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The law in this case is a hammer looking for a nail. If a short term rental is violating noise ordinances, fine it or shut it down, don't shut down every short

The law in this case is a hammer looking for a nail. If a short term rental is violating noise ordinances, fine it or shut it down, don't shut down every short term rental just because you fear it. The biggest thing I have learned from running a couple short term rental listings is that people are basically good. I hosted 68 guests in the last three weeks and every last one of them was nice and respectful and quiet. Anti short term rental sentiment is based on paranoid hysteria. I don't live in NYC, but in a neighboring state and bought a three family house with the express intent of living in one unit and renting the others as vacation rentals. The prospect of nosy, controlling moral scolds shutting down my American dream, is extremely maddening. ' The only externality to my house is that there are cars in the drive way with license plates from a variety of states. Fear of new cars in the driveway should not trump my rights as owner and tax payer on this land. Luckily in public meetings our town planners have declared their need for vacation rentals. The housing market is weak here and if the town were to shut down vacation rentals, it would put even more pressure on an already cold real estate market.

baybal3 10y ago
The idea that people are free to make business and do what they want with their own property is alien to the state of New York. By far, it is the most commie ridden state, even ahead of California. The state should be fought over laws like this, not negotiated with.
- GavinMcG 10y ago
  Are you throwing "commie" in there as shorthand for something that you think we'll all agree is abhorrent? 'Cause I'm really totally fine with the community getting together and dictating certain things to each other. That's the level we're on here – not state control of the means of production for the benefit of the people collectively.
  - hash-set 10y ago
    Yes, because somehow the basic facets of private commerce that worked for centuries are now somehow dangerous and government has to interject itself into everyone's business. Oh yeah, that's the ACTUAL definition of collectivism!
    - threeseed 10y ago
      Not sure what you are talking about. Governments have been regulating the activities in your home for centuries. And it's common place in every country.
  - willholloway 10y ago
    The state of New York has lost two Congressional representatives due to its population fleeing for more favorable areas. New York State is not doing well, and its combination of nanny state, local government corruption and high taxes is not winning in the market place of governments. If it wasn't for the inheritance of NYC being the capital of the world, NY state would be in seriously dire straits.
- threeseed 10y ago
  And if having transient people churning through your house didn't affect your neighbours then there wouldn't be a problem. But it does. There are numerous incidents of parties run amok, drug use, prostitution etc.
hash-set 10y ago
Yeah, well, I feel pretty jaded about what has been done to gun owners in NY--they had that SAFE act shoved straight up their asses in the middle of the night. I'm sure NYC residents didn't complain, though--the thing they don't get is that too much government is damaging to all of us and it's not an either/or kind of situation. IT'S ALL BAD. So cry me a river. I hope they get everything they deserve good and hard. Maybe they'll reconsider this endless meddling in their lives.
- douche 10y ago
  New York is kind of fucked as a state. The City has enough voters to completely nullify the rest of the state, so that what is sane to the rural, upstate New Yorkers, is droned out by the paranoia of the city people.
the-dude 10y ago
How are you able to host 68 guest in 3 weeks? My gut feeling this is not 'sharing' your appartement. Edit: parent has editted comment after my reply.
- willholloway 10y ago
  I bought a three family house. I live on the second floor and rent out the first and third floor units on the web. It is sharing my house. When I first bought the house I inherited a 12 month lease tenant from the previous owner. When I had that tentant, I didn't feel like this was my house. I couldnt go on the first floor, I had to walk on eggshells around the tenant and her kid. Now this is my house! My house! I own it, and I let in guests that I screen through airbnb and other sites. They come for a few days, pay 300-600, and I make the beds and greet them and its really nice and I have met some cool people. So in my case we are talking about turning a three family house into a basically single family house with some guests. That is a use case I dont think is being represented in this conversation.
  - lsh123 10y ago
    So basically, you are running a small-scale hotel and you live in it. I think you are competing with other hotels and you should follow the same rules as the other hotels do. If you don't like the rules, then you should change them but it should be the same rules for everyone.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - willholloway 10y ago
      I do follow the same rules, I comply with all fire codes, carry proper insurance coverage and pay 15% hotel tax on every booking.
      - mejari 10y ago
        I don't believe those are all the rules that hotels have to abide by
SippinLean 10y ago
To answer your anecdotal evidence with my own: my neighbor's apartment is an AirBnb, and is often very noisy and over-capacity. I feel less safe in my building because I'm no longer on a personal basis with all my neighbors. I use AirBnb as well, but the negatives are more than "paranoid hysteria".
- mancerayder 10y ago
  Folks, not all apartment units in New York City are big, crowded buildings with long hallways. You're forgetting the Multiple Dwelling Law affects multi-family houses, many of which (especially in Brooklyn and Queens) were single families build in the 1890's that were converted to 2, 3 or 4 family structures in the 1930's. I'm not ideologically against regulation, don't get me wrong, but I DO recognize that sometimes 'big hammers' affect big and small scale landlords equally, and that's not fair. And quite frankly if you're disrupted because I'm AirBNBing one of my units, just come down the stairs and knock on my door and we can talk about it. Joking aside - New York housing laws need to do a better job, whether it's housing code, fines, or anti AirBNB laws, of distinguishing between big and small scale operations.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    Feel free to do short term rentals, but get a zoning variance and meet the same standards as hotels and real BNBs. You can't make subjective judgements about small vs big landlords because frankly, lots of landlords, big or small are scum and can only be managed with a stick. I don't need to knock on your door -- if you want to be a hotelier, buy a hotel.
    - willholloway 10y ago
      Here is the thing, I have read the entire zoning code for my town. My town has a strict definition of what a hotel is, and what I am doing does not meet it. A hotel has shared facilities, a check in desk and some other things. It also does not meet the definition of a bed and breakfast, which by definition serves food. So by the zoning of my town I am not operating a hotel or a bed and breakfast.
rsync 10y ago
"The biggest thing I have learned from running a couple short term rental listings is that people are basically good." I think you're in a honeymoon period where everything is working great because of thoughtful, well-intentioned early adopters on both sides (the providers and the guests). I have done a lot of airbnb all over the world - and I love it - but I, as a user and the hosts are obviously very literate, technically adept, relatively wealthy people. It's not surprising that it all works out really nicely - and it does. That can't last. People will find way to game both airbnb and the users of airbnb and it will be a race of con artists and malcontents all the way to whatever cesspool it is that form the back-story of every law we have on the books. Every law that governs a hotel or a taxi or a restaurant is on the books because some asshole got someone killed (or robbed them blind). Enjoy it while it lasts!
ap22213 10y ago
That's pretty harsh and a little bit rude, honestly. When someone buys a house or condo or whatever, they usually don't expect it to be turned in a hotel / motel. Most people don't like when their neighborhoods turn into rental units either, but at least in that case they have some time to react.
forgetsusername 10y ago
>If a short term rental is violating noise ordinances, fine it or shut it down You need boots on the street, investigating complaints. Who is going to pay for that enforcement?
- Tempest1981 10y ago
  Not sure why this was downvoted. In economics, it's called negative externalities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality
tmat 10y ago
Intentionally impeding progress to protect profits of archaic industries.. awesome.
- Tempest1981 10y ago
  Not disagreeing, but please explain how the hotel industry is archaic, and how you want them to change. (Or do you mean insufficiently competitive?)
- hilop 10y ago
  Intentionally impeding disruptions to protect quality of life... awesome.
Tempest1981 10y ago
> If a short term rental is violating noise ordinances, fine it or shut it down, But who's shoulders this extra enforcement cost? Not AirBNB, right?

baybal3 10y ago

The idea that people are free to make business and do what they want with their own property is alien to the state of New York. By far, it is the most commie ridden state, even ahead of California. The state should be fought over laws like this, not negotiated with.

GavinMcG 10y ago
Are you throwing "commie" in there as shorthand for something that you think we'll all agree is abhorrent? 'Cause I'm really totally fine with the community getting together and dictating certain things to each other. That's the level we're on here – not state control of the means of production for the benefit of the people collectively.
- hash-set 10y ago
  Yes, because somehow the basic facets of private commerce that worked for centuries are now somehow dangerous and government has to interject itself into everyone's business. Oh yeah, that's the ACTUAL definition of collectivism!
  - threeseed 10y ago
    Not sure what you are talking about. Governments have been regulating the activities in your home for centuries. And it's common place in every country.
- willholloway 10y ago
  The state of New York has lost two Congressional representatives due to its population fleeing for more favorable areas. New York State is not doing well, and its combination of nanny state, local government corruption and high taxes is not winning in the market place of governments. If it wasn't for the inheritance of NYC being the capital of the world, NY state would be in seriously dire straits.
threeseed 10y ago
And if having transient people churning through your house didn't affect your neighbours then there wouldn't be a problem. But it does. There are numerous incidents of parties run amok, drug use, prostitution etc.

hash-set 10y ago

Yeah, well, I feel pretty jaded about what has been done to gun owners in NY--they had that SAFE act shoved straight up their asses in the middle of the night. I'm sure NYC residents didn't complain, though--the thing they don't get is that too much government is damaging to all of us and it's not an either/or kind of situation. IT'S ALL BAD. So cry me a river. I hope they get everything they deserve good and hard. Maybe they'll reconsider this endless meddling in their lives.

douche 10y ago
New York is kind of fucked as a state. The City has enough voters to completely nullify the rest of the state, so that what is sane to the rural, upstate New Yorkers, is droned out by the paranoia of the city people.

the-dude 10y ago

How are you able to host 68 guest in 3 weeks? My gut feeling this is not 'sharing' your appartement. Edit: parent has editted comment after my reply.

willholloway 10y ago
I bought a three family house. I live on the second floor and rent out the first and third floor units on the web. It is sharing my house. When I first bought the house I inherited a 12 month lease tenant from the previous owner. When I had that tentant, I didn't feel like this was my house. I couldnt go on the first floor, I had to walk on eggshells around the tenant and her kid. Now this is my house! My house! I own it, and I let in guests that I screen through airbnb and other sites. They come for a few days, pay 300-600, and I make the beds and greet them and its really nice and I have met some cool people. So in my case we are talking about turning a three family house into a basically single family house with some guests. That is a use case I dont think is being represented in this conversation.
- lsh123 10y ago
  So basically, you are running a small-scale hotel and you live in it. I think you are competing with other hotels and you should follow the same rules as the other hotels do. If you don't like the rules, then you should change them but it should be the same rules for everyone.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - willholloway 10y ago
    I do follow the same rules, I comply with all fire codes, carry proper insurance coverage and pay 15% hotel tax on every booking.
    - mejari 10y ago
      I don't believe those are all the rules that hotels have to abide by

SippinLean 10y ago

To answer your anecdotal evidence with my own: my neighbor's apartment is an AirBnb, and is often very noisy and over-capacity. I feel less safe in my building because I'm no longer on a personal basis with all my neighbors. I use AirBnb as well, but the negatives are more than "paranoid hysteria".

mancerayder 10y ago
Folks, not all apartment units in New York City are big, crowded buildings with long hallways. You're forgetting the Multiple Dwelling Law affects multi-family houses, many of which (especially in Brooklyn and Queens) were single families build in the 1890's that were converted to 2, 3 or 4 family structures in the 1930's. I'm not ideologically against regulation, don't get me wrong, but I DO recognize that sometimes 'big hammers' affect big and small scale landlords equally, and that's not fair. And quite frankly if you're disrupted because I'm AirBNBing one of my units, just come down the stairs and knock on my door and we can talk about it. Joking aside - New York housing laws need to do a better job, whether it's housing code, fines, or anti AirBNB laws, of distinguishing between big and small scale operations.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Feel free to do short term rentals, but get a zoning variance and meet the same standards as hotels and real BNBs. You can't make subjective judgements about small vs big landlords because frankly, lots of landlords, big or small are scum and can only be managed with a stick. I don't need to knock on your door -- if you want to be a hotelier, buy a hotel.
  - willholloway 10y ago
    Here is the thing, I have read the entire zoning code for my town. My town has a strict definition of what a hotel is, and what I am doing does not meet it. A hotel has shared facilities, a check in desk and some other things. It also does not meet the definition of a bed and breakfast, which by definition serves food. So by the zoning of my town I am not operating a hotel or a bed and breakfast.

rsync 10y ago

"The biggest thing I have learned from running a couple short term rental listings is that people are basically good." I think you're in a honeymoon period where everything is working great because of thoughtful, well-intentioned early adopters on both sides (the providers and the guests). I have done a lot of airbnb all over the world - and I love it - but I, as a user and the hosts are obviously very literate, technically adept, relatively wealthy people. It's not surprising that it all works out really nicely - and it does. That can't last. People will find way to game both airbnb and the users of airbnb and it will be a race of con artists and malcontents all the way to whatever cesspool it is that form the back-story of every law we have on the books. Every law that governs a hotel or a taxi or a restaurant is on the books because some asshole got someone killed (or robbed them blind). Enjoy it while it lasts!

ap22213 10y ago

That's pretty harsh and a little bit rude, honestly. When someone buys a house or condo or whatever, they usually don't expect it to be turned in a hotel / motel. Most people don't like when their neighborhoods turn into rental units either, but at least in that case they have some time to react.

forgetsusername 10y ago

>If a short term rental is violating noise ordinances, fine it or shut it down You need boots on the street, investigating complaints. Who is going to pay for that enforcement?

Tempest1981 10y ago
Not sure why this was downvoted. In economics, it's called negative externalities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality

tmat 10y ago

Intentionally impeding progress to protect profits of archaic industries.. awesome.

Tempest1981 10y ago
Not disagreeing, but please explain how the hotel industry is archaic, and how you want them to change. (Or do you mean insufficiently competitive?)
hilop 10y ago
Intentionally impeding disruptions to protect quality of life... awesome.

Tempest1981 10y ago

> If a short term rental is violating noise ordinances, fine it or shut it down, But who's shoulders this extra enforcement cost? Not AirBNB, right?