48 ms·

There's a big problem here: Parents are judged poorly no matter how they oversee their children. You watch over your children and make sure they're safe and sup

There's a big problem here: Parents are judged poorly no matter how they oversee their children. You watch over your children and make sure they're safe and supported? You're a helicopter parent. Took your eyes off your child for five seconds and he jumped into a cage with a gorrilla at the zoo? You're a horrible neglectful mother. Spoke to the principal of your kid's school concerning a bully or about putting some padding over the concrete at the playground? You're creating a "safe space" for your child and raising them to be a sissy. Being a parent is a no-win scenario in the eyes of public perception. People always talk about "back in my day" when things were tougher and how that made them resilient. Well, back in those days, kids got impaled on steering wheels sitting in their parents laps while they drove, got skull fractures from falling on playground concrete or teeth knocked out from see-saws, or they committed suicide because school administrators saw bullying as a natural means of letting kids establish a pecking-order. Following science-informed safety measures is too often dismissed as coddling our children. I'm all for letting kids roam and giving them responsibilities. But there's a rational, measured way to provide for such freedom and responsibility. Because if anything bad happens to your child while giving them such freedom, you will face the wrath of social media. I watch time and again as the same people complaining about sissification of our children are also the first to rage against the parents when the news reports on a child coming into any kind of harm. If people would empathize with parents instead of leaping to judgement of them, the world would be a better place.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
irrational 10y ago
Hmm, reading your post makes me wonder if the problem is people not having enough children. What I mean is, back in "the day" people were too busy trying to keep up with their own kids to worry about what other people were doing with their kids. But now that people have few or no kids they have plenty of time to tell other people how they are doing it wrong. I sometimes wonder if so much of the partisanship, outrage over seemingly little things, rude comments on discussion boards etc. is just people having too much time on their hands. Were people happier back when they had to struggle each day to survive? Anyway, I need to get back to commenting on what the Kardashians are doing today.
- epalmer 10y ago
  I think your theory has merit. I have grown kids, 18 and 24. I tried to instill reflection and decision making skills. I cheered the loses and the wins. What doesn't kill u makes us stronger. But as a parent it scares the devil out of us.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    I'm critical of all wisdom sayings. What doesn't kill you may go on to make you chronically ill or permanently disabled. A wise man once said: When you have one child it's a tragedy. When you have ten children the other nine will help the disabled one, or drown him in the pool.
    - reflexive 10y ago
      > I'm critical of all wisdom sayings. Wisdom is knowing which saying applies to the situation. "Many hands make light work" but "too many cooks spoil the soup".
      - tremon 10y ago
        Off topic, but those two do not contradict each other. The former concerns menial labour, the latter is about decision making.
        reflexive 10y ago
        Excellent distinction... how about these: "Birds of a feather flock together" but "opposites attract". "Respect your elders" but "wisdom comes not from age, but from education and learning". "Failing to prepare is preparing to fail" but "cross that bridge when you get to it". (perhaps the most balanced aphorism on the virtues of preparation: "plans are useless, but planning is indispensable".)
        sanderjd 10y ago
linkregister 10y ago
I think you're overestimating the risk of humiliation for both parenting approaches. How often are parents accused of being helicopter parents for supervising their play? The term made into pop culture from parents who were physically showing up to college classes and arguing with lecturers on behalf of their children. It's possible your circle of Facebook friends is extremely critical of parents in general. More likely, it's a few dramatic individuals clouding your perception of the population writ large. Note that the immense coverage of the Maryland "free range children" episode was because of mass surprise and outrage that the parents were treated so harshly by police.
- duaneb 10y ago
  > The term made into pop culture from parents who were physically showing up to college classes and arguing with lecturers on behalf of their children. No, it came from a huge variety of behavior. I've never even heard of the above story before, but I certainly associate it with parents who got their kids into a good school by any means necessary, INCLUDING hand-shaping their children's social life and extracurriculars. I'd say babysitting your kids 24/7 definitely qualifies if the motivation is to control your child, as it almost always is.
daxfohl 10y ago
Perhaps the increasing difficulty of parenting is nature's feedback cycle to slow global warming. Theoretically plausible if DNA came from outer space and had already encoded some weird mechanism there. However assuming thus, unlikely given Fermi paradox.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Or maybe it's nature feedback cycle to slow down the growth economy when it reaches absurd levels. Note that the strongest relationship found for number of children people have is the inverse correlation with wealth.
  - daxfohl 10y ago
    Reference of last statement? Most at top of the Forbes list have kids. Still, quoting someone else's sarcasm, "I don't know what the meaning of life is, but if it's not 'increasing shareholder value', we're all screwed".
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
    - emp_zealoth 10y ago
      On average level, the reacher the nation, the less kids they have. Btw you can google that, it is so widely known almost anything relevant you put into the search bar will return dozens of results. But i guess it is easier to say "reference?" to every single little fact... /rant
      - daxfohl 10y ago
        The quote was that it was "the strongest relationship" though. Strongest with respect to what? That's what I was asking reference for.
  - 10y ago
appleiigs 10y ago
Another thing is we don't have much practice as parents over our life time. A quick google says US has 1.87 children per family. So we end up having ~2 kicks at the can, raising our children the best we can, with the results only coming years later and obfuscated by different cultures, wealth, etc. We end up relying on "back in my day" anecdotal experiences. Often just based on our ideals and preferences which will be different from one family to the next. Yes, empathy without judging would go a long way. Crazy to think that my way is the best for everyone.
- danielweber 10y ago
  This is good. When people had 6 kids over 25 years, the older children learned how to raise kids by raising their younger siblings, and the younger children learned how to raise kids by watching their older siblings have kids.
  - noobiemcfoob 10y ago
    I come from a chaotic family tree. I'm the youngest of 5 spread across ~30 years. On the upside, yeah, I think I can attest to a lot of what you're saying. On the downside, most people can't relate and you have an odd mix of "old" and "young" behaviors...
    - danielweber 10y ago
      I spent a lot of my life optimizing for adult relationships, and now I've got kids with behaviors that are normal for kids but in adults would be self-destructive, irrational, psychotic, and like a drug addict.
bitJericho 10y ago
No not that. Do anything to me, anything but being ridiculed by social media! This has helped me become a better parent. http://www.freerangekids.com/ http://www.freerangekids.com/
totally 10y ago
> you will face the wrath of social media Bring it on.
- Pigo 10y ago
  Don't log in, problem solved
  - bitJericho 10y ago
    But what if Oprah says ima bad parent?? Or Joey Salads?
bonesmoses 10y ago
I'm not entirely certain normalizing hyperbole makes sense here. There's a massive difference between ensuring children are safe and supported, and never letting them do anything without supervision or face any consequences up to and including when they go to college or join the workforce. There's an equally vast gap between taking eyes off a child for a few seconds, and outright neglect. Likewise, there's a universe of difference between basic precautions and the equivalent of a Safe Space (tm). Yeah, I get that people are going to naturally jump to conclusions. Yet glossing over the minutiae is exactly how we got into the situation where everyone is jumping at shadows in the first place. Everyone's a rapist! Children are being mowed down in the streets! Drugs are everywhere! Never go outside! Anything else is literal child abuse! How dare you! How does catering to social media because it might overreact fix that? How is that encouraging empathy? What makes this a "big problem?" Isn't relaxing our iron grip just a tiny fragment and rolling some of this hysteria back slightly do exactly that? Empathy for the situation instead of zealous indignation?
jandrese 10y ago
I don't really care if someone disapproves of the way I'm raising my children, but it's a real hassle if they call CPS. Throughout history there have been people on both ends of the spectrum who are more than willing to tell you that you're doing it wrong, but it seems like lately they've been feeling more empowered to call in the state to enforce their beliefs. It doesn't help that people read about a few extreme cases in the newspaper or online and suddenly think children are made out of fine china. Go to Youtube on any "funny pratfalls" video and you'll see comments about how thousands of children die every year because they trip and fall over while running and omg how can that parent be so bad they need to have their children taken away immediately, blah blah blah... Parents know that is a load of hogwash, but other people read that and maybe even believe it and suddenly playground swings are like public enemy number one.
awesomerobot 10y ago
People just need to empathize in general. There's so much polarizing armchair bullshit once anything goes wrong for someone else, it's crazy. Modern interconnectivity is seemingly creating networks of assholes to an extent that wouldn't exist in the past because you just didn't really know everyone's business all the time.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > People just need to empathize in general. There's so much polarizing armchair bullshit once anything goes wrong for someone else, it's crazy. We don't need more empathizing, but we need science to find objective facts instead of opinions.
  - zepto 10y ago
    Empathizing means understanding other people's point of view. Why wouldn't we need more of that?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      In my experience often understanding how stupid the points of other people are makes me hate them much more than if I simply would not understand them. Is this what you evangelize?
      - projektir 10y ago
        Are you sure you're actually truly understanding people in that case? I've only seen that kind of reaction from a very shallow application.
      - zepto 10y ago
        Generally understanding other people's points of view makes them seem less stupid, not more so. You might be confusing people's opinions with their points of view.
tn13 10y ago
I am not worried about my neighbors judging me. I am worried about governmental agencies paying me visit. It rarely matters if people are racist towards me, it makes big difference if the cops treat me differently because of my skin color. Rules of the game (in theory and practice) as a bigger impact on parenting. I take my kids to India just so that they can travel alone, play alone, climb trees and sit on the front seats etc.
wolfgke 10y ago
> Being a parent is a no-win scenario in the eyes of public perception. The only winning move is not to play (in other words: not give birth to children).
projektir 10y ago
> There's a big problem here: Parents are judged poorly no matter how they oversee their children. You watch over your children and make sure they're safe and supported? You're a helicopter parent. Took your eyes off your child for five seconds and he jumped into a cage with a gorrilla at the zoo? You're a horrible neglectful mother. Spoke to the principal of your kid's school concerning a bully or about putting some padding over the concrete at the playground? You're creating a "safe space" for your child and raising them to be a sissy. Being a parent is a no-win scenario in the eyes of public perception. Replace "parents" with "people" and "oversee their children" with "live", and you get the problem on the higher level.
- taneq 10y ago
  True, but the special case of "being responsible for the wellbeing of another person while simultaneously needing to respect their autonomy to some degree" is significantly more fraught than just "people gonna judge how you live". This also applies to other situations, like the government's role in dealing with indigenous populations. The government can't force them to attend school, study, work, create healthy family environments, moderate substance use etc. because that impinges on their rights. The government is then taken to task for the indigenous population's lack of education and employment, their living conditions, problems with substance abuse, and so on. There's no way to win.
ddingus 10y ago
Let them judge. I did. Gave two shits too. Result: my kids did a lot of stuff that I also did, and I did a bunch of it with them too. Might as well. My parents were hands off to a high degree. I value this extremely highly. I balanced it by sharing the good stuff, while allowing them to be kids and roam, explore. I also encouraged them to bring it back to me. Share. If it somehow goes bad, you want us and our kids. Those judging? Left as exercise for the reader. Social media these days... Let's just say I curate what I share, and it's not much, and for sure not the good stuff. And the kids knew the rule too. Lots of stuff doesn't go on social media. Out in the woods, built lean to, fire, explored the hills, made a small dam, cooked what we killed? FB: Oh, just an action movie with Dad. Harsh, I know. But, I also know the value of those experiences too.
axonic 10y ago
Judgement of parenting from a single event is arbitrary at best and criminal at worst. Child Protection Services investigated my mother and accused her of burning me with a cigarette (it was a mosquito bite, I'm allergic to their anticoagulant) but years later turned me in to her custody, told me 'back in my day' stories and treated me as a trouble making 'runaway' after witnesses described her physically attacking me with punches, threatening me with a handgun, and swinging a stoneware coffee mug at my head. My great grandmother however was kind, had 14 kids, 7 survived. That was farm life then... I wonder how she'd have been judged today? Investigated for abuse, neglect, or murder? My mother's A-OK though apparently. We don't speak.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

irrational 10y ago

Hmm, reading your post makes me wonder if the problem is people not having enough children. What I mean is, back in "the day" people were too busy trying to keep up with their own kids to worry about what other people were doing with their kids. But now that people have few or no kids they have plenty of time to tell other people how they are doing it wrong. I sometimes wonder if so much of the partisanship, outrage over seemingly little things, rude comments on discussion boards etc. is just people having too much time on their hands. Were people happier back when they had to struggle each day to survive? Anyway, I need to get back to commenting on what the Kardashians are doing today.

epalmer 10y ago
I think your theory has merit. I have grown kids, 18 and 24. I tried to instill reflection and decision making skills. I cheered the loses and the wins. What doesn't kill u makes us stronger. But as a parent it scares the devil out of us.
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  I'm critical of all wisdom sayings. What doesn't kill you may go on to make you chronically ill or permanently disabled. A wise man once said: When you have one child it's a tragedy. When you have ten children the other nine will help the disabled one, or drown him in the pool.
  - reflexive 10y ago
    > I'm critical of all wisdom sayings. Wisdom is knowing which saying applies to the situation. "Many hands make light work" but "too many cooks spoil the soup".
    - tremon 10y ago
      Off topic, but those two do not contradict each other. The former concerns menial labour, the latter is about decision making.
      - reflexive 10y ago
        Excellent distinction... how about these: "Birds of a feather flock together" but "opposites attract". "Respect your elders" but "wisdom comes not from age, but from education and learning". "Failing to prepare is preparing to fail" but "cross that bridge when you get to it". (perhaps the most balanced aphorism on the virtues of preparation: "plans are useless, but planning is indispensable".)
        sanderjd 10y ago

linkregister 10y ago

I think you're overestimating the risk of humiliation for both parenting approaches. How often are parents accused of being helicopter parents for supervising their play? The term made into pop culture from parents who were physically showing up to college classes and arguing with lecturers on behalf of their children. It's possible your circle of Facebook friends is extremely critical of parents in general. More likely, it's a few dramatic individuals clouding your perception of the population writ large. Note that the immense coverage of the Maryland "free range children" episode was because of mass surprise and outrage that the parents were treated so harshly by police.

duaneb 10y ago
> The term made into pop culture from parents who were physically showing up to college classes and arguing with lecturers on behalf of their children. No, it came from a huge variety of behavior. I've never even heard of the above story before, but I certainly associate it with parents who got their kids into a good school by any means necessary, INCLUDING hand-shaping their children's social life and extracurriculars. I'd say babysitting your kids 24/7 definitely qualifies if the motivation is to control your child, as it almost always is.

daxfohl 10y ago

Perhaps the increasing difficulty of parenting is nature's feedback cycle to slow global warming. Theoretically plausible if DNA came from outer space and had already encoded some weird mechanism there. However assuming thus, unlikely given Fermi paradox.

TeMPOraL 10y ago
Or maybe it's nature feedback cycle to slow down the growth economy when it reaches absurd levels. Note that the strongest relationship found for number of children people have is the inverse correlation with wealth.
- daxfohl 10y ago
  Reference of last statement? Most at top of the Forbes list have kids. Still, quoting someone else's sarcasm, "I don't know what the meaning of life is, but if it's not 'increasing shareholder value', we're all screwed".
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
  - emp_zealoth 10y ago
    On average level, the reacher the nation, the less kids they have. Btw you can google that, it is so widely known almost anything relevant you put into the search bar will return dozens of results. But i guess it is easier to say "reference?" to every single little fact... /rant
    - daxfohl 10y ago
      The quote was that it was "the strongest relationship" though. Strongest with respect to what? That's what I was asking reference for.
- 10y ago

appleiigs 10y ago

Another thing is we don't have much practice as parents over our life time. A quick google says US has 1.87 children per family. So we end up having ~2 kicks at the can, raising our children the best we can, with the results only coming years later and obfuscated by different cultures, wealth, etc. We end up relying on "back in my day" anecdotal experiences. Often just based on our ideals and preferences which will be different from one family to the next. Yes, empathy without judging would go a long way. Crazy to think that my way is the best for everyone.

danielweber 10y ago
This is good. When people had 6 kids over 25 years, the older children learned how to raise kids by raising their younger siblings, and the younger children learned how to raise kids by watching their older siblings have kids.
- noobiemcfoob 10y ago
  I come from a chaotic family tree. I'm the youngest of 5 spread across ~30 years. On the upside, yeah, I think I can attest to a lot of what you're saying. On the downside, most people can't relate and you have an odd mix of "old" and "young" behaviors...
  - danielweber 10y ago
    I spent a lot of my life optimizing for adult relationships, and now I've got kids with behaviors that are normal for kids but in adults would be self-destructive, irrational, psychotic, and like a drug addict.

bitJericho 10y ago

No not that. Do anything to me, anything but being ridiculed by social media! This has helped me become a better parent. http://www.freerangekids.com/ http://www.freerangekids.com/

totally 10y ago

> you will face the wrath of social media Bring it on.

Pigo 10y ago
Don't log in, problem solved
- bitJericho 10y ago
  But what if Oprah says ima bad parent?? Or Joey Salads?

bonesmoses 10y ago

I'm not entirely certain normalizing hyperbole makes sense here. There's a massive difference between ensuring children are safe and supported, and never letting them do anything without supervision or face any consequences up to and including when they go to college or join the workforce. There's an equally vast gap between taking eyes off a child for a few seconds, and outright neglect. Likewise, there's a universe of difference between basic precautions and the equivalent of a Safe Space (tm). Yeah, I get that people are going to naturally jump to conclusions. Yet glossing over the minutiae is exactly how we got into the situation where everyone is jumping at shadows in the first place. Everyone's a rapist! Children are being mowed down in the streets! Drugs are everywhere! Never go outside! Anything else is literal child abuse! How dare you! How does catering to social media because it might overreact fix that? How is that encouraging empathy? What makes this a "big problem?" Isn't relaxing our iron grip just a tiny fragment and rolling some of this hysteria back slightly do exactly that? Empathy for the situation instead of zealous indignation?

jandrese 10y ago

I don't really care if someone disapproves of the way I'm raising my children, but it's a real hassle if they call CPS. Throughout history there have been people on both ends of the spectrum who are more than willing to tell you that you're doing it wrong, but it seems like lately they've been feeling more empowered to call in the state to enforce their beliefs. It doesn't help that people read about a few extreme cases in the newspaper or online and suddenly think children are made out of fine china. Go to Youtube on any "funny pratfalls" video and you'll see comments about how thousands of children die every year because they trip and fall over while running and omg how can that parent be so bad they need to have their children taken away immediately, blah blah blah... Parents know that is a load of hogwash, but other people read that and maybe even believe it and suddenly playground swings are like public enemy number one.

awesomerobot 10y ago

People just need to empathize in general. There's so much polarizing armchair bullshit once anything goes wrong for someone else, it's crazy. Modern interconnectivity is seemingly creating networks of assholes to an extent that wouldn't exist in the past because you just didn't really know everyone's business all the time.

wolfgke 10y ago
> People just need to empathize in general. There's so much polarizing armchair bullshit once anything goes wrong for someone else, it's crazy. We don't need more empathizing, but we need science to find objective facts instead of opinions.
- zepto 10y ago
  Empathizing means understanding other people's point of view. Why wouldn't we need more of that?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    In my experience often understanding how stupid the points of other people are makes me hate them much more than if I simply would not understand them. Is this what you evangelize?
    - projektir 10y ago
      Are you sure you're actually truly understanding people in that case? I've only seen that kind of reaction from a very shallow application.
    - zepto 10y ago
      Generally understanding other people's points of view makes them seem less stupid, not more so. You might be confusing people's opinions with their points of view.

tn13 10y ago

I am not worried about my neighbors judging me. I am worried about governmental agencies paying me visit. It rarely matters if people are racist towards me, it makes big difference if the cops treat me differently because of my skin color. Rules of the game (in theory and practice) as a bigger impact on parenting. I take my kids to India just so that they can travel alone, play alone, climb trees and sit on the front seats etc.

wolfgke 10y ago

> Being a parent is a no-win scenario in the eyes of public perception. The only winning move is not to play (in other words: not give birth to children).

projektir 10y ago

> There's a big problem here: Parents are judged poorly no matter how they oversee their children. You watch over your children and make sure they're safe and supported? You're a helicopter parent. Took your eyes off your child for five seconds and he jumped into a cage with a gorrilla at the zoo? You're a horrible neglectful mother. Spoke to the principal of your kid's school concerning a bully or about putting some padding over the concrete at the playground? You're creating a "safe space" for your child and raising them to be a sissy. Being a parent is a no-win scenario in the eyes of public perception. Replace "parents" with "people" and "oversee their children" with "live", and you get the problem on the higher level.

taneq 10y ago
True, but the special case of "being responsible for the wellbeing of another person while simultaneously needing to respect their autonomy to some degree" is significantly more fraught than just "people gonna judge how you live". This also applies to other situations, like the government's role in dealing with indigenous populations. The government can't force them to attend school, study, work, create healthy family environments, moderate substance use etc. because that impinges on their rights. The government is then taken to task for the indigenous population's lack of education and employment, their living conditions, problems with substance abuse, and so on. There's no way to win.

ddingus 10y ago

Let them judge. I did. Gave two shits too. Result: my kids did a lot of stuff that I also did, and I did a bunch of it with them too. Might as well. My parents were hands off to a high degree. I value this extremely highly. I balanced it by sharing the good stuff, while allowing them to be kids and roam, explore. I also encouraged them to bring it back to me. Share. If it somehow goes bad, you want us and our kids. Those judging? Left as exercise for the reader. Social media these days... Let's just say I curate what I share, and it's not much, and for sure not the good stuff. And the kids knew the rule too. Lots of stuff doesn't go on social media. Out in the woods, built lean to, fire, explored the hills, made a small dam, cooked what we killed? FB: Oh, just an action movie with Dad. Harsh, I know. But, I also know the value of those experiences too.

axonic 10y ago

Judgement of parenting from a single event is arbitrary at best and criminal at worst. Child Protection Services investigated my mother and accused her of burning me with a cigarette (it was a mosquito bite, I'm allergic to their anticoagulant) but years later turned me in to her custody, told me 'back in my day' stories and treated me as a trouble making 'runaway' after witnesses described her physically attacking me with punches, threatening me with a handgun, and swinging a stoneware coffee mug at my head. My great grandmother however was kind, had 14 kids, 7 survived. That was farm life then... I wonder how she'd have been judged today? Investigated for abuse, neglect, or murder? My mother's A-OK though apparently. We don't speak.