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One of the biggest beefs I have with how Americans deal with the NSA is that they're cool with them spying on EU citizens. As long as its not domestic, you guys

One of the biggest beefs I have with how Americans deal with the NSA is that they're cool with them spying on EU citizens. As long as its not domestic, you guys are cool with it. Its as if when you are not an American, you have no right to basic human rights like privacy according to Americans. Add to that they even did stuff like tap Merkels' phone.. spying on your allies is a serious faux-pas and wtf all rolled into one.

finid 10y ago
When you believe that your exceptional, that you're Gods most special creation, the privacy and rights of others is not something you lose sleep over.
wbl 10y ago
In Air France first class there are microphones in the seats, to record the conversations of any businessmen travelling to France.
tptacek 10y ago
One of the biggest beefs I have with Europeans who take issue at NSA spying on the EU is the misconception they have that their own spy agencies aren't doing the same thing to everyone else: us, Russia, China, and other states in the EU. More annoying about this argument though is the fact that the leaders of the most powerful EU states, regardless of what they may say to their own citizens, demonstrably benefit from and invite NSA spying. The German NBD, for instance, spied on Austria in collaboration with the NSA --- got caught doing so just last year. It's easy for EU SIGINT agencies to get away with this stuff, because they can launder the unpopular spying they want to do through NSA in private while "blaming" them in public. If we want to have a world without spying, we should be honest about it. More honest than the conversation is today. But we should also be careful what we wish for. The prevailing sentiment on HN is that NSA is more or less spying on behalf of Disney's copyright enforcement corps and the Moral Majority. But a lot of the reason we conduct foreign surveillance is to avoid large scale armed conflict. To allow us to head conflict off surgically, and to prevent intractable problems (for instance: unchecked proliferation of nuclear arms to countries that we'd have to invade to keep them from deploying). I have real, bigly problems with NSA and think it needs drastic reform and completely restructured oversight. But I'm not in the (very large) faction that believes surveillance to be intrinsically evil. I personally feel fortunate to have made it out of the 1970s without disintegrating in a nuclear barrage. That threat is not gone; it is far more realistic than evil AI.
- harry8 10y ago
  Do you think if any european ally of the US was caught out spying on Barack O.'s phone that the head of that agency would keep their job? What about if they were caught out because they can't control contractors? Who has been fired at the NSA after a series of total WTFs? Regardless if you think they do god's work or are in league with the devil, incompetence giving america a black eye ought to be something that has consequences. Apparently it doesn't.
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  "One of the biggest beefs I have with Europeans who take issue at NSA spying on the EU is the misconception they have that their own spy agencies aren't doing the same thing to everyone else: us, Russia, China, and other states in the EU." Same thing I kept telling them on Schneier's blog, etc. They sure aren't building those spy buildings as art projects. The worst part is that info on whose involved in spying agreements, even whose in "no-spy" agreements, is so public we have much of it in one Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes Then there's the espionage documents talking all the cases where foreign countries were spying on us. Then there's the Snowden files showing that basically every European country was partnered with NSA spying on who knows who (probably Europeans) with exceptions being Iceland, Switzerland, and maybe one other country (don't recall). A teacher of mine used to say that people often point a finger at others but are pointing at least three back at themselves as they do so. Europeans are doing it with both hands.
- smokeyj 10y ago
  > The prevailing sentiment on HN is that NSA is more or less spying on behalf of Disney's copyright enforcement corps and the Moral Majority. I'd leave out the moral part. It's too easy to spy on foreign execs, act on insider knowledge and fund political agendas. That's what I would do which is why I'm sure it happens. Accountability determines how rational people act. When we give total secrecy and no accountability to a portion of the population they tend to act.. a certain way. > But I'm not in the (very large) faction that believes surveillance to be intrinsically evil No one here would ever accuse you of such. But the phrasing lacks specificity. This isn't surveillance by the 7-11 Inc. where daily slurpies are purchased but rather surveillance by a multi trillion-dollar agency with a mandate outside of the public's knowledge or approval. There isn't anything a bit.. spooky about that?

finid 10y ago

When you believe that your exceptional, that you're Gods most special creation, the privacy and rights of others is not something you lose sleep over.

wbl 10y ago

In Air France first class there are microphones in the seats, to record the conversations of any businessmen travelling to France.

tptacek 10y ago

One of the biggest beefs I have with Europeans who take issue at NSA spying on the EU is the misconception they have that their own spy agencies aren't doing the same thing to everyone else: us, Russia, China, and other states in the EU. More annoying about this argument though is the fact that the leaders of the most powerful EU states, regardless of what they may say to their own citizens, demonstrably benefit from and invite NSA spying. The German NBD, for instance, spied on Austria in collaboration with the NSA --- got caught doing so just last year. It's easy for EU SIGINT agencies to get away with this stuff, because they can launder the unpopular spying they want to do through NSA in private while "blaming" them in public. If we want to have a world without spying, we should be honest about it. More honest than the conversation is today. But we should also be careful what we wish for. The prevailing sentiment on HN is that NSA is more or less spying on behalf of Disney's copyright enforcement corps and the Moral Majority. But a lot of the reason we conduct foreign surveillance is to avoid large scale armed conflict. To allow us to head conflict off surgically, and to prevent intractable problems (for instance: unchecked proliferation of nuclear arms to countries that we'd have to invade to keep them from deploying). I have real, bigly problems with NSA and think it needs drastic reform and completely restructured oversight. But I'm not in the (very large) faction that believes surveillance to be intrinsically evil. I personally feel fortunate to have made it out of the 1970s without disintegrating in a nuclear barrage. That threat is not gone; it is far more realistic than evil AI.

harry8 10y ago
Do you think if any european ally of the US was caught out spying on Barack O.'s phone that the head of that agency would keep their job? What about if they were caught out because they can't control contractors? Who has been fired at the NSA after a series of total WTFs? Regardless if you think they do god's work or are in league with the devil, incompetence giving america a black eye ought to be something that has consequences. Apparently it doesn't.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
"One of the biggest beefs I have with Europeans who take issue at NSA spying on the EU is the misconception they have that their own spy agencies aren't doing the same thing to everyone else: us, Russia, China, and other states in the EU." Same thing I kept telling them on Schneier's blog, etc. They sure aren't building those spy buildings as art projects. The worst part is that info on whose involved in spying agreements, even whose in "no-spy" agreements, is so public we have much of it in one Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes Then there's the espionage documents talking all the cases where foreign countries were spying on us. Then there's the Snowden files showing that basically every European country was partnered with NSA spying on who knows who (probably Europeans) with exceptions being Iceland, Switzerland, and maybe one other country (don't recall). A teacher of mine used to say that people often point a finger at others but are pointing at least three back at themselves as they do so. Europeans are doing it with both hands.
smokeyj 10y ago
> The prevailing sentiment on HN is that NSA is more or less spying on behalf of Disney's copyright enforcement corps and the Moral Majority. I'd leave out the moral part. It's too easy to spy on foreign execs, act on insider knowledge and fund political agendas. That's what I would do which is why I'm sure it happens. Accountability determines how rational people act. When we give total secrecy and no accountability to a portion of the population they tend to act.. a certain way. > But I'm not in the (very large) faction that believes surveillance to be intrinsically evil No one here would ever accuse you of such. But the phrasing lacks specificity. This isn't surveillance by the 7-11 Inc. where daily slurpies are purchased but rather surveillance by a multi trillion-dollar agency with a mandate outside of the public's knowledge or approval. There isn't anything a bit.. spooky about that?