3 ms·

It's our responsibility to choose and support products that respect our rights and empower us. Vote with your feet.

by RUG3Y 10y ago

hood_syntax 10y ago
I agree with this, and I try to follow it as much as possible, but it can be hard to find companies that produce those products.
fucking_tragedy 10y ago
Voting with your feet/dollar is hardly an option when everyone else in town is doing the same thing. Voting for representatives that will enact legislation to change the situation is still an option.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  Voting for representatives that will enact legislation to change the situation is still an option. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is true either. I am probably more politically active than most, in that I will actually contact my representatives about issues I consider important. My representatives have, in some cases, been more tech savvy than most as well. And yet still there is little real change in technical fields, because the overwhelming majority of politicians are not aware of the real issues and implications and the briefings they get come from the very big businesses who stand to gain the most from additional laws and variations on the theme of regulatory capture. If the only people running in an election are all like that, who do you vote for if you want something else? I see a few plausible ways to improve the situation. Firstly, voting with our wallets works if and when there are better alternatives available, and sadly is often far more flexible, far more effective and far more quickly effective than voting in an election. Secondly, if we can raise the issues to a high enough level of public awareness that they start to become politically relevant, then the politicians will start caring enough to get better briefings and explore more points of view. The danger with this one is that with technology issues, people often only start to care when something significant and bad happens to them personally or to someone close to them, and it may be far too late to fix the underlying problems by then. One of the possibilities I find most interesting is that in the current political climate in the West, the established political classes are deeply unpopular, and in some cases rival movements are picking up serious interest even if they're a little bit crazy just because they're not the old guard. This also leaves the door open for much more savvy people to enter politics who might never have considered doing so before, and if even a few people who care deeply about some of these issues manage to get into power within national governments, we could start to see some real change. And of course, there is always the option that many people will take in real life: ignore the restrictions/laws and get away with it. I don't like this one at all personally, because it means those who work within the system are always losing out to those willing to break the rules, but there's no point denying the reality. For example, what are Tesla really going to do to someone who violates this rule? If they start routinely breaking the cars somehow then they're going to face an existential threat to their brand. If they sue the customer, there's a fair chance that they will lose after their terms are found to violate consumer protection laws in enough jurisdictions to kill their whole strategy. The sad thing is that the final option is often "good enough" for enough people that we don't build enough momentum to push for the other better ones, so the law-abiding but better-wanting citizens lose out as usual.
elros 10y ago
Sure, granted, and I'm sure GP agrees. However this major subtlety between licensed and purchased goods could not be clear to the layman, so it's also arguably our responsibility as technical types to elucidate the difference.
snowwrestler 10y ago
I don't think voting with dollars will do much on its own, for two reasons. 1) Goods powered by software are frequently much better than goods without. I mean, compare a phone with software vs. without. Compare a car with software vs. without. Which one would you rather have? 2) Entire industries are converting to software-based capability. Speaking of phones and cars, try to find a new one these days without software in it. I think we have to adjust, as a society.
- tremon 10y ago
  I think we have to adjust, as a society. Or, we start demanding that software, when purchased as part of a physical device, does not reduce the rights customers have to their physical device.
- jmcdiesel 10y ago
  "Speaking of phones and cars, try to find a new one these days without software in it." Im not saying its hard to find them yet, but at this point 2 out of 3 toasters at my local grocery store have software in them - simple software, not connected, but software nonetheless, in a device that needs none, a device that has worked mechanically for decades with no issue... Everything is going that way though, becuase its easier to design something with software rather than figuring out how to make a piece of machinery make a decision mechanically - it easier to just use sensors and software...
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  It's not a matter of whether there is software or not. If it were you'd be going back to the 80s to find anything before fuel injection and third party chips. Now we can't modify playstations etc - because of IP laws not software. It's an issue of patent, copyright and rent seeking. We are so far down that rabbit hole globally, and governments have given far too much for it to be recoverable. Who do I vote for to get wholesale scaling back of IP law? What do I do knowing there's unlikely to be candidates promoting this stance?
- takeda 10y ago
  This is whole reason GNU and Open Source was started. When you have source, you are getting back control of your hardware.
zeveb 10y ago
Well, voting with my feet is easy in the case of Tesla (I think that they are poorly designed and don't feel a need for an automotive status signal at this time), but what about when there are no options, or when the options are so much worse that they're not really options at all (e.g. a car without air conditioning)?
jomamaxx 10y ago
"It's our responsibility to choose and support products that respect our rights and empower us. Vote with your feet." I think you mean 'wallet'. But it's hard for consumers when as individuals they have little choice. Mobile OSs come in 2 flavours. Wherein there is lack of competition, it's nary impossible for consumers to 'vote with their wallets' because there's few other places they can go. I think this might call for some intelligent regulation.
toomuchtodo 10y ago
I'm voting that I don't mind, and buying at least two Model 3s when they're in full production. I support Tesla's decision.
- FireBeyond 10y ago
  Which is it, that you "don't mind", or that you "support" it? If you support it, why? Otherwise, your comment adds no more substance than me saying "I'm against this." and offering no further explanation.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    I support Tesla restricting the benefits to their own ridesharing network. Why should Uber or Lyft profit by putting Tesla software into service? I don't just mind, I fully support it, and depending on the breakeven point, I'll buy several Teslas and put them in service as long as there's just a tiny bit of profit after Tesla's cut.
    - FireBeyond 10y ago
      Software that vehicle purchasers have licensed for use in a vehicle that they ostensibly own. This is just the Apple iOS walled garden again. "If you want to make money using our car, we get a cut".
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        A license you agreed to at purchase. Don't like it, don't buy it. And I like my iPhone walled garden just fine.
        EdHominem 10y ago
        A license forced on me by abusing laws my taxes pay for. No thanks. I'll "sign" the nonsense but I won't be bound by it. When our government catches up with the idea that if it looks like a purchase, it is a purchase, we'll re-evaluate that decision.

It's our responsibility to choose and support products that respect our rights and empower us. Vote with your feet.

by RUG3Y 10y ago

It's our responsibility to choose and support products that respect our rights and empower us. Vote with your feet.

I agree with this, and I try to follow it as much as possible, but it can be hard to find companies that produce those products.

fucking_tragedy 10y ago

Voting with your feet/dollar is hardly an option when everyone else in town is doing the same thing. Voting for representatives that will enact legislation to change the situation is still an option.

Silhouette 10y ago
Voting for representatives that will enact legislation to change the situation is still an option. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is true either. I am probably more politically active than most, in that I will actually contact my representatives about issues I consider important. My representatives have, in some cases, been more tech savvy than most as well. And yet still there is little real change in technical fields, because the overwhelming majority of politicians are not aware of the real issues and implications and the briefings they get come from the very big businesses who stand to gain the most from additional laws and variations on the theme of regulatory capture. If the only people running in an election are all like that, who do you vote for if you want something else? I see a few plausible ways to improve the situation. Firstly, voting with our wallets works if and when there are better alternatives available, and sadly is often far more flexible, far more effective and far more quickly effective than voting in an election. Secondly, if we can raise the issues to a high enough level of public awareness that they start to become politically relevant, then the politicians will start caring enough to get better briefings and explore more points of view. The danger with this one is that with technology issues, people often only start to care when something significant and bad happens to them personally or to someone close to them, and it may be far too late to fix the underlying problems by then. One of the possibilities I find most interesting is that in the current political climate in the West, the established political classes are deeply unpopular, and in some cases rival movements are picking up serious interest even if they're a little bit crazy just because they're not the old guard. This also leaves the door open for much more savvy people to enter politics who might never have considered doing so before, and if even a few people who care deeply about some of these issues manage to get into power within national governments, we could start to see some real change. And of course, there is always the option that many people will take in real life: ignore the restrictions/laws and get away with it. I don't like this one at all personally, because it means those who work within the system are always losing out to those willing to break the rules, but there's no point denying the reality. For example, what are Tesla really going to do to someone who violates this rule? If they start routinely breaking the cars somehow then they're going to face an existential threat to their brand. If they sue the customer, there's a fair chance that they will lose after their terms are found to violate consumer protection laws in enough jurisdictions to kill their whole strategy. The sad thing is that the final option is often "good enough" for enough people that we don't build enough momentum to push for the other better ones, so the law-abiding but better-wanting citizens lose out as usual.

elros 10y ago

Sure, granted, and I'm sure GP agrees. However this major subtlety between licensed and purchased goods could not be clear to the layman, so it's also arguably our responsibility as technical types to elucidate the difference.

snowwrestler 10y ago

I don't think voting with dollars will do much on its own, for two reasons. 1) Goods powered by software are frequently much better than goods without. I mean, compare a phone with software vs. without. Compare a car with software vs. without. Which one would you rather have? 2) Entire industries are converting to software-based capability. Speaking of phones and cars, try to find a new one these days without software in it. I think we have to adjust, as a society.

tremon 10y ago
I think we have to adjust, as a society. Or, we start demanding that software, when purchased as part of a physical device, does not reduce the rights customers have to their physical device.
jmcdiesel 10y ago
"Speaking of phones and cars, try to find a new one these days without software in it." Im not saying its hard to find them yet, but at this point 2 out of 3 toasters at my local grocery store have software in them - simple software, not connected, but software nonetheless, in a device that needs none, a device that has worked mechanically for decades with no issue... Everything is going that way though, becuase its easier to design something with software rather than figuring out how to make a piece of machinery make a decision mechanically - it easier to just use sensors and software...
anexprogrammer 10y ago
It's not a matter of whether there is software or not. If it were you'd be going back to the 80s to find anything before fuel injection and third party chips. Now we can't modify playstations etc - because of IP laws not software. It's an issue of patent, copyright and rent seeking. We are so far down that rabbit hole globally, and governments have given far too much for it to be recoverable. Who do I vote for to get wholesale scaling back of IP law? What do I do knowing there's unlikely to be candidates promoting this stance?
takeda 10y ago
This is whole reason GNU and Open Source was started. When you have source, you are getting back control of your hardware.

zeveb 10y ago

Well, voting with my feet is easy in the case of Tesla (I think that they are poorly designed and don't feel a need for an automotive status signal at this time), but what about when there are no options, or when the options are so much worse that they're not really options at all (e.g. a car without air conditioning)?

jomamaxx 10y ago

"It's our responsibility to choose and support products that respect our rights and empower us. Vote with your feet." I think you mean 'wallet'. But it's hard for consumers when as individuals they have little choice. Mobile OSs come in 2 flavours. Wherein there is lack of competition, it's nary impossible for consumers to 'vote with their wallets' because there's few other places they can go. I think this might call for some intelligent regulation.

toomuchtodo 10y ago

I'm voting that I don't mind, and buying at least two Model 3s when they're in full production. I support Tesla's decision.

FireBeyond 10y ago
Which is it, that you "don't mind", or that you "support" it? If you support it, why? Otherwise, your comment adds no more substance than me saying "I'm against this." and offering no further explanation.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  I support Tesla restricting the benefits to their own ridesharing network. Why should Uber or Lyft profit by putting Tesla software into service? I don't just mind, I fully support it, and depending on the breakeven point, I'll buy several Teslas and put them in service as long as there's just a tiny bit of profit after Tesla's cut.
  - FireBeyond 10y ago
    Software that vehicle purchasers have licensed for use in a vehicle that they ostensibly own. This is just the Apple iOS walled garden again. "If you want to make money using our car, we get a cut".
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      A license you agreed to at purchase. Don't like it, don't buy it. And I like my iPhone walled garden just fine.
      - EdHominem 10y ago
        A license forced on me by abusing laws my taxes pay for. No thanks. I'll "sign" the nonsense but I won't be bound by it. When our government catches up with the idea that if it looks like a purchase, it is a purchase, we'll re-evaluate that decision.