4 ms·

How can T-Mobile dictate what quality video you get?

by runeb 10y ago

toomuchtodo 10y ago
By not opting out of "BingeOn", they don't count 480p content or below towards your data cap. If you opt out, it counts against your data usage. It encourages users to only use as much data that's necessary to view a streaming video at the maximum quality most mobile devices support (Source IP block is used to determine content zero rating). I'm a realistic T-Mobile user for ~16 years, have no problem with their network management practices, and will happily hand over my $140/month for 4 lines until the end of time. Its not their fault its a prisoner's dilemma where all carriers are offering "unlimited" data usage, but they all must perform different types of network management due to wireless spectrum being a limited resource.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  Actually, almost everyone got rid of unlimited, and had fair, net neutral data tiers. And then T-Mobile's deceptive marketing led everyone to follow suit. I understand that as a 16 year user, you're inclined to defend them, but this whole current trend was T-Mobile's idea. T-Mobile started zero rating certain types of apps, throttling people's video traffic, etc. "Uncarrier" is a whole new field of net neutrality violates T-Mobile pioneered.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    I don't believe in net neutrality on wireless spectrum. Not all bits are created equally. If you don't like the policy, there are at least three other national carriers to choose from. I'm exhausted from a vocal minority thinking their opinion matters in this regard. The market has spoken, and does not care.
    - rifung 10y ago
      Sorry since I know you're exhausted already but can you share why you think not all bits are created equally? I always thought it was bizarre how companies charge for tethering, especially after data caps were introduced. Aren't they all the same to the carrier?
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        > but can you share why you think not all bits are created equally? Streaming video is different than the tool who decides he's going to torrent tens of GBs over their cellular connection. You're streaming 780p or 1080p content to a device that can't display the additional resolution over 480p? You've just wasted that bandwidth on the local tower (which matters if you're in urban areas). (Spotify does this right in the sense that it'll cache music locally, even if you have not elected to download your playlists) > I always thought it was bizarre how companies charge for tethering, especially after data caps were introduced. Aren't they all the same to the carrier? Non-mobile devices can generate a higher volume of data than a mobile device alone. You can go eat at an all-you-can-eat buffet, but they don't let you bring a wheelbarrow with. Don't take my word for it though: http://twinprime.com/lte-has-slowed-by-50-in-the-us/ http://twinprime.com/lte-has-slowed-by-50-in-the-us/ "While the US LTE capacity has remained relatively constant over the last 12 months, the number of users, as well as the bandwidth consumed per user via video and music streaming, video calls, and real-time entertainment like Netflix has resulted in an overall slowdown of LTE across the network. The reverse effect is observed in new regions like South America, or Eastern Europe. As these areas begin to come online to 4G networks they experience impressive speeds due to the lack of initial subscribers. Eventually, their performance slows as carriers sign up more 4G customers and the LTE resources become more scarce as a result."
        Dylan16807 10y ago
        > a device that can't display the additional resolution over 480p What a weird scenario. The current trend is for phones to have more resolution than many desktops.
        ocdtrekkie 10y ago
        - Most phones are 1080p or better in this day and age. They can absolutely display HD resolution. And, of course, many tablets have even better screens, including tablets with LTE connectivity. - Cell carriers should want you to tether on a non-unlimited plan. The more you tether, the more you pay them for data usage! The idea that tethering should cost extra on tiered data is silly, because it's the ability to run up a bigger bill anyways. (As a note, I know Verizon does not charge extra for tethering, I didn't think any tiered data providers still did.) - Fundamentally, if people are using more LTE on tiered data, they are paying carriers more, so carriers have more money to spend on increasing capacity on our LTE networks. Carriers should want users to spend as much net neutral data is humanly possible.
  - jshevek 10y ago
    > And then T-Mobile's deceptive marketing led everyone to follow suit. Yes. Legere has a cult following which T-Mobile has leveraged these last few years to distract from some anti-consumer and anti-social maneuvers.
dawnerd 10y ago
I asked this same thing and never got a straight answer. You could download a zip file that looked like a video and it would throttle. In their minds everyone uses adaptive streaming so if they cap "video like files" at 1.5ish Mbps then the quality would bump down.
drbawb 10y ago
As I understand it they're ultimately just doing traffic shaping. If the edge of their network thinks you're downloading a video stream they'll throttle the throughput to ~3.5Mbps. This is approximately equivalent to a 480p stream, so intelligent streaming apps (e.g: Netflix, YouTube, et al.) will notice this and downgrade the quality to avoid buffer stalls. On their new plan "T-Mobile One" this behavior is always on unless you opt out by purchasing an "HD Day Pass." (They upsell you on an add-on that gives you "free HD Day Passes" but you still have to activate them every day.) On their previous plan "Simple Choice" the network behaves essentially the same, but it was behind a toggle called on your billing profile called "BingeON" whereby if it was shaping your traffic it would zero-rate it on your bill. --- One thing I'm not sure about is how they do traffic shaping in the face of transmitting the stream over HTTPS/TLS, perhaps it's just a whitelist of IPs for known services? (I know businesses get away with shaping/monitoring TLS traffic by using MITM proxies on the edge of the network; but that assumes control of the certificate truststore on your network's endpoints, which T-Mobile doesn't have.)
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  3.5Mbps? That's actually quite a lot; you can get solid 720p at that speed. Or watch any twitch stream at max quality.
  - jotato 10y ago
    If I recall, Youtube suggests an upload speed of 2500kb for 720P streams

How can T-Mobile dictate what quality video you get?

by runeb 10y ago

How can T-Mobile dictate what quality video you get?

By not opting out of "BingeOn", they don't count 480p content or below towards your data cap. If you opt out, it counts against your data usage. It encourages users to only use as much data that's necessary to view a streaming video at the maximum quality most mobile devices support (Source IP block is used to determine content zero rating). I'm a realistic T-Mobile user for ~16 years, have no problem with their network management practices, and will happily hand over my $140/month for 4 lines until the end of time. Its not their fault its a prisoner's dilemma where all carriers are offering "unlimited" data usage, but they all must perform different types of network management due to wireless spectrum being a limited resource.

ocdtrekkie 10y ago
Actually, almost everyone got rid of unlimited, and had fair, net neutral data tiers. And then T-Mobile's deceptive marketing led everyone to follow suit. I understand that as a 16 year user, you're inclined to defend them, but this whole current trend was T-Mobile's idea. T-Mobile started zero rating certain types of apps, throttling people's video traffic, etc. "Uncarrier" is a whole new field of net neutrality violates T-Mobile pioneered.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  I don't believe in net neutrality on wireless spectrum. Not all bits are created equally. If you don't like the policy, there are at least three other national carriers to choose from. I'm exhausted from a vocal minority thinking their opinion matters in this regard. The market has spoken, and does not care.
  - rifung 10y ago
    Sorry since I know you're exhausted already but can you share why you think not all bits are created equally? I always thought it was bizarre how companies charge for tethering, especially after data caps were introduced. Aren't they all the same to the carrier?
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      > but can you share why you think not all bits are created equally? Streaming video is different than the tool who decides he's going to torrent tens of GBs over their cellular connection. You're streaming 780p or 1080p content to a device that can't display the additional resolution over 480p? You've just wasted that bandwidth on the local tower (which matters if you're in urban areas). (Spotify does this right in the sense that it'll cache music locally, even if you have not elected to download your playlists) > I always thought it was bizarre how companies charge for tethering, especially after data caps were introduced. Aren't they all the same to the carrier? Non-mobile devices can generate a higher volume of data than a mobile device alone. You can go eat at an all-you-can-eat buffet, but they don't let you bring a wheelbarrow with. Don't take my word for it though: http://twinprime.com/lte-has-slowed-by-50-in-the-us/ http://twinprime.com/lte-has-slowed-by-50-in-the-us/ "While the US LTE capacity has remained relatively constant over the last 12 months, the number of users, as well as the bandwidth consumed per user via video and music streaming, video calls, and real-time entertainment like Netflix has resulted in an overall slowdown of LTE across the network. The reverse effect is observed in new regions like South America, or Eastern Europe. As these areas begin to come online to 4G networks they experience impressive speeds due to the lack of initial subscribers. Eventually, their performance slows as carriers sign up more 4G customers and the LTE resources become more scarce as a result."
      - Dylan16807 10y ago
        > a device that can't display the additional resolution over 480p What a weird scenario. The current trend is for phones to have more resolution than many desktops.
      - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
        - Most phones are 1080p or better in this day and age. They can absolutely display HD resolution. And, of course, many tablets have even better screens, including tablets with LTE connectivity. - Cell carriers should want you to tether on a non-unlimited plan. The more you tether, the more you pay them for data usage! The idea that tethering should cost extra on tiered data is silly, because it's the ability to run up a bigger bill anyways. (As a note, I know Verizon does not charge extra for tethering, I didn't think any tiered data providers still did.) - Fundamentally, if people are using more LTE on tiered data, they are paying carriers more, so carriers have more money to spend on increasing capacity on our LTE networks. Carriers should want users to spend as much net neutral data is humanly possible.
- jshevek 10y ago
  > And then T-Mobile's deceptive marketing led everyone to follow suit. Yes. Legere has a cult following which T-Mobile has leveraged these last few years to distract from some anti-consumer and anti-social maneuvers.

dawnerd 10y ago

I asked this same thing and never got a straight answer. You could download a zip file that looked like a video and it would throttle. In their minds everyone uses adaptive streaming so if they cap "video like files" at 1.5ish Mbps then the quality would bump down.

drbawb 10y ago

As I understand it they're ultimately just doing traffic shaping. If the edge of their network thinks you're downloading a video stream they'll throttle the throughput to ~3.5Mbps. This is approximately equivalent to a 480p stream, so intelligent streaming apps (e.g: Netflix, YouTube, et al.) will notice this and downgrade the quality to avoid buffer stalls. On their new plan "T-Mobile One" this behavior is always on unless you opt out by purchasing an "HD Day Pass." (They upsell you on an add-on that gives you "free HD Day Passes" but you still have to activate them every day.) On their previous plan "Simple Choice" the network behaves essentially the same, but it was behind a toggle called on your billing profile called "BingeON" whereby if it was shaping your traffic it would zero-rate it on your bill. --- One thing I'm not sure about is how they do traffic shaping in the face of transmitting the stream over HTTPS/TLS, perhaps it's just a whitelist of IPs for known services? (I know businesses get away with shaping/monitoring TLS traffic by using MITM proxies on the edge of the network; but that assumes control of the certificate truststore on your network's endpoints, which T-Mobile doesn't have.)

Dylan16807 10y ago
3.5Mbps? That's actually quite a lot; you can get solid 720p at that speed. Or watch any twitch stream at max quality.
- jotato 10y ago
  If I recall, Youtube suggests an upload speed of 2500kb for 720P streams