtringued 10y ago
    >When will the desktops move over to this "better" standard? A lot of desktop mainboards already have one USB C port. http://www.gigabyte.com/fileupload/product/2/5521/20150826155400_big.png http://www.gigabyte.com/fileupload/product/2/5521/2015082615...

kylec 10y ago

You must have missed the fact that you can type emojis on the touch bar

ynniv 10y ago
This is the proper response.
dr1337 10y ago
Gotta use more emojis in my Swift code now.
- xHopen 10y ago
  With a "\u{24}" up
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jakebasile 10y ago
Maybe I can remap some emoji to Vim functions.
- stephenr 10y ago
  The whole point is that you could have contextual 'buttons' that are appropriate for what you're doing in <App> But that sounds too much like an easy solution for Vim users, and what would they have to piss and moan about then?
  - jakebasile 10y ago
    I already have contextual buttons. I remap keys to what I want, that's one of the main benefits of Vim's multi modal system. I don't need an expensive gimmick to do so.
    - stephenr 10y ago

MollyR 10y ago

I'm not sure what laptop to get next either. This "pro" version and the ribbon are not a good fit for me. I'm really looking closely at the new MS surface books.

rhexs 10y ago
I've owned every version of the Surface Pro and used the Surface Book for around two weeks before returning it. I finally gave up on the Surface Pro 4 and switched to a 2009 Core 2 Duo Macbook Pro I picked up on eBay. Surface Pros: Beautiful hardware, touchscreen works decently, Windows 10 is generally a decent operating system. Keyboard is pretty neat. Cons: Tremendously buggy software and hardware integration. The Surface Pro 4/Book dock was effectively useless until several firmware updates. Tons and tons of issues -- I had to warranty repair the Surface Pro 4 three times before giving up and selling it. Still plenty of hardware bugs. Scaling on Windows 10 isn't very good outside of most MS developed apps. Battery life is pretty terrible for what it should be. (Do not get an i7 version -- sucks down battery. i5 is better) Hard to do productivity work on the Pro 4 as I really prefer a standard 13 inch notebook minimum. The Book does solve this issue, but I never felt the need to pay the huge price premium for tablet mode. Video drivers for the Pro 4/Book were crashing when browsing for several months after launch. At the end of the day, taking notes in a notebook isn't quite as convenient but just works better than using the pen. I love the potential the Surface line has, but that's just it, potential. Microsoft needs to focus 10x more on QA. If they control the hardware and software, the result needs to be as seamless as it usually is (or was) on Apple devices. I'd love to see a lower priced Surface Laptop without the screen gimmick for professionals.
- MollyR 10y ago
  Wow thanks for the review! Did you ever try installing linux on it ?
  - eightysixfour 10y ago
    Just a note from another user - I bought a book when they first came out and was disappointed in the poor battery management and some serious driver issues. I returned it. Recently I had a chance to use one for a week and ended up buying it. My big issues were all fixed and it has been a great daily driver for the last month or so. The linux susbsystem has been very useful if you play within it s boundaries and I'm happy with it as a development machine.

dandandans 10y ago

I think you are confusing MacBook Air with MacBook. The Air has the pre-shallow keyboard, and standard port array (USB 3 x2, SD, MagSafe, and TB). Minus the non-retina screen, the 13" Air is a very capable dev machine with great battery life in a light and compact form factor.

edoloughlin 10y ago

So the new Macbook is a scaled up phone and the new Macbook Pro is a scaled up Air.

AndrewKemendo 10y ago

Twenty years of using Macs and I'm not sure what my next laptop is going to be. I gotta say the Surface Book has been really great. Especially as it supports the new MSVR and Hololens out of the box for the DGPU version.

ynniv 10y ago
How's the keyboard?
- AndrewKemendo 10y ago
  Good balance between quiet and haptic. Not quite mechanical click quality but more satisfying than other super soft touch ones.
masklinn 10y ago
My beefs are the low-voltage CPUs and that it's even more expensive than the MBP if you want 16GB RAM ($2700, though you do get 512GB SSD for that which brings the MBP to $2600), let alone 1TB SSD (that's $3300 versus $3000 on the MBP). And that's comparing to the 15" rMBP, the 13" is $2200 (16/512) / $2600 (16/1TB), though in that case the SB adds a dGPU. And battery life in both cases of course. And the SB doesn't have a single type-C port let alone TB3.

rayiner 10y ago

What do you mean "no ports?" Four USB-C thunderbolt ports--how much more ports do you need? They keyboard is also a huge draw for me--I love the MB's keyboard. It's very precise. I'm a light typer so I don't care about key travel. My big concern is how much they had to shrink the battery to shave off the half-pound.

lukeasrodgers 10y ago

I think initially "pro" actually meant "for professional users," but it's clearly now just a marketing term. As a professional user, I want at least a mixture of port options (hdmi, usb) and a keyboard that supports touch-typing, not some gimmicky band I'm going to have to look at to see what it's showing. I've been using macs for ~20 years but my next laptop will not be from Apple.

frou_dh 10y ago
If we get serious, then it could be said that it's negligent for PCs claiming to be for Pro use not to use ECC memory. ECC and Xeons aren't fringe exotic technology. Intel obviously has some kind of hang-up with their market segmentation though.
- chrisper 10y ago
  The Thinkpads, which are pro, do support ECC and Xeons. Pretty sure, Dell has laptops like that, too.
  - strictnein 10y ago
    HP does as well with their ZBook line.
- xorblurb 10y ago
  The whole story about ECC ram in the computer industry is completely insane. RAM is basically the only place in most PC not protected by a form of ECC, except on expensive (or at least less produced) Xeon (or maybe some AMD, I don't know which ones). I don't know if caches on most ARM processors have ECC, but the situation might very well be the same on smartphone. Sad...
  - secabeen 10y ago
    Strangely, there are a bunch of low-end pentiums that support ECC.

mi100hael 10y ago

I was in the same boat about six months ago when I was fed up with instability in OS X. Time Machine backups getting corrupted, not waking from sleep, etc. I switched to a Dell M5510 running Linux and haven't looked back. Battery life isn't as good, but otherwise it's been great. Touch screen works fine, trackpad clicks a little heavy but works fine, all the standard ports and an included network dongle, Libre Office gets the job done, Netflix still works on Chrome, no random crashes or freezes, and no proprietary lock-in, privacy concerns, or cloud nonsense. Best of all it's basically the same size & weight as a MBP, not your average clunky PC monstrosity.

mixedCase 10y ago
>trackpad clicks a little heavy Don't like tap to click? Libinput supports it, I thought it was the default on all distros even.
- rhodysurf 10y ago
  Its not enabled by default in gnome
thijsvandien 10y ago
The most ridiculous thing about this laptop is that it comes with a Xeon CPU, yet no option for ECC RAM.
lsadam0 10y ago
I'm curious what sort of work you were doing in OS X?

rwhitman 10y ago

I get the sense that there is a movement inside Apple right now to abandon the professional market. Everything they've released lately for pros has been half-hearted at best. I'm getting increasingly concerned that one day soon they will drop Mac OS products altogether and just leave us to the wolves

jjawssd 10y ago
The writing is on the walls
tedmiston 10y ago
I hope not. I know more professional developers in startups using Apple laptops over anything else on the market. They have to recognize the size of that market. Edit: Added "in startups"
- rwhitman 10y ago
  Geographically once you get outside of major tech hubs, the Mac's market share as a developer workstation is quite tiny. I remember one time I was sent out on site to a big corp in an office park in New Jersey and everyone in the cubicles around me came up and cracked jokes about my MacBook, tried to challenge me because I wasn't a "real developer" since I used a Mac etc. Honestly I'd guess the main people keeping the Mac line afloat at Apple are probably their own engineering staff. Imagine having to develop Apple products on another OS, how frustrating that would be
  - gm-conspiracy 10y ago
    Imagine having to develop Apple products on another OS, how frustrating that would be That future seems to almost be here. Or the ecosystem will be abandoned.
hellofunk 10y ago
But then they would have nothing to write iOS apps, so I don't think that will happen.

jaxn 10y ago

I am feeling the same way, except that I know what my next laptop will be. I am ordering a Surface Book. The weird screen thing looks terrible on this MBP. It will require me to look at my keyboard, not my screen. Meanwhile, the Surface Book gives me a touch screen (which is important to me because I create web software that is used on touch screens), the pen is great, the dial looks interesting, so I will probably buy that too. The Surface Book should work great on my desk with an additional monitor and keyboard / mouse / dial. Whereas the MBP completely loses the utility of that weird touch bar thing in that same setup. Also, I use virtualization on my Mac to develop a .NET app. So, now I don't have function keys for the guest OS? It was developers who led the way to Apple's dominance in the notebook space, and I suspect it will be developers who lead the migration in the opposite way. The question for me is, will I end up ditching the iPhone too?

asenna 10y ago
> The question for me is, will I end up ditching the iPhone too? You must've read the discussions earlier but I really think it's worth giving the Google Pixels a shot.
gm-conspiracy 10y ago
So, you bring up a really good point: Whereas the MBP completely loses the utility of that weird touch bar thing in that same setup. The majority of professionals seem to use the MPB with an external display and keyboard, so the new MBP keyboard will not be touched at all. Maybe they will update the bluetooth keyboard with a display?
usaphp 10y ago
> "Meanwhile, the Surface Book gives me a touch screen (which is important to me because I create web software that is used on touch screens)," Have you ever tried using touch screen on windows as a developer? I just don't understand how people can list it as a benefit, windows interface especially in any apps for developers is horrible for touch use, and don't forget that in order for you to touch the screen you have to raise your hand , how many times a day can you do that without your shoulders being sore? The thing I applaud Apple for is standing (at least here) the ground and not going with a touch screen for laptops, I think having a touchscreen in a laptop is a horrendous and useless idea, touch screens should only be on the object where you already lay your arms on, like keyboard in this case with Apple, having a touch screen 5 feet away from your hands will make you not want to use it, and that's not even considering OS your which is not meant for that

jjawssd 10y ago

I'm looking at Dell Precision 7510 series for my next update away from Macbook Pro 15 (2015)

blockoperation 10y ago
I love my 7510 and I'd definitely recommend it, but the keyboards are a bit of a lottery (this probably applies to all current Latitudes and Precisions, as they all look to use the same boards). There are two different designs that I've encountered, with one of them being massively inferior (noticeably mushier feel, and a weak point on the arrow key clips that gets worse over time, until the clip starts 'expanding' under pressure, causing it to get stuck or pop off of the board).
- rayiner 10y ago
  Coil whine? EDIT: Jesus, it's a full 1/3 heavier than the 2015 rMBP, with a smaller battery.
  - blockoperation 10y ago
    No coil whine on my one at least, but maybe I'm just lucky. I doubt weight is much of a factor for most people considering one of these things, but yeah they are a bit heavy (they can take a lot of abuse, though).

ryanSrich 10y ago

Apple's got me locked in until their OS runs on something else.

artursapek 10y ago
So for eternity?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

pkulak 10y ago

What's the best laptop for Linux these days? It's been over a decade for me since I touched one. Will I still need to mess with xorg.conf every second week?

angryasian 10y ago
no if you go with the laptop most are already configured for you and nvidia and ati support is much improved. You can do everything with the gui.
- lucb1e 10y ago
  > you can do everything via the gui Or not. I didn't change my default settings and I'm not running Linux Mint or Ubuntu or some other newbie friendly distro. It's just all taken care of. At least games run fine, though it must be said that the games I play are either from '99 or not graphics-heavy. Factorio is the heaviest one.
  - pkulak 10y ago
    What laptop are you using, if you don't mind my asking? Is there somewhere where someone has explicitly listed out the laptops that are most compatible with most Linux distros?
    - lucb1e 10y ago
      I don't know about a list of models but most laptops work quite fine for me. Usually I prefer Intel and nVidia so that might or might not have something to do with it. I've got an Asus N56VB S4054H myself and replaced the HDD with a Plextor 256GB SSD.

super_mario 10y ago

Indeed. Didn't we try UIs that change on the user dynamically and concluded they absolutely suck (remember the Windows 98 start menu re-ordering menu item position based on frequency of use?). They go against muscle memory training, and decades (centuries?) of convention. For someone who spends the day in Terminal (bash with readline in Vim editing mode) and Vim, missing physical ESC key is going to be a huge pain in the ass. So, after a decade of Apple hardware I am yet again on the cross roads looking for decent hardware and OS to go with it. As it stands now, Linux with PC hardware is going to be the only real option. At least there are good mechanical keyboard for PCs.

ant6n 10y ago
They still have the kid's version that has an escape key.
- super_mario 10y ago
  You got that all wrong. The least powerful machine is for grownups. The more powerful ones are for kids who like colorful glowing bar that flashes from time to time to provide entertainment and distract them from facebook and twitter posting.

gniv 10y ago

I don't think they cater to those types of professionals. The demand from corporations is probably so high that that's who they need to keep happy.

e40 10y ago

They removed the escape key. Wait, what? Holy crap, that's amazingly stupid.

dclowd9901 10y ago

Brilliant time for someone to make a move in the Linux space. I do not want a Windows box, but would love something as refined as a Mac running a slick GUI on top of Linux.

emanuelev 10y ago

Precisely how I feel. Also, what's the deal with the ports? At the moment it seems that you have to carry a dongle/adapter for every single Apple device, that's crazy. After eight years with my macbook it's time to give linux a real shot on my next laptop.