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As the GM of a amateur youth team (one of the parents has to do this role here), I've watched the coaches trying in despair to make players unlearn things that

As the GM of a amateur youth team (one of the parents has to do this role here), I've watched the coaches trying in despair to make players unlearn things that the boys picked up from playing the FIFA series games. Mostly it's about tricks that are much more prominent in the video game than they ever can be in real life, because the gameplay is not entirely realistic. The gameplay on screen rewards visual stunts that are much less effective in real play. The movement of ball and players doesn't actually have to be like it is in reality, because it is a video game. It's adjusted for visual appeal. Where this is most often seen is passing the ball up in the air; this enables the video game to show amazing slow-motion captures of skill, but on a real football field such gameplay is not effective; in fact it is stupid. In video gameplay, the characters make the ball traverse in a slo-mo arch, all the other moving objects maybe slow down, and the player receiving this pass then picks it up with amazing skill. In real gameplay, it is better to keep the ball on the ground and pass quickly. A ball flying in an arch in the air travels more slowly, so the opponent has time to come close end press the ball; a flying ball is more difficult to control so it is slower to receive and pass on; making an accurate pass with a ball up in the air is much more difficult than controlling a ball rolling on the ground. Thus, playing like FIFA just means you lose the ball to the opponents and you lose the game. Also, things like a bicycle kick tend to succeed in a video game, but in real life they are exceedingly difficult to score with.

gspetr 10y ago
You got to admit though that the bicycle kick is spectacular to watch when it does succeed, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1odrzGKMzE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1odrzGKMzE
- caseysoftware 10y ago
  Thanks for the clip. That was great. You can see everyone briefly relax when the keeper deflects the initial shot. They thought the pressure was gone.. and then BOOM.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Of course, yes, but about nine times out of ten a better attempt would have been made with a simple header or by passing the ball downwards. Football is a team sport. It's great to be able to score from a difficult position. But it's much better to keep your eyes open, know where your teammates are, and pass to someone who is in a better position.
  - thom 10y ago
    Which, nine times out of then, means not crossing the ball in the first place. Although now I look upthread, that's pretty much what you're advocating.
- supercanuck 10y ago
  and ridiculously hilarious when they do not, even for professionals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA-AEEPol_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA-AEEPol_8
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    I enjoy any technique that looks that absurd when it goes slightly wrong. Flying headers are particularly beautiful - you just get a player sailing across the field into nothing in particular.
- sschueller 10y ago
  Yes, https://youtu.be/YJX0an_d3wo https://youtu.be/YJX0an_d3wo
paulcole 10y ago
>Thus, playing like FIFA just means you lose the ball to the opponents and you lose the game. You're coming from a place where winning seems to be the goal. For a kids' team shouldn't having fun come first?
- bachmeier 10y ago
  Repeatedly losing the ball is not only not fun, it is painful for teammates to watch someone waste opportunity after opportunity in an attempt to create highlights, and it is boring for the parents to watch.
  - paulcole 10y ago
    I think for a child's team being coached by parents the main goal should be the kids having fun and getting exercise, not entertaining the parents.
- hyperpape 10y ago
  You should have fun, but you should also teach real skills. You seem to have confused the statements "winning isn't the only goal" and "winning isn't a goal".
- jerf 10y ago
  It depends on the age. My children have done some soccer at 4-5, and at that age, yeah it's just a fancy way of running around. But as the kids get older, if winning and losing isn't on the table at all... what's the point? Why can't we use our hands? It's not like it affects the nonexistant outcome. Why are we chasing the balls instead of just running around on the playground? It's not like it affects the nonexistant out come. Why are we... non-existant outcome... etc. The whole activity has no foundation whatsoever if there's no victory state, and kids do eventually notice. Yeah, some people get way too excited about it. This is not the dominant problem that I see; I see more people entirely destroying all reason to play the game at all by trying to remove the pain of loss, at the cost of the thrill of victory, any reason to work on improving oneself, and any reason to even be playing at all.
CriminallyInane 10y ago
but... the kids are playing the game... they are playing fifa like they play in real life and vice versa. Just sounds to me like they are learning the game and making mistakes in both.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Sure, and it's pretty all right when they are young kids playing for fun. When it's boys nearing adulthood supposedly playing more seriously, a few of them dreaming about pro careers, it looks silly and is frustrating to observe. One essential thing to learn when you study football is that you have to respect and listen to your coach and also the teammates: don't lose the ball stupidly.
rlander 10y ago
> The gameplay on screen rewards visual stunts that are much less effective in real play. The movement of ball and players doesn't actually have to be like it is in reality, because it is a video game. Ronaldinho would like to have a word with you. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IBERQ9abkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IBERQ9abkk [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0ksVaLlaIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0ksVaLlaIw [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6mk0auHpis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6mk0auHpis * Edit: For the donwvoters: I used to play college-level football in the US and Brazil, and these kinds of plays are commonplace in Brazil. Kids learn to dribble before they even learn how to run. This is part of Brazilian culture: a player who can dribble is much more valued than one who can shoot or pass accurately.
- noxToken 10y ago
  For every clip or montage of beautifully executed flair, there are tens or hundreds of hours of unrecorded or unpublished mistakes. I have a few hundred hours of recorded gameplay footage. I could make plenty of highlight reels out of the footage, but the mistakes eclipse the fancy by a wide margin.
  - rlander 10y ago
    I used to play college level football in the US and Brazil, and I can tell you for sure: these kind of plays are totally usual in Brazil. But I do understand your feelings, since US football (or soccer as they call it) is more about about physical conditioning than skill.
  - sangnoir 10y ago
    > For every clip or montage of beautifully executed flair, there are tens or hundreds of hours of unrecorded or unpublished mistakes. This is true, but for athlete who takes the sport seriously, most of those mistakes are made during practice and not on match day.
    - petepete 10y ago
      Most professionals don't play at the top level, you don't see many moments of beautifully executed flair in the second or third divisions.
kohanz 10y ago
There have always been kids who wanted to play sports the fancy way, with flair, long before video games. Especially at the youth level, you'll just get a lot of kids who value creativity and self expression over what the most winning strategy is. I play FIFA (and soccer IRL) quite a bit and the highest level players (yes, there are professional FIFA players) actually play the game much closer to what you're referring to as the optimal style of play: short ground passes, keeping possession, playing backwards to keep possession, very little trying to beat your man one-on-one, creating chances by making runs, defending by jockeying your man without gambling, and good shots from good positions. At a high level, it's well understood by players that most scoring opportunities are created by causing the opposing team to lose their defensive shape through probing passes and runs, and then capitalizing on that space. Of course FIFA is not a simulation and can't be fully realistic - you're generally fitting a 90 minute soccer match into about 12 minutes of real life gameplay. What you're describing sounds like typical youth behavior, but you're blaming it on video games. Before video games, kids would try to do things they saw their pro idols do on television as well. It didn't ruin the game.
- viewer5 10y ago
  Kinda random, but is there a guide for FIFA for someone who doesn't know how to actually play soccer? I very much enjoy playing with my brother, but neither of us understand 80% of the vocab, so the usual video game trick of "go look at the controls, find out what's available to you" isn't even useful. We'd both love to get better but we don't really have the time to invest in learning a whole sport and all the vocab that goes with it. I've searched youtube and google, but haven't found anything to help.
  - kohanz 10y ago
    I would recommend searching the r/FIFA subreddit. There is a ton of stuff on there that is childish (it is a game played mostly by kids after all), but every so often one of the better players will post a thorough guide on how to emulate their playstyle. Be forewarned about how much FIFA players like to complain about the game.
  - Fredi_ 10y ago
pvg 10y ago
Kids will still emulate semi-impossible things done by pro players even if it wasn't for FIFA so I'm not sure (nor do I think the article makes a particularly convincing case) the video game is to blame here. These long passes and traps are not from a video game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoviAc15Amk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoviAc15Amk
supercanuck 10y ago
I don't know if FIFA Is the true source of the "stupidity" ... I mean, who doesn't want to try using the things you've been goofing around with in your own backyard. I remember visualizing myself as Ken Griffey Jr when playing baseball, who isn't pretending they are Lionel Messi in soccer. This reminds me of the kids trying to hit homeruns on an 0 - 2 count in baseball. They'll learn. Its kids learning the game, and kids being kids rather than simply being chess pieces for a 40 year old dad.
- 127001brewer 10y ago
  This past season, the Baltimore Orioles were hitting for runs instead of bases: http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/orioles-near-mlb-home-run-power-hitting-history-as-regular-season-winds-down/ http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/orioles-near-mlb-home-run-... ...and they almost made it past the Wildcard Playoff game.
  - supercanuck 10y ago
    You are missing my point http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/split.cgi?t=b&lg=MLB&year=2016#count http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/split.cgi?t=b&lg=M... Even the Orioles had a low OPS in 0 - 2 counts. http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=b&team=BAL&year=2016 http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=b&team=B... basically, your approach should change in an 0 - 2 count: http://www.ahittersedge.com/AboutUs/ArticlesBlog/tabid/4804/aid/114/Default.aspx http://www.ahittersedge.com/AboutUs/ArticlesBlog/tabid/4804/...
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Trying it a few times in training is not stupidity, it's just curiosity. Doing it over and over in a game, even when your coach and teammates tell you not to, is stupidity...
  - hluska 10y ago
    I take deep issue with anyone who refers to anything that kids do as 'stupidity'. They're kids playing a game. We have no idea what their home lives are like and we have no idea what the game represents to them. They're kids, not professionals and frankly, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.
parthdesai 10y ago
Completely agree about "visual stunts" parts. You will find that there are world's best freestylers ( people who can do insane tricks with ball at their feet) who don't even make it to a 2nd division league.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  And that's completely reasonable, because freestyling with ball is just a different sport. It can also be amazing to watch, some guys are incredibly skillful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH42LEhcV3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH42LEhcV3Y (beware, the sound track is irritating) Great football players often could make some reasonable freestyling that impresses laymen, but they don't get even close to a dedicated spacialist. And the dedicated specialist will loose the ball in an actual game quickly, because in freestyling, you don't learn to shield from a tackle and you're probably not good at all in running 90 minutes. Moreover, football is a game where you have 22 players on the pitch, and at most one player has total control of the ball at any one time. Most of the game play is moving without a ball - but still it's very important; particularly, defending is all about where you are and how you move, but also in attacking play, the ball-less players make the opportunities.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    Honestly, it feels like the difference between synchronized and 'regular' swimming, or ice dancing and speed skating. The only difference is that freestyling hasn't been equally established as a distinct activity. In every case, the regular sport requires some of the technique and control of the performance sport, but comes with a rigid demand for efficiency.
  - parthdesai 10y ago
    Yes definitely. It's just that to a normal person who doesn't know the sport, it might seem that being good at freestyle translated to being good at regular soccer/football.
  - swasheck 10y ago
    i've found that, so far, the hardest things to teach u10-u12 teams are: a) spacing b) timing runs c) speed dribble
brudgers 10y ago
Der Ball ist rund und das Spiel dauert 90 Minuten. [1] Everything else is just theory. One of those is o jogo bonito. Paid coaches are usually not so great a fan as a child among friends left themselves. In the end, objectively good players are in part objectively good because they've learned to receive aerial balls aerially and that enables them to play more quickly. It's a case where kids are making themselves better despite the intentions of the adults taking charge. They're not just playing FIFA, their researching the moves on YouTube. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepp_Herberger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepp_Herberger
arjie 10y ago
How interesting. Usually your teammates will kill you for flair that doesn't help. And if you do it repeatedly, you won't get called the next time the gang goes out to play. Here's a story: Growing up in India, we'd play football on this muddy ground next to an open sewer. There's only one field and maybe six or seven teams so we'd play golden goal or ten minutes. You had ten minutes to score to stay, but if your opponent scored you have to join the back of the queue. If you boot the ball too hard, it falls in the sewer and it's on you to go retrieve it among the shit and piss and everyone has to remember not to head it until it's washed off. It's also about 37 to 40 degrees outside and there's no shade, so losing is no fun since you may have to wait half an hour for your next game. Amusingly, this ends up defaulting to the possession game with short passes. Unfortunately, I wasn't very good at the game, and so I played RB and had to retrieve the ball from the sewer many times before I learned to be a little better with my ground passes. I never did get very good, but at least I stopped having to go get the ball. Maybe a few tropical diseases will fix your kids right up.
- stcredzero 10y ago
  I think the helicopter parenting debate could be reduced to just knowledge of consequences and systemic thinking. The situation you described was an excellent opportunity for you and your playmates to understand the consequences of play style and play environment as a messy real-world system. This is something you don't get nearly as much of playing video games or going to the mall. So many of our experiences are curated, artificial, and fall far short of the real-world level of complexity.
- tnecniv 10y ago
  > How interesting. Usually your teammates will kill you for flair that doesn't help. And if you do it repeatedly, you won't get called the next time the gang goes out to play. Depends on the group. Where I grew up, style was the name of the game. It wasn't good enough to do a layup. You had to do a trick layup with a needless underhand, etc. The problem is that there was always one or two players that were naturally gifted and played all day so they could do any trick they wanted. Then, everyone tries to do it to show they have chops, too.
- hluska 10y ago
stcredzero 10y ago
Of course games are going to change the way people see the world. Any powerful form of media is going to be able to do this. This can work out for good or for ill. I once had an interesting experience when referring to a bit of anthropology in a comment. I brought up the well known idea that the requirement for cooperation in traditional Japanese rice agriculture -- namely for the maintenance of irrigation -- had a strong influence on the egalitarian peasant side of Japanese culture. To this, an avid 4X game player replied in outrage, "AGRICULTURE!?" He then elaborated that he had been conditioned to think of it as the starting point on the tech tree, therefore base, basic, and completely insignificant. This is completely at odds with reality, however. There is a lot of skill and knowledge involved with agriculture, especially so when done with stone age technology. Does this make games worse than other forms of media? No. You can find examples of screwed up ideas people pick up about things in all forms of media, going right back to ballads about princesses and war heroes in pre-literate cultures. However, I would say that the potential for both good and harm is especially strong with video, cinema, and games, because they can work on such a visceral level. (Also, is our culture as savvy with such effects from games, as it is about such effects from songs, novels, movies, and TV commercials? I think it's currently catching up.) EDIT: Please don't automatically assume that I agree with the loudest voices when it comes to the analysis of media. I don't! Reality is complex and nuanced.
ktRolster 10y ago
If you have kids that are passing the ball accurately to each other through the air, then you have a really good team. Also, if you have kids who can accurately do bicycle kicks, then you have a really good team.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  Well, you have really good players. Good players can carry a team, but they're not the same thing. I found in the past when playing that players who are convinced of their own greatness could ruin the game; maybe still get a win, but that was never really what I cared for.
  - ktRolster 10y ago
    maybe still get a win, but that was never really what I cared for. Winning is the only thing lol. In any case, if you have good players on your team, it's better to build on that foundation.
    - m1sta_ 10y ago
      Winning is not the only thing.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        A good nutmeg is worth almost as much as a goal.
SandersAK 10y ago
The lack of flair and ingenuity in youth soccer in America is why our teams are so bad. We drill kids in what we think are core fundamentals because we treat soccer like US Football instead of the fluid dynamic game that it is.
- serge2k 10y ago
  > we treat soccer like US Football Well that's the problem. Quit leaving half the team on the bench and only practicing in 10 second bursts.
Noctem 10y ago
I'm surprised that you mention lob passes to support your case. While the gameplay footage in trailers may feature them prominently since they're fun to watch, I wouldn't say that the actual game usually rewards playing that way. I rely far more on ground passes in the game than the teams I follow (Manchester United and Real Salt Lake) do in real life since it's so much easier to retain possession that way.

gspetr 10y ago

You got to admit though that the bicycle kick is spectacular to watch when it does succeed, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1odrzGKMzE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1odrzGKMzE

caseysoftware 10y ago
Thanks for the clip. That was great. You can see everyone briefly relax when the keeper deflects the initial shot. They thought the pressure was gone.. and then BOOM.
ptaipale 10y ago
Of course, yes, but about nine times out of ten a better attempt would have been made with a simple header or by passing the ball downwards. Football is a team sport. It's great to be able to score from a difficult position. But it's much better to keep your eyes open, know where your teammates are, and pass to someone who is in a better position.
- thom 10y ago
  Which, nine times out of then, means not crossing the ball in the first place. Although now I look upthread, that's pretty much what you're advocating.
supercanuck 10y ago
and ridiculously hilarious when they do not, even for professionals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA-AEEPol_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA-AEEPol_8
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  I enjoy any technique that looks that absurd when it goes slightly wrong. Flying headers are particularly beautiful - you just get a player sailing across the field into nothing in particular.
sschueller 10y ago
Yes, https://youtu.be/YJX0an_d3wo https://youtu.be/YJX0an_d3wo

paulcole 10y ago

>Thus, playing like FIFA just means you lose the ball to the opponents and you lose the game. You're coming from a place where winning seems to be the goal. For a kids' team shouldn't having fun come first?

bachmeier 10y ago
Repeatedly losing the ball is not only not fun, it is painful for teammates to watch someone waste opportunity after opportunity in an attempt to create highlights, and it is boring for the parents to watch.
- paulcole 10y ago
  I think for a child's team being coached by parents the main goal should be the kids having fun and getting exercise, not entertaining the parents.
hyperpape 10y ago
You should have fun, but you should also teach real skills. You seem to have confused the statements "winning isn't the only goal" and "winning isn't a goal".
jerf 10y ago
It depends on the age. My children have done some soccer at 4-5, and at that age, yeah it's just a fancy way of running around. But as the kids get older, if winning and losing isn't on the table at all... what's the point? Why can't we use our hands? It's not like it affects the nonexistant outcome. Why are we chasing the balls instead of just running around on the playground? It's not like it affects the nonexistant out come. Why are we... non-existant outcome... etc. The whole activity has no foundation whatsoever if there's no victory state, and kids do eventually notice. Yeah, some people get way too excited about it. This is not the dominant problem that I see; I see more people entirely destroying all reason to play the game at all by trying to remove the pain of loss, at the cost of the thrill of victory, any reason to work on improving oneself, and any reason to even be playing at all.

CriminallyInane 10y ago

but... the kids are playing the game... they are playing fifa like they play in real life and vice versa. Just sounds to me like they are learning the game and making mistakes in both.

ptaipale 10y ago
Sure, and it's pretty all right when they are young kids playing for fun. When it's boys nearing adulthood supposedly playing more seriously, a few of them dreaming about pro careers, it looks silly and is frustrating to observe. One essential thing to learn when you study football is that you have to respect and listen to your coach and also the teammates: don't lose the ball stupidly.

rlander 10y ago

> The gameplay on screen rewards visual stunts that are much less effective in real play. The movement of ball and players doesn't actually have to be like it is in reality, because it is a video game. Ronaldinho would like to have a word with you. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IBERQ9abkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IBERQ9abkk [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0ksVaLlaIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0ksVaLlaIw [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6mk0auHpis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6mk0auHpis * Edit: For the donwvoters: I used to play college-level football in the US and Brazil, and these kinds of plays are commonplace in Brazil. Kids learn to dribble before they even learn how to run. This is part of Brazilian culture: a player who can dribble is much more valued than one who can shoot or pass accurately.

noxToken 10y ago
For every clip or montage of beautifully executed flair, there are tens or hundreds of hours of unrecorded or unpublished mistakes. I have a few hundred hours of recorded gameplay footage. I could make plenty of highlight reels out of the footage, but the mistakes eclipse the fancy by a wide margin.
- rlander 10y ago
  I used to play college level football in the US and Brazil, and I can tell you for sure: these kind of plays are totally usual in Brazil. But I do understand your feelings, since US football (or soccer as they call it) is more about about physical conditioning than skill.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > For every clip or montage of beautifully executed flair, there are tens or hundreds of hours of unrecorded or unpublished mistakes. This is true, but for athlete who takes the sport seriously, most of those mistakes are made during practice and not on match day.
  - petepete 10y ago
    Most professionals don't play at the top level, you don't see many moments of beautifully executed flair in the second or third divisions.

kohanz 10y ago

There have always been kids who wanted to play sports the fancy way, with flair, long before video games. Especially at the youth level, you'll just get a lot of kids who value creativity and self expression over what the most winning strategy is. I play FIFA (and soccer IRL) quite a bit and the highest level players (yes, there are professional FIFA players) actually play the game much closer to what you're referring to as the optimal style of play: short ground passes, keeping possession, playing backwards to keep possession, very little trying to beat your man one-on-one, creating chances by making runs, defending by jockeying your man without gambling, and good shots from good positions. At a high level, it's well understood by players that most scoring opportunities are created by causing the opposing team to lose their defensive shape through probing passes and runs, and then capitalizing on that space. Of course FIFA is not a simulation and can't be fully realistic - you're generally fitting a 90 minute soccer match into about 12 minutes of real life gameplay. What you're describing sounds like typical youth behavior, but you're blaming it on video games. Before video games, kids would try to do things they saw their pro idols do on television as well. It didn't ruin the game.

viewer5 10y ago
Kinda random, but is there a guide for FIFA for someone who doesn't know how to actually play soccer? I very much enjoy playing with my brother, but neither of us understand 80% of the vocab, so the usual video game trick of "go look at the controls, find out what's available to you" isn't even useful. We'd both love to get better but we don't really have the time to invest in learning a whole sport and all the vocab that goes with it. I've searched youtube and google, but haven't found anything to help.
- kohanz 10y ago
  I would recommend searching the r/FIFA subreddit. There is a ton of stuff on there that is childish (it is a game played mostly by kids after all), but every so often one of the better players will post a thorough guide on how to emulate their playstyle. Be forewarned about how much FIFA players like to complain about the game.
- Fredi_ 10y ago

pvg 10y ago

Kids will still emulate semi-impossible things done by pro players even if it wasn't for FIFA so I'm not sure (nor do I think the article makes a particularly convincing case) the video game is to blame here. These long passes and traps are not from a video game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoviAc15Amk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoviAc15Amk

supercanuck 10y ago

I don't know if FIFA Is the true source of the "stupidity" ... I mean, who doesn't want to try using the things you've been goofing around with in your own backyard. I remember visualizing myself as Ken Griffey Jr when playing baseball, who isn't pretending they are Lionel Messi in soccer. This reminds me of the kids trying to hit homeruns on an 0 - 2 count in baseball. They'll learn. Its kids learning the game, and kids being kids rather than simply being chess pieces for a 40 year old dad.

127001brewer 10y ago
This past season, the Baltimore Orioles were hitting for runs instead of bases: http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/orioles-near-mlb-home-run-power-hitting-history-as-regular-season-winds-down/ http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/orioles-near-mlb-home-run-... ...and they almost made it past the Wildcard Playoff game.
- supercanuck 10y ago
  You are missing my point http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/split.cgi?t=b&lg=MLB&year=2016#count http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/split.cgi?t=b&lg=M... Even the Orioles had a low OPS in 0 - 2 counts. http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=b&team=BAL&year=2016 http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=b&team=B... basically, your approach should change in an 0 - 2 count: http://www.ahittersedge.com/AboutUs/ArticlesBlog/tabid/4804/aid/114/Default.aspx http://www.ahittersedge.com/AboutUs/ArticlesBlog/tabid/4804/...
ptaipale 10y ago
Trying it a few times in training is not stupidity, it's just curiosity. Doing it over and over in a game, even when your coach and teammates tell you not to, is stupidity...
- hluska 10y ago
  I take deep issue with anyone who refers to anything that kids do as 'stupidity'. They're kids playing a game. We have no idea what their home lives are like and we have no idea what the game represents to them. They're kids, not professionals and frankly, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

parthdesai 10y ago

Completely agree about "visual stunts" parts. You will find that there are world's best freestylers ( people who can do insane tricks with ball at their feet) who don't even make it to a 2nd division league.

ptaipale 10y ago
And that's completely reasonable, because freestyling with ball is just a different sport. It can also be amazing to watch, some guys are incredibly skillful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH42LEhcV3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH42LEhcV3Y (beware, the sound track is irritating) Great football players often could make some reasonable freestyling that impresses laymen, but they don't get even close to a dedicated spacialist. And the dedicated specialist will loose the ball in an actual game quickly, because in freestyling, you don't learn to shield from a tackle and you're probably not good at all in running 90 minutes. Moreover, football is a game where you have 22 players on the pitch, and at most one player has total control of the ball at any one time. Most of the game play is moving without a ball - but still it's very important; particularly, defending is all about where you are and how you move, but also in attacking play, the ball-less players make the opportunities.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  Honestly, it feels like the difference between synchronized and 'regular' swimming, or ice dancing and speed skating. The only difference is that freestyling hasn't been equally established as a distinct activity. In every case, the regular sport requires some of the technique and control of the performance sport, but comes with a rigid demand for efficiency.
- parthdesai 10y ago
  Yes definitely. It's just that to a normal person who doesn't know the sport, it might seem that being good at freestyle translated to being good at regular soccer/football.
- swasheck 10y ago
  i've found that, so far, the hardest things to teach u10-u12 teams are: a) spacing b) timing runs c) speed dribble

brudgers 10y ago

Der Ball ist rund und das Spiel dauert 90 Minuten. [1] Everything else is just theory. One of those is o jogo bonito. Paid coaches are usually not so great a fan as a child among friends left themselves. In the end, objectively good players are in part objectively good because they've learned to receive aerial balls aerially and that enables them to play more quickly. It's a case where kids are making themselves better despite the intentions of the adults taking charge. They're not just playing FIFA, their researching the moves on YouTube. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepp_Herberger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepp_Herberger

arjie 10y ago

How interesting. Usually your teammates will kill you for flair that doesn't help. And if you do it repeatedly, you won't get called the next time the gang goes out to play. Here's a story: Growing up in India, we'd play football on this muddy ground next to an open sewer. There's only one field and maybe six or seven teams so we'd play golden goal or ten minutes. You had ten minutes to score to stay, but if your opponent scored you have to join the back of the queue. If you boot the ball too hard, it falls in the sewer and it's on you to go retrieve it among the shit and piss and everyone has to remember not to head it until it's washed off. It's also about 37 to 40 degrees outside and there's no shade, so losing is no fun since you may have to wait half an hour for your next game. Amusingly, this ends up defaulting to the possession game with short passes. Unfortunately, I wasn't very good at the game, and so I played RB and had to retrieve the ball from the sewer many times before I learned to be a little better with my ground passes. I never did get very good, but at least I stopped having to go get the ball. Maybe a few tropical diseases will fix your kids right up.

stcredzero 10y ago
I think the helicopter parenting debate could be reduced to just knowledge of consequences and systemic thinking. The situation you described was an excellent opportunity for you and your playmates to understand the consequences of play style and play environment as a messy real-world system. This is something you don't get nearly as much of playing video games or going to the mall. So many of our experiences are curated, artificial, and fall far short of the real-world level of complexity.
tnecniv 10y ago
> How interesting. Usually your teammates will kill you for flair that doesn't help. And if you do it repeatedly, you won't get called the next time the gang goes out to play. Depends on the group. Where I grew up, style was the name of the game. It wasn't good enough to do a layup. You had to do a trick layup with a needless underhand, etc. The problem is that there was always one or two players that were naturally gifted and played all day so they could do any trick they wanted. Then, everyone tries to do it to show they have chops, too.
hluska 10y ago

stcredzero 10y ago

Of course games are going to change the way people see the world. Any powerful form of media is going to be able to do this. This can work out for good or for ill. I once had an interesting experience when referring to a bit of anthropology in a comment. I brought up the well known idea that the requirement for cooperation in traditional Japanese rice agriculture -- namely for the maintenance of irrigation -- had a strong influence on the egalitarian peasant side of Japanese culture. To this, an avid 4X game player replied in outrage, "AGRICULTURE!?" He then elaborated that he had been conditioned to think of it as the starting point on the tech tree, therefore base, basic, and completely insignificant. This is completely at odds with reality, however. There is a lot of skill and knowledge involved with agriculture, especially so when done with stone age technology. Does this make games worse than other forms of media? No. You can find examples of screwed up ideas people pick up about things in all forms of media, going right back to ballads about princesses and war heroes in pre-literate cultures. However, I would say that the potential for both good and harm is especially strong with video, cinema, and games, because they can work on such a visceral level. (Also, is our culture as savvy with such effects from games, as it is about such effects from songs, novels, movies, and TV commercials? I think it's currently catching up.) EDIT: Please don't automatically assume that I agree with the loudest voices when it comes to the analysis of media. I don't! Reality is complex and nuanced.

ktRolster 10y ago

If you have kids that are passing the ball accurately to each other through the air, then you have a really good team. Also, if you have kids who can accurately do bicycle kicks, then you have a really good team.

pbhjpbhj 10y ago
Well, you have really good players. Good players can carry a team, but they're not the same thing. I found in the past when playing that players who are convinced of their own greatness could ruin the game; maybe still get a win, but that was never really what I cared for.
- ktRolster 10y ago
  maybe still get a win, but that was never really what I cared for. Winning is the only thing lol. In any case, if you have good players on your team, it's better to build on that foundation.
  - m1sta_ 10y ago
    Winning is not the only thing.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      A good nutmeg is worth almost as much as a goal.

SandersAK 10y ago

The lack of flair and ingenuity in youth soccer in America is why our teams are so bad. We drill kids in what we think are core fundamentals because we treat soccer like US Football instead of the fluid dynamic game that it is.

serge2k 10y ago
> we treat soccer like US Football Well that's the problem. Quit leaving half the team on the bench and only practicing in 10 second bursts.

Noctem 10y ago

I'm surprised that you mention lob passes to support your case. While the gameplay footage in trailers may feature them prominently since they're fun to watch, I wouldn't say that the actual game usually rewards playing that way. I rely far more on ground passes in the game than the teams I follow (Manchester United and Real Salt Lake) do in real life since it's so much easier to retain possession that way.