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I think the worst part about this is that I wasn't even surprised throughout the entire story. Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncal

I think the worst part about this is that I wasn't even surprised throughout the entire story. Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncalled for threats from clients to give you a bad review or try to suspend your account. It's the reason I gave up on working on platforms like Upwork and Freelancer almost immediately. Building a personal network is way easier to find contract work and you'll make more money in the end while creating real relationships that will help you foster your career. I'm sorry this happened to you, and I'm super glad you revealed this persons name publicly. Good form.

forgetsusername 10y ago
>Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncalled for threats from clients to give you a bad review or try to suspend your account. It's amazing, isn't it? These are people who require outside expertise (they're hiring you after all) and yet do everything they can to make you feel small and worthless. It's utterly backwards. I wonder how many of these abusive people are "idea" guys? Regardless, utterly embarrassing on the part of Upwork. Glad they're being called out. I hope the internet has its way with them.
- negamax 10y ago
  This has more to do with low barrier to entry in any online platform. For any job there could be zillions of bids, going down spiral. All claiming they can do the job. It creates a sort of situation where people don't realise that their task is to find needle in a haystack As someone who has worked on oDesk and made good money. You also need to do client filtering. 1. Check their total expense 2. Number of people hired, on hire 3. How much are they paying them 4. Feedback given All this information is available.
- davemel37 10y ago
  >do everything they can to make you feel small and worthless. It's utterly backwards. Backwards? That's a bizarre word to use to describe behavior that is NEVER appropriate. Are you implying that the freelancers should be making the employers feel small and worthless? > I wonder how many of these abusive people are "idea" guys? Honestly, I have no idea what you mean by "idea guys" and the implied correlation to "abusive people"? From reading your comment, it sounds like you missed the point completely. This is not a freelancer vs. employer or developer vs. idea guy situation, this is a simple case of narcissist vs. victim. The situation can be reversed and be just as abusive and horrible. An outside expert doing everything they can to make an "idea guy" feel small and worthless! The point is not whether the employer has the right to push around the freelancer, or the respect you think an employer should have when needing outside expertise. The point is everyone is a human being that deserves to be treated with respect. It is too easy to not consider the other person when working through a platform like Upwork or on the internet at large...This is a cautionary tale about the importance of remembering that there is a human being on the other side of the screen!
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    > Are you implying that the freelancers should be making the employers feel small and worthless? He's saying employers should show freelancers respect.
    - davemel37 10y ago
      Shouldn't respect be a two way street? His comment implies it should be a one way, just the opposite way of this evil Kevin guy. Edit: Just to be clear, I am drawing my assumption from the second part of his post that tries to correlate "idea guys" to "abusive people", almost as if he equates idea guys that try to hire developers as somehow "less than" him.
      - Mithaldu 10y ago
        You're doing the equivalent of yelling "white lives matter too" at a guy saying "black lives matter". Almost all freelancers respect their clients, and bend over backwards to please them, even if they don't get the same respect back. A client that understands and respects their freelancers is rare.
        davemel37 10y ago
        I disagree. His comment about "idea guys" is indicative of him saying "cops lives dont matter" not "black lives matter" Had his comment not stuck in that tell, I would agree with you. But he certainly seems to be implying something more malicious than you noticed.
      - forgetsusername 10y ago
        >almost as if he equates idea guys that try to hire developers as somehow "less than" him. I used "idea guys" in quotes because I'm referencing a specific type of person who you may not be familiar with, but I'm sure many other people here are, especially in the freelancing world. If you read the post, you can spot the cliche. Having an idea, no matter how good it is (and believe me when I say I'm not one of those "ideas are worthless" guys) only gets you so far. At some point you need talented, skilled people to help execute on it. And it's far easier for the execution guys to crib an idea than it is for the idea guy to copy the execution skills. Basically, the "idea guys" like to place themselves at the top of the pyramid, and think everyone else owes them something.
scottmmjackson 10y ago
I wasn't surprised when I found out it was a law firm either. I've had the good fortune to work with some of the good ones, but legal marketing in general requires a very sensitive a-hole detector.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  If it's a law firm, then to me it is surprising that they would actively interfere with this guy's other professional relationships. If this really is as it appears to be, the potential damages both from interference with existing relationships and from defamation surely put this in "worth talking to a lawyer" territory in most places.
  - dexterdog 10y ago
    But do you really want to get into a legal battle as an individual with a law firm?
    - Silhouette 10y ago
      That's what you consult an actual lawyer for. In my country, if they'd interfered with existing business relationships causing expected revenues to be lost, they'd made potentially libellous statements that caused a major source of expected future revenues to permanently block access, there was ample written evidence that they did these things deliberately and that actual losses were and would continue to result, and there was ample evidence that the victim had previously been well-regarded and able to command a certain rate for their services, I wouldn't want to be their position, law firm or not. Situations like this are exactly why defamation cases can result in such huge damages being awarded.
      - dexterdog 10y ago
        Well, maybe I'm just jaded by a recent experience with a former business partner who was an attorney himself. They guy had provably stolen over $100K from the company and our attorney basically charged us $20K to let him go. It was a valuable lesson to me to never go into business with an attorney again.
nmat 10y ago
Aren't people on this thread being too harsh on Upwork? I agree that there are problems with the way it works, but nothing is ever perfect. I happen to be from a country with a lower cost of living than US/UK and Upwork allows me to do remote freelancing and charge more than I would be able to charge for work in person. Also, the world is full of clients that won't pay for your work after you deliver it. I don't know exactly how helpful Upwork can be in such cases, but I bet it is better than if I was alone trying to contact a non-paying client 8000km away. I guess you need to choose your clients carefully, whether you are working remotely or in person, always watch out for red flags and get out of the deal as soon as you see them.
- soreasan 10y ago
  >I happen to be from a country with a lower cost of living than US/UK and Upwork allows me to do remote freelancing and charge more than I would be able to charge for work in person. This is part of the problem for freelancers who do live in the US/UK. They're expected to work for less than they could charge in person because they're competing internationally with people who live in areas with much lower cost of living.. In addition, as the article mentions, a big problem is the amount of dishonesty. The fact that someone could have their livelihood shut down overnight by one abusive client is ridiculous.
  - nmat 10y ago
    > In addition, as the article mentions, a big problem is the amount of dishonesty. The fact that someone could have their livelihood shut down overnight by one abusive client is ridiculous. Once you are out there and have your website/blog, anyone can hassle you really, but I agree that Upwork may make it easier. As for the other point, aren't we in a global economy? When you bring the freelance business to an online marketplace you are competing with the world, there's no way around it. I mean, I buy things from China on ebay because it's cheaper than buying them in a store. I also buy clothes from Zara, H&M, Primark, etc. that are made in Bangladesh by a family earning $1 a day. Remote contracting of people in cheaper countries is inevitable.
  - StrangeWill 10y ago
webtechgal 10y ago
> Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncalled for threats from clients to give you a bad review or try to suspend your account. This. Totally. Several times, at 3/3 platforms where I've been working (for over two years now). Surprisingly (not), they (the clients) can do this and get away with it any time, but I (the freelancer) can't.
- znpy 10y ago
  You know... Who has the money? Who has Upwork to please? The client. So what is your role in Upwork? Let me tell you what I have realised... Do you pay to use Upwork? Not directly (you're not the one fueling the whole thing). Are you paid to use Upwork? No, because the money you get is a counterpart for the work you perform. So... What is the your role in Upwork? Well, you're the product being sold. In any case you will always lose. You are not putting money into Upwork, but the client is. And the customer is always right. Plus, they have recently raised their cut, like a lot.
  - erklik 10y ago
    Exactly. I realised how true this is very recently. A AirBnb host decided to kick me out early without refunding anything and i escalated it. The swiftness that their customer service showed me in getting a refund without regards to the "feelings" of the host shows how i am more important to AirBnb. This is because the Host is the product, while i am their Customer. and Apparently, the Customer is always right.
  - anovikov 10y ago
    It depends on what sort of freelancer you are. What is your standing with it. If you are a platinum or higher contractor with $500K+ of money earned and 10K hours in your history, you can get away with a lot of things, and support is very nice to you. If some casual client tries to threaten you, you just send the screenshot to them and client simply gets banned (and there is a provision for that in their ToS, called blackmail by a customer). Really, Upwork will block you only if you have provably scammed your client, or engaged in criminal activity like hacking - they obviously don't want to get into legal fights so they have zero tolerance policy against that, or if they have good reasons to suspect that you drive your clients off the platform, which is also explainable (and after recent reduction of commissions, that is also very stupid to do). Re: reduction of commissions: obviously you don't try to circumvent Upwork with a new client, because you don't trust him yet and need payment protection which Upwork provides. When you know the client though, you are already past the $10K point earnings with him and your commission lowers to 5%. You don't want to get into trouble and risk losing your primary sales channel over 5%. 'Increasing their cut, like a lot' is a NONSENSE. 20% applies to first $500 only, so it is max $50 increase of commission per client. Is that such a significant figure? That also drew out a lot of spammers. If my sales funnel got widened by 10% (and it definitely did), i'd happily shell out $50 for that. It is optimal if client acquisition cost is over $500 - and in programming, if you can scalably attract clients for $500 a pop you are going to get really rich, quickly. I'd happily pay $1000 a pop to get clients like my average client, if you can get me a couple of those per week. I thought of and actually suggested Upwork to remove any free contacts per month, so project bid is always paid (even if cheap). For the same reason: it will drive off spammers and simplify sales, and improve client image of the platform (being a customer myself a little, it gets frustrating how much spam you get)
ptero 10y ago
I am pretty sure that the client sharing salesforce login information was against salesforce agreements. That should be made clear to upwork and hopefully they investigate. Whether developer works with upwork anymore or not IMO it is very important to set the record straight even if this takes a while. On the blog post, my 2c (not as a criticism, but as an opinion with 20/20 hindsight). 1. Shadi should have moved away from the client cleanly and quicker. When he heard that they are not going to pay at his rate / "not even our CEO makes that" and as he already had strong indication that it is not working out it would be better to apologize and move on (use "sorry, my rate is fixed" as a perfectly good excuse). 2. Give more time to upwork to investigate. They obviously value clients more than developers, so first reaction is to go with the client in a dispute. Escalating to the people who do not have to follow a standard script can take weeks. By posting "upwork sucks" too early he burned the bridges and made any real investigation highly unlikely.
- chmike 10y ago
  I suspect that upwork received threats of legal action if they didn't terminate the account. They took the easiest path. Well the path they assumed, was easiest. Anyway, this shows poor crisis and damage control management.

forgetsusername 10y ago

>Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncalled for threats from clients to give you a bad review or try to suspend your account. It's amazing, isn't it? These are people who require outside expertise (they're hiring you after all) and yet do everything they can to make you feel small and worthless. It's utterly backwards. I wonder how many of these abusive people are "idea" guys? Regardless, utterly embarrassing on the part of Upwork. Glad they're being called out. I hope the internet has its way with them.

negamax 10y ago
This has more to do with low barrier to entry in any online platform. For any job there could be zillions of bids, going down spiral. All claiming they can do the job. It creates a sort of situation where people don't realise that their task is to find needle in a haystack As someone who has worked on oDesk and made good money. You also need to do client filtering. 1. Check their total expense 2. Number of people hired, on hire 3. How much are they paying them 4. Feedback given All this information is available.
davemel37 10y ago
>do everything they can to make you feel small and worthless. It's utterly backwards. Backwards? That's a bizarre word to use to describe behavior that is NEVER appropriate. Are you implying that the freelancers should be making the employers feel small and worthless? > I wonder how many of these abusive people are "idea" guys? Honestly, I have no idea what you mean by "idea guys" and the implied correlation to "abusive people"? From reading your comment, it sounds like you missed the point completely. This is not a freelancer vs. employer or developer vs. idea guy situation, this is a simple case of narcissist vs. victim. The situation can be reversed and be just as abusive and horrible. An outside expert doing everything they can to make an "idea guy" feel small and worthless! The point is not whether the employer has the right to push around the freelancer, or the respect you think an employer should have when needing outside expertise. The point is everyone is a human being that deserves to be treated with respect. It is too easy to not consider the other person when working through a platform like Upwork or on the internet at large...This is a cautionary tale about the importance of remembering that there is a human being on the other side of the screen!
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  > Are you implying that the freelancers should be making the employers feel small and worthless? He's saying employers should show freelancers respect.
  - davemel37 10y ago
    Shouldn't respect be a two way street? His comment implies it should be a one way, just the opposite way of this evil Kevin guy. Edit: Just to be clear, I am drawing my assumption from the second part of his post that tries to correlate "idea guys" to "abusive people", almost as if he equates idea guys that try to hire developers as somehow "less than" him.
    - Mithaldu 10y ago
      You're doing the equivalent of yelling "white lives matter too" at a guy saying "black lives matter". Almost all freelancers respect their clients, and bend over backwards to please them, even if they don't get the same respect back. A client that understands and respects their freelancers is rare.
      - davemel37 10y ago
        I disagree. His comment about "idea guys" is indicative of him saying "cops lives dont matter" not "black lives matter" Had his comment not stuck in that tell, I would agree with you. But he certainly seems to be implying something more malicious than you noticed.
    - forgetsusername 10y ago
      >almost as if he equates idea guys that try to hire developers as somehow "less than" him. I used "idea guys" in quotes because I'm referencing a specific type of person who you may not be familiar with, but I'm sure many other people here are, especially in the freelancing world. If you read the post, you can spot the cliche. Having an idea, no matter how good it is (and believe me when I say I'm not one of those "ideas are worthless" guys) only gets you so far. At some point you need talented, skilled people to help execute on it. And it's far easier for the execution guys to crib an idea than it is for the idea guy to copy the execution skills. Basically, the "idea guys" like to place themselves at the top of the pyramid, and think everyone else owes them something.

scottmmjackson 10y ago

I wasn't surprised when I found out it was a law firm either. I've had the good fortune to work with some of the good ones, but legal marketing in general requires a very sensitive a-hole detector.

Silhouette 10y ago
If it's a law firm, then to me it is surprising that they would actively interfere with this guy's other professional relationships. If this really is as it appears to be, the potential damages both from interference with existing relationships and from defamation surely put this in "worth talking to a lawyer" territory in most places.
- dexterdog 10y ago
  But do you really want to get into a legal battle as an individual with a law firm?
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    That's what you consult an actual lawyer for. In my country, if they'd interfered with existing business relationships causing expected revenues to be lost, they'd made potentially libellous statements that caused a major source of expected future revenues to permanently block access, there was ample written evidence that they did these things deliberately and that actual losses were and would continue to result, and there was ample evidence that the victim had previously been well-regarded and able to command a certain rate for their services, I wouldn't want to be their position, law firm or not. Situations like this are exactly why defamation cases can result in such huge damages being awarded.
    - dexterdog 10y ago
      Well, maybe I'm just jaded by a recent experience with a former business partner who was an attorney himself. They guy had provably stolen over $100K from the company and our attorney basically charged us $20K to let him go. It was a valuable lesson to me to never go into business with an attorney again.

nmat 10y ago

Aren't people on this thread being too harsh on Upwork? I agree that there are problems with the way it works, but nothing is ever perfect. I happen to be from a country with a lower cost of living than US/UK and Upwork allows me to do remote freelancing and charge more than I would be able to charge for work in person. Also, the world is full of clients that won't pay for your work after you deliver it. I don't know exactly how helpful Upwork can be in such cases, but I bet it is better than if I was alone trying to contact a non-paying client 8000km away. I guess you need to choose your clients carefully, whether you are working remotely or in person, always watch out for red flags and get out of the deal as soon as you see them.

soreasan 10y ago
>I happen to be from a country with a lower cost of living than US/UK and Upwork allows me to do remote freelancing and charge more than I would be able to charge for work in person. This is part of the problem for freelancers who do live in the US/UK. They're expected to work for less than they could charge in person because they're competing internationally with people who live in areas with much lower cost of living.. In addition, as the article mentions, a big problem is the amount of dishonesty. The fact that someone could have their livelihood shut down overnight by one abusive client is ridiculous.
- nmat 10y ago
  > In addition, as the article mentions, a big problem is the amount of dishonesty. The fact that someone could have their livelihood shut down overnight by one abusive client is ridiculous. Once you are out there and have your website/blog, anyone can hassle you really, but I agree that Upwork may make it easier. As for the other point, aren't we in a global economy? When you bring the freelance business to an online marketplace you are competing with the world, there's no way around it. I mean, I buy things from China on ebay because it's cheaper than buying them in a store. I also buy clothes from Zara, H&M, Primark, etc. that are made in Bangladesh by a family earning $1 a day. Remote contracting of people in cheaper countries is inevitable.
- StrangeWill 10y ago

webtechgal 10y ago

> Anyone who has been a freelancer has dealt with the random, uncalled for threats from clients to give you a bad review or try to suspend your account. This. Totally. Several times, at 3/3 platforms where I've been working (for over two years now). Surprisingly (not), they (the clients) can do this and get away with it any time, but I (the freelancer) can't.

znpy 10y ago
You know... Who has the money? Who has Upwork to please? The client. So what is your role in Upwork? Let me tell you what I have realised... Do you pay to use Upwork? Not directly (you're not the one fueling the whole thing). Are you paid to use Upwork? No, because the money you get is a counterpart for the work you perform. So... What is the your role in Upwork? Well, you're the product being sold. In any case you will always lose. You are not putting money into Upwork, but the client is. And the customer is always right. Plus, they have recently raised their cut, like a lot.
- erklik 10y ago
  Exactly. I realised how true this is very recently. A AirBnb host decided to kick me out early without refunding anything and i escalated it. The swiftness that their customer service showed me in getting a refund without regards to the "feelings" of the host shows how i am more important to AirBnb. This is because the Host is the product, while i am their Customer. and Apparently, the Customer is always right.
- anovikov 10y ago
  It depends on what sort of freelancer you are. What is your standing with it. If you are a platinum or higher contractor with $500K+ of money earned and 10K hours in your history, you can get away with a lot of things, and support is very nice to you. If some casual client tries to threaten you, you just send the screenshot to them and client simply gets banned (and there is a provision for that in their ToS, called blackmail by a customer). Really, Upwork will block you only if you have provably scammed your client, or engaged in criminal activity like hacking - they obviously don't want to get into legal fights so they have zero tolerance policy against that, or if they have good reasons to suspect that you drive your clients off the platform, which is also explainable (and after recent reduction of commissions, that is also very stupid to do). Re: reduction of commissions: obviously you don't try to circumvent Upwork with a new client, because you don't trust him yet and need payment protection which Upwork provides. When you know the client though, you are already past the $10K point earnings with him and your commission lowers to 5%. You don't want to get into trouble and risk losing your primary sales channel over 5%. 'Increasing their cut, like a lot' is a NONSENSE. 20% applies to first $500 only, so it is max $50 increase of commission per client. Is that such a significant figure? That also drew out a lot of spammers. If my sales funnel got widened by 10% (and it definitely did), i'd happily shell out $50 for that. It is optimal if client acquisition cost is over $500 - and in programming, if you can scalably attract clients for $500 a pop you are going to get really rich, quickly. I'd happily pay $1000 a pop to get clients like my average client, if you can get me a couple of those per week. I thought of and actually suggested Upwork to remove any free contacts per month, so project bid is always paid (even if cheap). For the same reason: it will drive off spammers and simplify sales, and improve client image of the platform (being a customer myself a little, it gets frustrating how much spam you get)

ptero 10y ago

I am pretty sure that the client sharing salesforce login information was against salesforce agreements. That should be made clear to upwork and hopefully they investigate. Whether developer works with upwork anymore or not IMO it is very important to set the record straight even if this takes a while. On the blog post, my 2c (not as a criticism, but as an opinion with 20/20 hindsight). 1. Shadi should have moved away from the client cleanly and quicker. When he heard that they are not going to pay at his rate / "not even our CEO makes that" and as he already had strong indication that it is not working out it would be better to apologize and move on (use "sorry, my rate is fixed" as a perfectly good excuse). 2. Give more time to upwork to investigate. They obviously value clients more than developers, so first reaction is to go with the client in a dispute. Escalating to the people who do not have to follow a standard script can take weeks. By posting "upwork sucks" too early he burned the bridges and made any real investigation highly unlikely.

chmike 10y ago
I suspect that upwork received threats of legal action if they didn't terminate the account. They took the easiest path. Well the path they assumed, was easiest. Anyway, this shows poor crisis and damage control management.