6 ms·

This whole premise is stupid. We don't seem to have a problem with the lack of female linesmen, plumbers, construction workers, electricians, HVAC specialists,

by jcnnghm 17y ago

This whole premise is stupid. We don't seem to have a problem with the lack of female linesmen, plumbers, construction workers, electricians, HVAC specialists, or garbage men. There isn't a pest control or sewage treatment Barbie. There also isn't a problem when 57% of college graduates are female. If women want to work in tech, nothing is stopping them. They can learn to program, and write code. This is something that you can teach yourself, you don't need to deal with or rely upon anyone else. It seems that the problem is, at least as described by the New York Times, that women don't want to log the hours, and they want to do something that's more social. That's fine, there is nothing wrong with that. But they may be better off doing something other than writing code if that's the case. Women log fewer hours in other areas as well. Female doctors see fewer patients than male doctors, and female lawyers are much less likely to make partner because they log far fewer hours than male lawyers. There is nothing wrong with this. Men and women are different. This isn't inherently bad or wrong. Disclaimer: My staff is 80% female. We received more qualified female applicants than male applicants, so that's who we hired.

mattm 17y ago
I just finished reading the book "Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell. He does a good job of going into more depth about the gender differences among different industries.
- jimbokun 17y ago
  My guess is that it's simply a rapidly fading anachronism. Young women in urban areas now make more than their male peers. Women now outnumber men in the work force and more men than women are unemployed. With women dominating college enrollments and graduation, for men to continue to earn more than women means that the positive correlation of income to level of education has to be reversed. As happens in military strategy, worrying about men out-earning women in the future seems an instance of fighting the last war.
  - whimsy 17y ago
    This is not something I'm well-educated in, but it's something I'm interested in. Do you have references to these statistics that you can share/cite/etc? I'd like to read more about what you've outlined.
    - jimbokun 17y ago
      Urban young women earn more than male counterparts: http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/wages/young_women_earn_more_than_men_in_big_cities.html http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/wages/young_women_... Women outnumber men in the workplace: http://www.electwomen.com/?p=3123 http://www.electwomen.com/?p=3123 Women outnumber men in college enrollment: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html (article about implications on dating) There are a ton more links on Google for each of these.
vog 17y ago
The fact that most women don't want to engage in programming is not a natural phenomenon - it's a big part of the problem. Far too many girls don't even consider trying to program, and regret that later in their lives. The first programmers (in a certain sense, wiring the first calculation machines in certain ways to achieve certain results) in fact were women, but something badly changed since then. So the missing women in computer science and programming can't be explained that way. This phenomenon is far more likely to be a problem (and also a shame) of our society. We'll have to work hard to fix it. However, fixing a problem is only possible if you don't deny it.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  > "The first programmers (in a certain sense, wiring the first calculation machines in certain ways to achieve certain results) in fact were women" I'd argue that "programming" in Ada Lovelace's age is more closely related to modern-day science than computer-science. Note also that scientific fields today are in no real shortage of women. I think the possibility needs to be raised that there's something fundamentally wrong with our field, or at least the people in it - an uncomfortable thought to be sure, but the sheer number of women (growing at that) in every "geeky" field but CS should be an indicator of something. This reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday... I'm just going to throw something out there: I know a lot of CS majors, and a lot of science majors. The science majors are a geeky bunch, but are normal, functioning people for the most part. They will just as easily gab all day about some biological principle as they will the latest pop sensation. Their geekiness complements their personality. Contrast this with the CS majors I know, where their geekiness is their personality. It's almost as if we try too hard to be the stereotype that it is, in the end, all that's left. Not to say all CS majors are like this, but the loudest, most visible ones certainly are, at least where I came from. I know it's a turnoff for me (and I'm a guy), I can't imagine how annoying that'd be for women.
  - patio11 17y ago
    Is there an objective standard for "normal, functioning people" or is this a slightly more sophisticated High School 2.0 way of partitioning hobbies or personality quirks into ones which are socially acceptable and ones which are not?
stse 17y ago
The US isn't exactly the most gender equal country in the world, so I'll be pretty surprised if women aren't being discriminated against in the tech industry.
scotty79 17y ago
> This whole premise is stupid. We don't seem to have a problem with the lack of female linesmen, plumbers, construction workers, electricians, HVAC specialists, or garbage men. Computer science and engineering has inherent research component in it. We do our little own discoveries on daily basis while researching annoying bugs. For research there is much value in diversity of approaches. That't why some people pity severe lack of women in computer science. They believe that this could increase diversity of approaches and give us better solutions. Also there is no lack of electricians today but the need for computer scientists is exploding. During the war electricians and other factory workers were needed so there was push for women to take these professions. We don't have a war now but soon development of our civilization might be capped by lack of competent people to program our machines. That would be severe waste of time.
bct 17y ago
> This whole premise is stupid. We don't seem to have a problem with the lack of female linesmen, plumbers, construction workers, electricians, HVAC specialists, or garbage men. So why do you think that is? It sounds to me like evidence that women don't want those jobs! Which would imply that the jobs that people make a fuss about - e.g. programming and other tech jobs - are ones that a significant portion of women do want, and feel discouraged from.
elptacek 17y ago
Here's an experiment: start shaving your legs, plucking your eyebrows and having other bits waxed. I suspect that the amount of time required to keep one's appendages hairless would fill up some of that delta of hours worked. Then there's matching shoes to outfits, struggling into hose... ...I'm joking, and yet I'm not. grin
- vog 17y ago
  According to the classic article on that topic, it's exactly that kind of comments that contributes most to the discomfort of women in male-dominated groups: Sexist jokes are the number one way to drive women out of any group, and they are more common than many people realize. [...] Sometimes he tells me that it's okay to make a sexist joke if it's true, or it's funny (funny to whom?). What some people fail to realize is that jokes about gender of any sort almost always make fun of women, and will make most women angry, regardless of the context. It doesn't help to first make a sexist joke about men and then one about women. [...] your comments and jokes are driving women away. If that's not what you want, then don't make sexist jokes. If you're not sure if your joke is sexist, find something else to say. [http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/] (The title suggests that the article is just about LUGs, but it's really about the whole computer-tech scene.)
Dove 17y ago
Thank you for saying this. As a woman in tech, I've never experienced any hostility, any implication I didn't belong. I was never intimidated by male professors and TAs and lab partners; I saw them as programmers first. I never lacked for role models and heroes because it never occurred to me to ask that they be women. I never had any requirements beyond 'great hacker'. What I did find frustrating was the obsequious encouragement to stay. Extra scholarships I qualified for. My pick of lab partners. Professional societies just for women. The expectation that enrolling or hiring me would make some bean counter somewhere very happy. It's frustrating because it leaves me wondering if I'm held to a lower standard. Would my work actually stand out if I weren't a woman? When people tell me I've done a good job, are they silently adding, ". . . for a girl" ? Am I going to get upvotes on this comment just for being a woman, and not necessarily for being insightful? Perhaps the most frustrating aspect of people trying to artificially import women into the field is that sometimes they succeed. There were always women who were there because they got extra attention and extra help. Women who wouldn't shut up about what it was like to be a developer and -- holy crap -- a woman! At the same time! It was, like, worth running a whole blog about! The more women like that there were running around, the harder I felt I had to work to differentiate myself from them. I don't want to be "second rate, but that's okay because thank God somebody got a woman to stick around." I don't want to be, "wow, that's awesome work and--HEY IT'S A WOMAN, THIS IS FRONT PAGE MATERIAL!" I want to do first rate work and be criticized and compete and fight obscurity right along with everyone else. There aren't many women in tech. And there are even fewer of them in the really upper echelons. Then again, that's true in general. Whatever the reason, women in tough, competitive fields are rare, and the tougher and more competitive and more elite it gets, the rarer they are. I don't know why that is. Frankly, I don't care. It's not a justification for hamstringing the women who are the exceptions--and no one throughout history has ever said it is. But treating it like a problem just makes problems for people like me. Seriously, just let people do what they want to do and be who they want to be and stop worrying about why they choose what they choose.
- vog 17y ago
  > As a woman in tech, I've never experienced any hostility, any implication I didn't belong. I was never intimidated by male professors and TAs and lab partners It is great to hear that this is possible. In my area, the only way to ensure that women aren't discriminated in a group is to 1) make the group consist of at least 30%-40% women, or 2) have a women as an authority in the group (presenter, boss, teacher, ...) Sometimes, even that doesn't help. So although you suffer from positive discrimination, I think it is really great that you don't suffer from any negative dicrimination. > Whatever the reason, women in tough, competitive fields are rare, and the tougher and more competitive and more elite it gets, the rarer they are. I don't know why that is. Frankly, I don't care. If I understand you correctly, you don't care because you are part of the elite. But what about the women who are just "average" in tech?
tjgabbour 17y ago
I do have a problem with going to say a programming conference and seeing that all the programmers are men, while those serving them (like receptionists and waitresses) are women. And generally these women are managed by men...

by jcnnghm 17y ago

mattm 17y ago

I just finished reading the book "Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell. He does a good job of going into more depth about the gender differences among different industries.

jimbokun 17y ago
My guess is that it's simply a rapidly fading anachronism. Young women in urban areas now make more than their male peers. Women now outnumber men in the work force and more men than women are unemployed. With women dominating college enrollments and graduation, for men to continue to earn more than women means that the positive correlation of income to level of education has to be reversed. As happens in military strategy, worrying about men out-earning women in the future seems an instance of fighting the last war.
- whimsy 17y ago
  This is not something I'm well-educated in, but it's something I'm interested in. Do you have references to these statistics that you can share/cite/etc? I'd like to read more about what you've outlined.
  - jimbokun 17y ago
    Urban young women earn more than male counterparts: http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/wages/young_women_earn_more_than_men_in_big_cities.html http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/wages/young_women_... Women outnumber men in the workplace: http://www.electwomen.com/?p=3123 http://www.electwomen.com/?p=3123 Women outnumber men in college enrollment: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html (article about implications on dating) There are a ton more links on Google for each of these.

vog 17y ago

The fact that most women don't want to engage in programming is not a natural phenomenon - it's a big part of the problem. Far too many girls don't even consider trying to program, and regret that later in their lives. The first programmers (in a certain sense, wiring the first calculation machines in certain ways to achieve certain results) in fact were women, but something badly changed since then. So the missing women in computer science and programming can't be explained that way. This phenomenon is far more likely to be a problem (and also a shame) of our society. We'll have to work hard to fix it. However, fixing a problem is only possible if you don't deny it.

potatolicious 17y ago
> "The first programmers (in a certain sense, wiring the first calculation machines in certain ways to achieve certain results) in fact were women" I'd argue that "programming" in Ada Lovelace's age is more closely related to modern-day science than computer-science. Note also that scientific fields today are in no real shortage of women. I think the possibility needs to be raised that there's something fundamentally wrong with our field, or at least the people in it - an uncomfortable thought to be sure, but the sheer number of women (growing at that) in every "geeky" field but CS should be an indicator of something. This reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday... I'm just going to throw something out there: I know a lot of CS majors, and a lot of science majors. The science majors are a geeky bunch, but are normal, functioning people for the most part. They will just as easily gab all day about some biological principle as they will the latest pop sensation. Their geekiness complements their personality. Contrast this with the CS majors I know, where their geekiness is their personality. It's almost as if we try too hard to be the stereotype that it is, in the end, all that's left. Not to say all CS majors are like this, but the loudest, most visible ones certainly are, at least where I came from. I know it's a turnoff for me (and I'm a guy), I can't imagine how annoying that'd be for women.
- patio11 17y ago
  Is there an objective standard for "normal, functioning people" or is this a slightly more sophisticated High School 2.0 way of partitioning hobbies or personality quirks into ones which are socially acceptable and ones which are not?

stse 17y ago

The US isn't exactly the most gender equal country in the world, so I'll be pretty surprised if women aren't being discriminated against in the tech industry.

scotty79 17y ago

> This whole premise is stupid. We don't seem to have a problem with the lack of female linesmen, plumbers, construction workers, electricians, HVAC specialists, or garbage men. Computer science and engineering has inherent research component in it. We do our little own discoveries on daily basis while researching annoying bugs. For research there is much value in diversity of approaches. That't why some people pity severe lack of women in computer science. They believe that this could increase diversity of approaches and give us better solutions. Also there is no lack of electricians today but the need for computer scientists is exploding. During the war electricians and other factory workers were needed so there was push for women to take these professions. We don't have a war now but soon development of our civilization might be capped by lack of competent people to program our machines. That would be severe waste of time.

bct 17y ago

> This whole premise is stupid. We don't seem to have a problem with the lack of female linesmen, plumbers, construction workers, electricians, HVAC specialists, or garbage men. So why do you think that is? It sounds to me like evidence that women don't want those jobs! Which would imply that the jobs that people make a fuss about - e.g. programming and other tech jobs - are ones that a significant portion of women do want, and feel discouraged from.

elptacek 17y ago

Here's an experiment: start shaving your legs, plucking your eyebrows and having other bits waxed. I suspect that the amount of time required to keep one's appendages hairless would fill up some of that delta of hours worked. Then there's matching shoes to outfits, struggling into hose... ...I'm joking, and yet I'm not. grin

vog 17y ago
According to the classic article on that topic, it's exactly that kind of comments that contributes most to the discomfort of women in male-dominated groups: Sexist jokes are the number one way to drive women out of any group, and they are more common than many people realize. [...] Sometimes he tells me that it's okay to make a sexist joke if it's true, or it's funny (funny to whom?). What some people fail to realize is that jokes about gender of any sort almost always make fun of women, and will make most women angry, regardless of the context. It doesn't help to first make a sexist joke about men and then one about women. [...] your comments and jokes are driving women away. If that's not what you want, then don't make sexist jokes. If you're not sure if your joke is sexist, find something else to say. [http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/] (The title suggests that the article is just about LUGs, but it's really about the whole computer-tech scene.)

Dove 17y ago

Thank you for saying this. As a woman in tech, I've never experienced any hostility, any implication I didn't belong. I was never intimidated by male professors and TAs and lab partners; I saw them as programmers first. I never lacked for role models and heroes because it never occurred to me to ask that they be women. I never had any requirements beyond 'great hacker'. What I did find frustrating was the obsequious encouragement to stay. Extra scholarships I qualified for. My pick of lab partners. Professional societies just for women. The expectation that enrolling or hiring me would make some bean counter somewhere very happy. It's frustrating because it leaves me wondering if I'm held to a lower standard. Would my work actually stand out if I weren't a woman? When people tell me I've done a good job, are they silently adding, ". . . for a girl" ? Am I going to get upvotes on this comment just for being a woman, and not necessarily for being insightful? Perhaps the most frustrating aspect of people trying to artificially import women into the field is that sometimes they succeed. There were always women who were there because they got extra attention and extra help. Women who wouldn't shut up about what it was like to be a developer and -- holy crap -- a woman! At the same time! It was, like, worth running a whole blog about! The more women like that there were running around, the harder I felt I had to work to differentiate myself from them. I don't want to be "second rate, but that's okay because thank God somebody got a woman to stick around." I don't want to be, "wow, that's awesome work and--HEY IT'S A WOMAN, THIS IS FRONT PAGE MATERIAL!" I want to do first rate work and be criticized and compete and fight obscurity right along with everyone else. There aren't many women in tech. And there are even fewer of them in the really upper echelons. Then again, that's true in general. Whatever the reason, women in tough, competitive fields are rare, and the tougher and more competitive and more elite it gets, the rarer they are. I don't know why that is. Frankly, I don't care. It's not a justification for hamstringing the women who are the exceptions--and no one throughout history has ever said it is. But treating it like a problem just makes problems for people like me. Seriously, just let people do what they want to do and be who they want to be and stop worrying about why they choose what they choose.

vog 17y ago
> As a woman in tech, I've never experienced any hostility, any implication I didn't belong. I was never intimidated by male professors and TAs and lab partners It is great to hear that this is possible. In my area, the only way to ensure that women aren't discriminated in a group is to 1) make the group consist of at least 30%-40% women, or 2) have a women as an authority in the group (presenter, boss, teacher, ...) Sometimes, even that doesn't help. So although you suffer from positive discrimination, I think it is really great that you don't suffer from any negative dicrimination. > Whatever the reason, women in tough, competitive fields are rare, and the tougher and more competitive and more elite it gets, the rarer they are. I don't know why that is. Frankly, I don't care. If I understand you correctly, you don't care because you are part of the elite. But what about the women who are just "average" in tech?

tjgabbour 17y ago

I do have a problem with going to say a programming conference and seeing that all the programmers are men, while those serving them (like receptionists and waitresses) are women. And generally these women are managed by men...