9 ms·

I'm a little saddened to see the direction T-Mobile is headed with their plans. When I switched to Project Fi last year my T-Mobile unlimited plan was $70/mo. T

by drbawb 10y ago

I'm a little saddened to see the direction T-Mobile is headed with their plans. When I switched to Project Fi last year my T-Mobile unlimited plan was $70/mo. That included actual HD video, and LTE tethering. Now the equivalent plan (T-Mobile One+) is $90/mo, and that just gets you "unlimited HD day passes" which you have to remember to toggle every day if you want video that isn't 480p. What's even scarier to me is that they're not alone. Sprint has opted for a nearly identical pricing structure w/ "Unlimited Freedom" and "Unlimited Freedom Premium." As an aside: the idea of "premium" freedom makes me giggle, I'd love to have a beer with the marketing exec that came up with that mouthful.

DigitalJack 10y ago
As an aside: the idea of "premium" freedom makes me giggle, I'd love to have a beer with the marketing exec that came up with that mouthful. Unlimited Freedom Premium would be a good name for a beer itself ;)
runeb 10y ago
How can T-Mobile dictate what quality video you get?
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  By not opting out of "BingeOn", they don't count 480p content or below towards your data cap. If you opt out, it counts against your data usage. It encourages users to only use as much data that's necessary to view a streaming video at the maximum quality most mobile devices support (Source IP block is used to determine content zero rating). I'm a realistic T-Mobile user for ~16 years, have no problem with their network management practices, and will happily hand over my $140/month for 4 lines until the end of time. Its not their fault its a prisoner's dilemma where all carriers are offering "unlimited" data usage, but they all must perform different types of network management due to wireless spectrum being a limited resource.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    Actually, almost everyone got rid of unlimited, and had fair, net neutral data tiers. And then T-Mobile's deceptive marketing led everyone to follow suit. I understand that as a 16 year user, you're inclined to defend them, but this whole current trend was T-Mobile's idea. T-Mobile started zero rating certain types of apps, throttling people's video traffic, etc. "Uncarrier" is a whole new field of net neutrality violates T-Mobile pioneered.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      I don't believe in net neutrality on wireless spectrum. Not all bits are created equally. If you don't like the policy, there are at least three other national carriers to choose from. I'm exhausted from a vocal minority thinking their opinion matters in this regard. The market has spoken, and does not care.
      - rifung 10y ago
        Sorry since I know you're exhausted already but can you share why you think not all bits are created equally? I always thought it was bizarre how companies charge for tethering, especially after data caps were introduced. Aren't they all the same to the carrier?
        toomuchtodo 10y ago
        > but can you share why you think not all bits are created equally? Streaming video is different than the tool who decides he's going to torrent tens of GBs over their cellular connection. You're streaming 780p or 1080p content to a device that can't display the additional resolution over 480p? You've just wasted that bandwidth on the local tower (which matters if you're in urban areas). (Spotify does this right in the sense that it'll cache music locally, even if you have not elected to download your playlists) > I always thought it was bizarre how companies charge for tethering, especially after data caps were introduced. Aren't they all the same to the carrier? Non-mobile devices can generate a higher volume of data than a mobile device alone. You can go eat at an all-you-can-eat buffet, but they don't let you bring a wheelbarrow with. Don't take my word for it though: http://twinprime.com/lte-has-slowed-by-50-in-the-us/ http://twinprime.com/lte-has-slowed-by-50-in-the-us/ "While the US LTE capacity has remained relatively constant over the last 12 months, the number of users, as well as the bandwidth consumed per user via video and music streaming, video calls, and real-time entertainment like Netflix has resulted in an overall slowdown of LTE across the network. The reverse effect is observed in new regions like South America, or Eastern Europe. As these areas begin to come online to 4G networks they experience impressive speeds due to the lack of initial subscribers. Eventually, their performance slows as carriers sign up more 4G customers and the LTE resources become more scarce as a result."
- dawnerd 10y ago
  I asked this same thing and never got a straight answer. You could download a zip file that looked like a video and it would throttle. In their minds everyone uses adaptive streaming so if they cap "video like files" at 1.5ish Mbps then the quality would bump down.
- drbawb 10y ago
  As I understand it they're ultimately just doing traffic shaping. If the edge of their network thinks you're downloading a video stream they'll throttle the throughput to ~3.5Mbps. This is approximately equivalent to a 480p stream, so intelligent streaming apps (e.g: Netflix, YouTube, et al.) will notice this and downgrade the quality to avoid buffer stalls. On their new plan "T-Mobile One" this behavior is always on unless you opt out by purchasing an "HD Day Pass." (They upsell you on an add-on that gives you "free HD Day Passes" but you still have to activate them every day.) On their previous plan "Simple Choice" the network behaves essentially the same, but it was behind a toggle called on your billing profile called "BingeON" whereby if it was shaping your traffic it would zero-rate it on your bill. --- One thing I'm not sure about is how they do traffic shaping in the face of transmitting the stream over HTTPS/TLS, perhaps it's just a whitelist of IPs for known services? (I know businesses get away with shaping/monitoring TLS traffic by using MITM proxies on the edge of the network; but that assumes control of the certificate truststore on your network's endpoints, which T-Mobile doesn't have.)
  - Dylan16807 10y ago
    3.5Mbps? That's actually quite a lot; you can get solid 720p at that speed. Or watch any twitch stream at max quality.
    - jotato 10y ago
      If I recall, Youtube suggests an upload speed of 2500kb for 720P streams
pyrophane 10y ago
Yea, the mobile industry seems to have gone through a a few distinct phases with respect to their data pricing: 1. Unlimited data. Data isn't worth anything, just give it away. 2. Tiered data. No one talks on the phone any longer. It's all about data now. We'll charge them per GB to use it! 3. Unlimited everything with extras. Ok, most people are actually not using that much mobile data. Wifi is all over the place, and when given the option of paying more or constraining their mobile data usage, most people opt for the latter. Let's start selling them premium features instead.
codemac 10y ago
My inability to "script" my phone is really starting to hinder my hacker-ness. This seems like something you could build into your phone. Every day when you first interact with your phone, have tasker or something else fire off a job that auto-enables your unlimited hd day passes. Does anyone have good introduction documentation to either: writing scripts for tasker, or writing your own android applications when you know ZERO java?
- yellowapple 10y ago
  > writing your own android applications when you know ZERO java? Do you know any programming languages? In addition to non-Java JVM-based languages (like Clojure and JRuby), which should work in theory (and in some cases do work in practice, like with Ruboto), there's also stuff like Cordova (though I don't know if Cordova can do what you're looking to do).
- emidln 10y ago
  Scripting Layer 4 Android provides a reasonable facade for a lot of APIs that are available to a ton of languages via a socket. It has out of the box support for perl and python as well as some other languages. [1] https://github.com/damonkohler/sl4a https://github.com/damonkohler/sl4a
  - icebraining 10y ago
    And you can use Tasker to launch a sl4a action every day, or when you connect to a certain network, etc.
- linkregister 10y ago
  Microsoft recently dropped support for Onyx (https://onx.ms https://onx.ms), a scripting app allowing developers to write Javascript for a simplified Android API. This doesn't help you; I just wanted to whine about another great service being shut down.
jesusshreds 10y ago
I'll just leave this here: https://boingboing.net/2016/09/22/i-have-found-a-secret-tunnel-t.html https://boingboing.net/2016/09/22/i-have-found-a-secret-tunn...
- icelancer 10y ago
  Huh. Thanks for this. How are the speeds in major cities?
  - huehehue 10y ago
    "[...] 4G/LTE bandwidth on Sprint's network." Sprint claims an average of 3-6 Mbps[1] [1] https://shop2.sprint.com/en/stores/popups/4G_coverage_popup.shtml https://shop2.sprint.com/en/stores/popups/4G_coverage_popup....
    - jlarocco 10y ago
      I wouldn't trust that page. I checked my apartment and it's shown solidly inside a 4G LTE coverage area. In reality, I'm lucky to get 2 bars of 3G, and I avoid talking on the phone because it'll drop the call.
      - oh_sigh 10y ago
        What's your connection like outside? There can be 4G coverage, but if you live in a faraday cage, it won't do you much good.
        takingflac 10y ago
        This is why I wish more cell phones could take advantage of VoiP using Wifi. Having the option to use wifi for calls is nice if you have terrible cell signal but great wifi thanks to the faraday cage you live in.
      - lightedman 10y ago
        Does your apartment have stucco? If so, then you're living inside a giant faraday cage and that explains everything. I live in an apartment with stucco. I need to go outside to get past one bar (and once outside, it's a full 5 bars.)

by drbawb 10y ago

DigitalJack 10y ago

As an aside: the idea of "premium" freedom makes me giggle, I'd love to have a beer with the marketing exec that came up with that mouthful. Unlimited Freedom Premium would be a good name for a beer itself ;)

runeb 10y ago

How can T-Mobile dictate what quality video you get?

toomuchtodo 10y ago
By not opting out of "BingeOn", they don't count 480p content or below towards your data cap. If you opt out, it counts against your data usage. It encourages users to only use as much data that's necessary to view a streaming video at the maximum quality most mobile devices support (Source IP block is used to determine content zero rating). I'm a realistic T-Mobile user for ~16 years, have no problem with their network management practices, and will happily hand over my $140/month for 4 lines until the end of time. Its not their fault its a prisoner's dilemma where all carriers are offering "unlimited" data usage, but they all must perform different types of network management due to wireless spectrum being a limited resource.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  Actually, almost everyone got rid of unlimited, and had fair, net neutral data tiers. And then T-Mobile's deceptive marketing led everyone to follow suit. I understand that as a 16 year user, you're inclined to defend them, but this whole current trend was T-Mobile's idea. T-Mobile started zero rating certain types of apps, throttling people's video traffic, etc. "Uncarrier" is a whole new field of net neutrality violates T-Mobile pioneered.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    I don't believe in net neutrality on wireless spectrum. Not all bits are created equally. If you don't like the policy, there are at least three other national carriers to choose from. I'm exhausted from a vocal minority thinking their opinion matters in this regard. The market has spoken, and does not care.
    - rifung 10y ago
      Sorry since I know you're exhausted already but can you share why you think not all bits are created equally? I always thought it was bizarre how companies charge for tethering, especially after data caps were introduced. Aren't they all the same to the carrier?
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        > but can you share why you think not all bits are created equally? Streaming video is different than the tool who decides he's going to torrent tens of GBs over their cellular connection. You're streaming 780p or 1080p content to a device that can't display the additional resolution over 480p? You've just wasted that bandwidth on the local tower (which matters if you're in urban areas). (Spotify does this right in the sense that it'll cache music locally, even if you have not elected to download your playlists) > I always thought it was bizarre how companies charge for tethering, especially after data caps were introduced. Aren't they all the same to the carrier? Non-mobile devices can generate a higher volume of data than a mobile device alone. You can go eat at an all-you-can-eat buffet, but they don't let you bring a wheelbarrow with. Don't take my word for it though: http://twinprime.com/lte-has-slowed-by-50-in-the-us/ http://twinprime.com/lte-has-slowed-by-50-in-the-us/ "While the US LTE capacity has remained relatively constant over the last 12 months, the number of users, as well as the bandwidth consumed per user via video and music streaming, video calls, and real-time entertainment like Netflix has resulted in an overall slowdown of LTE across the network. The reverse effect is observed in new regions like South America, or Eastern Europe. As these areas begin to come online to 4G networks they experience impressive speeds due to the lack of initial subscribers. Eventually, their performance slows as carriers sign up more 4G customers and the LTE resources become more scarce as a result."
dawnerd 10y ago
I asked this same thing and never got a straight answer. You could download a zip file that looked like a video and it would throttle. In their minds everyone uses adaptive streaming so if they cap "video like files" at 1.5ish Mbps then the quality would bump down.
drbawb 10y ago
As I understand it they're ultimately just doing traffic shaping. If the edge of their network thinks you're downloading a video stream they'll throttle the throughput to ~3.5Mbps. This is approximately equivalent to a 480p stream, so intelligent streaming apps (e.g: Netflix, YouTube, et al.) will notice this and downgrade the quality to avoid buffer stalls. On their new plan "T-Mobile One" this behavior is always on unless you opt out by purchasing an "HD Day Pass." (They upsell you on an add-on that gives you "free HD Day Passes" but you still have to activate them every day.) On their previous plan "Simple Choice" the network behaves essentially the same, but it was behind a toggle called on your billing profile called "BingeON" whereby if it was shaping your traffic it would zero-rate it on your bill. --- One thing I'm not sure about is how they do traffic shaping in the face of transmitting the stream over HTTPS/TLS, perhaps it's just a whitelist of IPs for known services? (I know businesses get away with shaping/monitoring TLS traffic by using MITM proxies on the edge of the network; but that assumes control of the certificate truststore on your network's endpoints, which T-Mobile doesn't have.)
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  3.5Mbps? That's actually quite a lot; you can get solid 720p at that speed. Or watch any twitch stream at max quality.
  - jotato 10y ago
    If I recall, Youtube suggests an upload speed of 2500kb for 720P streams

pyrophane 10y ago

Yea, the mobile industry seems to have gone through a a few distinct phases with respect to their data pricing: 1. Unlimited data. Data isn't worth anything, just give it away. 2. Tiered data. No one talks on the phone any longer. It's all about data now. We'll charge them per GB to use it! 3. Unlimited everything with extras. Ok, most people are actually not using that much mobile data. Wifi is all over the place, and when given the option of paying more or constraining their mobile data usage, most people opt for the latter. Let's start selling them premium features instead.

codemac 10y ago

My inability to "script" my phone is really starting to hinder my hacker-ness. This seems like something you could build into your phone. Every day when you first interact with your phone, have tasker or something else fire off a job that auto-enables your unlimited hd day passes. Does anyone have good introduction documentation to either: writing scripts for tasker, or writing your own android applications when you know ZERO java?

yellowapple 10y ago
> writing your own android applications when you know ZERO java? Do you know any programming languages? In addition to non-Java JVM-based languages (like Clojure and JRuby), which should work in theory (and in some cases do work in practice, like with Ruboto), there's also stuff like Cordova (though I don't know if Cordova can do what you're looking to do).
emidln 10y ago
Scripting Layer 4 Android provides a reasonable facade for a lot of APIs that are available to a ton of languages via a socket. It has out of the box support for perl and python as well as some other languages. [1] https://github.com/damonkohler/sl4a https://github.com/damonkohler/sl4a
- icebraining 10y ago
  And you can use Tasker to launch a sl4a action every day, or when you connect to a certain network, etc.
linkregister 10y ago
Microsoft recently dropped support for Onyx (https://onx.ms https://onx.ms), a scripting app allowing developers to write Javascript for a simplified Android API. This doesn't help you; I just wanted to whine about another great service being shut down.

jesusshreds 10y ago

I'll just leave this here: https://boingboing.net/2016/09/22/i-have-found-a-secret-tunnel-t.html https://boingboing.net/2016/09/22/i-have-found-a-secret-tunn...

icelancer 10y ago
Huh. Thanks for this. How are the speeds in major cities?
- huehehue 10y ago
  "[...] 4G/LTE bandwidth on Sprint's network." Sprint claims an average of 3-6 Mbps[1] [1] https://shop2.sprint.com/en/stores/popups/4G_coverage_popup.shtml https://shop2.sprint.com/en/stores/popups/4G_coverage_popup....
  - jlarocco 10y ago
    I wouldn't trust that page. I checked my apartment and it's shown solidly inside a 4G LTE coverage area. In reality, I'm lucky to get 2 bars of 3G, and I avoid talking on the phone because it'll drop the call.
    - oh_sigh 10y ago
      What's your connection like outside? There can be 4G coverage, but if you live in a faraday cage, it won't do you much good.
      - takingflac 10y ago
        This is why I wish more cell phones could take advantage of VoiP using Wifi. Having the option to use wifi for calls is nice if you have terrible cell signal but great wifi thanks to the faraday cage you live in.
    - lightedman 10y ago
      Does your apartment have stucco? If so, then you're living inside a giant faraday cage and that explains everything. I live in an apartment with stucco. I need to go outside to get past one bar (and once outside, it's a full 5 bars.)