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Driving on electricity is cheaper than gas in all 50 states

deleted 10y ago
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msandford 10y ago
So is owning a house outright instead of paying a mortgage every month. But you gotta cough up the cash up-front. Clearly not everyone can swing that.
- deelowe 10y ago
  Pedantic: That's actually not true if you consider the time value of money and current prime mortgage rates.
  - msandford 10y ago
    That's absolutely fair, but a Tesla is $80k and the note payment on $80k is at least $1k/mo. A reasonable note payment on a gasoline car is $300/mo and you can buy _a lot_ of gasoline or diesel for $700/mo, before you put a single electron into your Tesla. Sure there are ostensibly other EVs out there. But it's basically a fun car to drive (Tesla) or a total bummer (Leaf or Volt). I've got something in between (turbo 4cyl) for half the cost of a Tesla per month, fuel included. Perhaps once the Tesla is paid off it gets super cheap to drive, but about that time you'll need a new battery pack I'd suspect. So in a way a Tesla is a $60k car with a $20k prepaid fuel card. It's cool, don't get me wrong. But unless you're willing to bury your head in the economic sand in a pretty serious way, it's not somehow more affordable than a car based on a traditional ICE.
- vvanders 10y ago
  Sure but costs are rapidly dropping for EVs while house prices continue to climb. I think we're going to see some really interesting things over the next 5-7 years as initial prices come down and operating costs stay low. It's going to squeeze the ICE market from both ends which could put them in a really tough position. I'm reminded of the HDTV market about ~10 years ago when it seems that prices were astronomical. Now you can get a 4k TV for under $300.
  - sn0v 10y ago
    Out of curiosity, what 4k TV model is this? (under 300)
    - greendragon 10y ago
      Seiki 4ks have been sub 300 for a while, at least when they're on sale. (e.g. I've been using https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RBA9MOC/ref=psdc_6459737011_t3_B00BXF7I9M https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RBA9MOC/ref=psdc_6459737011_t3_... for over a year as a monitor after applying a beta firmware patch to get rid of the terrible latency. I got it for $298.)
    - pixl97 10y ago
      Walmart does carry a few of them https://www.walmart.com/browse/electronics/4k-ultra-hdtvs/3944_1060825_1180168 https://www.walmart.com/browse/electronics/4k-ultra-hdtvs/39... Not saying you should buy from them though.
  - msandford 10y ago
    > I'm reminded of the HDTV market about ~10 years ago when it seems that prices were astronomical. Now you can get a 4k TV for under $300. I'll bite. Cars aren't 90% electronics, but TVs are. If you bought a BMW with everything but the drivetrain, it'd still cost a whole pile of money. Same with a Tesla. Sure the drivetrain might cost 20%-30% of the car's retail price, but even if you bring that to $0 you absolutely haven't made the car 90% cheaper for 5x the product. Just because electronics have a _huge_ NRE (non-recurring engineering) cost and fairly trivial per-unit costs (like software) doesn't mean that the whole world works that way. Metal still costs real money because it takes energy to make/recycle, form, etc.
deelowe 10y ago
This article seems disingenuous. What matters is total cost of ownership. Which is unfortunately, because there are several compelling cases now where owning an EV is cheaper than a comparable ICE.
- jws 10y ago
  Electric vehicles can be more expensive than comparable gas cars up front. The differences in monthly car payments is fixed and easy to understand. … For gas car buyers, fuel costs are familiar and expected. But how does electricity pricing compare to gas costs? It’s less intuitive to figure out for most of us. Hardly disingenuous, they hit that in the 2nd paragraph and explain this article is about the differences in operating costs.
  - CalChris 10y ago
    Operating costs. That’s $60 per month saved on fuel alone — not including lower maintenance costs, fewer or no oil changes, and time saved in states that allow EV drivers to use the carpool lane. My Leaf replaced a high maintenance out of warranty Mercedes.
kylec 10y ago
I ran the numbers for my father a few months ago and it was basically even for him: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12379662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12379662
blacksmith_tb 10y ago
As I am eagerly awaiting delivery of a 2017 Prius Prime plug-in hybrid in their #1 state Oregon, this is all good news. However, as I'm switching from an old diesel VW, I also can't help but notice these numbers are very literally electric vs. gas, and look like they wouldn't pencil out against a diesel sedan. That said, the contrast there is between belching soot out vs. clean air, so hard to argue on that front.
- relaytheurgency 10y ago
  How is the electricity in Oregon generated? I wonder what the carbon footprint of running an electric vehicle on coal is, especially when you include mining Lithium etc.
  - dver23 10y ago
    Mostly Hydro, Nat gas and renewable. Almost no coal.
    - agermanov 10y ago
      This says different: https://www.oregon.gov/energy/pages/oregons_electric_power_mix.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/energy/pages/oregons_electric_power_m... 33.65% is coal.
mattmanser 10y ago
Quite a few UK homes were fitted with electric storage heaters because electricity was cheap in the evenings. Now they are extremely expensive, massively more expensive than normal gas (the other kind) central heating. Is the price of US domestic electricity going to stay at the present price?
- Declanomous 10y ago
  It kind of depends. I live in Illinois, and I pay about 12 cents per KWH. A huge proportion of the baseload is generated by nuclear power in Illinois, which is incredibly inexpensive. Peaking power is provided with fossil fuels, such as natural gas, which is much, much more expensive. It takes a long time to ramp up or down nuclear plants, but the utility is pretty good at matching demand, so electricity remains inexpensive as a whole. The question of whether our power will continue to be inexpensive is brought up often. The nuclear plants are slowly being decommissioned, and there are vocal factions against all of the replacement options. The barriers to constructing a new nuclear plant are substantial, but people are also opposed to the construction of coal plants as well. There is a strong movement for renewable power generation. Illinois is a great area to generate wind energy, but wind is more expensive than nuclear and also requires a greater amount of peaking plants because of the variable nature of the wind, etc. All those extra peaking plants cost a lot of money, even if they sit idle 99% of the time. Illinois is way too flat for hydroelectric, but we have a few pumped hydro storage facilities. They aren't very large, and a few of the pumped hydro facilities are only designed to consume power to use up extra baseload power when the supply is expected to outstrip demand.
  - caf 10y ago
    and a few of the pumped hydro facilities are only designed to consume power to use up extra baseload power when the supply is expected to outstrip demand. That doesn't seem right - if you want to temporarily curb the output of a thermal power station (eg. nuclear or coal) without actually shutting down units, you can just bypass some steam around the turbines.
    - deleted 10y ago
thoughtsimple 10y ago
Running the numbers. I live in Massachusetts and sure enough, that is one of the bottom 10 states. My Honda CRZ hybrid gets about 40 mpg average over the year. The price of gas, price per kWh and the number of miles are about right. Gas: 12282 miles @ $2.14/g and 40 mpg is $657. Electric: 12282 miles @ $0.191/kWh and Tesla P85 85kWh 285 mile range is 3.35 miles/kWh for $700. Basically a wash in a state ranked as 47th with a decently high mpg car. Price difference on the car is substantial though. $66,000 vs $23,000.
draker 10y ago
The numbers used seem skewed in favor of promoting their product rather than a real comparison. The number used for MPG is 21.4 which is the "Average U.S. light duty vehicle fuel efficiency". In addition to passenger cars the light duty vehicle class includes SUVs and pickups (including 1/2 ton models such as the Silverado, F-150). At this time I don't believe there are any electric vehicles that would compete with a 1/2 ton pickup in terms of payload or towing. It would seem the Passenger Car fuel economy would be the most accurate number to use; which is 36.4 MPG. They do acknowledge this number at the end of the post: >The average EPA fuel economy of passenger cars (not counting trucks) was 36.4 miles per gallon in 2014. Using that number puts gas and electric cars on a more even playing field. Though doing so makes electricity only cheaper in 43/50 states and the savings is not nearly as compelling as the figures from the 21.4 MPG comparison. TL;DR: this is is more of a clickbait product promotion article than a real comparison
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- sokoloff 10y ago
  We have a Nissan LEAF and a Honda CR-V as our two family cars. We do about 4K miles/yr on the LEAF and 5K miles/yr on the CR-V. Because both cars are used for fairly short average trip lengths, mostly in the city, the LEAF gets a little over 4 miles/kWh and the CR-V about 22 miles per gallon. That makes for about $0.05/mile for the LEAF (at MA's insane electric rates) and $0.10/mile for the CR-V, for fuel/power only. Electric cars are quite good (as compared to ICE) on the city drive cycle. The CR-V as a modestly sized, Civic-chassis/SUV-body is quite comparable to the LEAF. After incentives, the LEAF is cheaper than a new CR-V (though we bought our CR-V very well used).
- wtallis 10y ago
  Most SUVs and pickups get a lot of use for things like commuting where a passenger car would suffice, because it's often still cheaper than buying another car for the commute. Comparing against the light duty vehicle efficiency number is probably going a little too far since many trucks do actually get significant use as trucks, but the passenger car efficiency number definitely understates how much fuel is burned for things like commuting.
Cshelton 10y ago
Can confirm, Tesla Owner. I guess living in Texas as well, which has dirt cheap/free electricity. Yes, I have a plan that I pay $0.00/KwH between 8pm and 5am. I charge it during those hours.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  Have you run the math to see if a PowerWall would make sense if you can charge for free at night?
  - jburgess777 10y ago
    Even if you can charge for free the batteries only have a limited number of charge cycles so you have to pay for the wear and tear on the batteries. Last I heard the economics were pretty close to neutral for the US: From http://www.catalyticengineering.com/top-ten-facts-about-teslas-350kwh-powerwall-battery/ http://www.catalyticengineering.com/top-ten-facts-about-tesl... "So revenue is $1.66 x 183 days x 10 years = $3,000. You’ll just about recoup the cost of the product, but you won’t profit because of two factors – the cost of inverter and installation, and the time value of money. We’re in a low-interest environment, but setting aside $7,000 today to make back $3,000 over 10 years still leaves you down $4,000 – not a very good deal."
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      Energy storage is eligible for the 30% tax credit the same as a solar panel install on your roof. So knock 30% off the total install cost ($4500 total - 30% = $3150).
  - Cshelton 10y ago
    Not yet. I haven't even bothered as the current gen powerwall is pretty much not for sale... not many people actually got them. And also they are announcing PowerWall 2.0 this month. So we'll see what new features it'll bring and when I'd be able to actually buy buy. Solar Panels are pretty much a no go for me because I have a flat roof top patio across almost the entirety of my roof. Which is dedicated to a kitchen, seating, hot tub and a putting green ;) Also, realistically, electricity is so cheap here, the difference wouldn't make up for it, although I'd get it because it's "cool" haha. I think the flat rate 24 month contract, you can get $0.75/kWh now. Pretty crazy.
gjolund 10y ago
Does this include the additional cost of the electric car?
- greglindahl 10y ago
  That's discussed in the 2nd paragraph of the article: No. Electric cars have a ways to go to have lower total cost of ownership.
kazinator 10y ago
Those nice and low ¢/kWh figures seem very subsidized; not market rate figures. Whereas gasoline is not subsidized; in fact taxed quite a bit.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Gasoline is subsidized. The taxes exist to pay for road construction and maintenance, but they're not high enough even to cover that, let alone the costs imposed by the pollution released when burning the stuff.
  - kazinator 10y ago
    You're not describing subsidies in the sense that the government chips to cover some of the cost of gas so that poor people can drive. That's how residential electricity is subsidized: it costs pennies per kWh so that poor people can have it. You're describing fantasy subsidies consisting of insufficient taxation in gasoline to cover infrastructure costs and the impact of driving. We could argue that food is subsidized because terrorists eat, yet the food industry doesn't pay for the harm they cause.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      Does it matter if the subsidy comes in the form of direct cash payments or allowing people to impose costs on others without their consent? The effect is the same. Imagine if the local garbage company was allowed to dump their trash on your yard without paying you. I'd call that a subsidy.
      - kazinator 10y ago
        Yes. People imposing costs through pollution or whatever without paying for that matters. (It also matters that they may be doing irreversible damage, irreparable at any cost.) It's just not called a subsidy and is irrelevant to the point that putting electricity in your car versus gas looks good from a pure "cost to my monthly bottom line" point of view partly because of residential rate subsidies that allow poor people to turn the lights on. You're not getting gasoline from Big Oil Co below what it costs to produce. You're getting residential power below production cost from Local Power Co. For now. That loophole will likely be closed, at least partially, as EV's become ubiquitous.
darklajid 10y ago
Disclaimer: I understand this is a US focused article. My story? Everyone drew lots and I lost: I drive a Prius Plugin Hybrid for the next 2.x years as a company car because no one wanted it. My biggest beef: It's too expensive. The list price is around 50k EUR - and that's what the state of Germany uses to tax me for that car. For comparison: I drove an A3 Quattro Sportback with ~everything~ before that and that's the same price. The second problem is actually very relevant to this article: There aren't any 'free' recharging stations even remotely close to my place (a 'major city' in Germany, you'd know Bochum if you'd be from this country). This crappy car has a 22km reach when fully charged. That is far too low and even if I find a charging station .. I probably end up being at 50% if I get back home. But! The article claims that it is actually cheaper to charge your car than to refuel it. And here's another problem: The 'your company car needs fuel' problem is solved. I have two different cards that I can use to either refuel at Routex (think BP et all, big list of participants) or Shell. So, I can fuel up for free almost all the time. There's no proven way (and nothing in place for me) to pay for electricity. Ignoring the fact that it would be a logistical nightmare to plug the car in at my flat and ignoring that the 22km are really nothing but a joke and utterly useless for .. anything I do: I'd pay for that out of my own pocket vs. 'free' fuel. So I think this country over here needs to adjust quite a bit more before electrical vehicles become a decent option. Companies need to adjust their policies (why do they even give me a plugin hybrid?). More recharging stations are required. And honestly .. if your car cannot do at least 150-200km on a charge.. Then it's not an electric car, it's an electric bike with a roof on top (those can already do 60+km easily for the basic starter models).
- mcv 10y ago
  The article talks just about prices, not about who's paying for it. If your company pays for gas, but you pay for electricity, then for you obviously gas is cheaper. But that's a very specific case. Also, a Prius is a hybrid, and not meant to be used as a fully electric vehicle (or it would have a bigger battery).
ramonvillasante 10y ago
There are additional costs if we compare ICE vehicles and EV charged with clean energy. The economic, social and environmental costs of pollution and greenhouse gases of ICE vehicles are a considerable part of these and others costs, but not all: - pollution health impact - << Some three million deaths a year are linked to exposure to outdoor air pollution. Indoor air pollution can be just as deadly. In 2012, an estimated 6.5 million deaths (11.6 per cent of all global deaths) were associated with indoor and outdoor air pollution together. Ninety-four per cent of the deaths are due to non-communicable diseases – notably cardiovascular diseases, stroke, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and lung cancer. Air pollution also increases the risks for acute respiratory infections. “ This new model is a big step forward towards even more confident estimates of the huge global burden of more than six million deaths – one in nine of total global deaths – from exposure to indoor and outdoor air pollution,” said Dr. Neira, who is WHO Director, Department of Public Health, Environmental and Social Determinants of Health. " >> source: http://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/09/vast-majority-of-world-6-76-billion-people-living-with-excessive-air-pollution-un-report/ http://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/09/vast-m... - Greenhouse gases emission for climate change impact - “Temperature change will leave the average income around the world 23% lower in 2100 than it would be without climate change” "This study is far from the first to suggest that climate change will slow economic growth. Big business has been especially keen on highlighting the potential damage. A Citigroup report released last month found that minimizing temperature rises to 2.7ºF (1.5ºC) could minimize global GDP loss by $50 trillion compared to a rise of 8.1ºF (4.5ºC) in the coming decades." source: http://time.com/4082328/climate-change-economic-impact/ http://time.com/4082328/climate-change-economic-impact/ source paper in Nature: http://www.nature.com/articles/nature15725.epdf?referrer_access_token=thXOWAL7phwQx1Ix4h4B5NRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0M9qnfWTywcc-SwmqGd2vK84Dm7GGBIHFDIK3iZFcb2NUnSWQFSATgixEL12Q5gaz4cu6pwBdmJr0pzYWgCowDlURYTItMWFpO9JXTxz0wQhwn5ENsOs0FZbjPUiCI6nuAjOV3rDJp4u1OyDAn_STB05X0irCG8b53vplpSGjftjg%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=time.com http://www.nature.com/articles/nature15725.epdf?referrer_acc... - Fossil fuel subsidies - "Fossil Fuel Subsidies Cost $5 Trillion Annually and Worsen Pollution The International Monetary Fund notes that subsides for burning fossil fuels enrich the wealthy and make air pollution worse" source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fossil-fuel-subsidies-cost-5-trillion-annually-and-worsen-pollution/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fossil-fuel-subsi... I repeat that ICE vehicles are a considerable part of this costs, not all. Also EV charged with clean energy have costs, R&D&I, subsidies, etc. but compared in economic, social and environmental costs and in each of them alone, EV charged with clean energy cost less and are better for society’s health, economy, security, survival and happiness, globally. There is a lot of work and costs left to do but I think we can do it with increasing innovation and social awareness.
tw04 10y ago
So, it does nothing to take into account the fact that if every car tomorrow switched to electric, we'd literally have no way to power the cars. The price of electricity would skyrocket to reflect the complete and utter lack of generation capabilities. It's great to talk about how electricity is cheaper at rates that are unsustainable, but unless we're willing to adopt nuclear, we're a LONG way from having enough energy and enough of it in a clean format to power our energy needs. I know, I know - solar and wind (which will help but not solve the whole issue). That being said, I still have questions about how pulling that much energy and heat from the earth will affect our larger ecosystem. I don't think we REALLY have a grasp on the macro effects of "renewable" energy.
- durkie 10y ago
  this dovetails nicely with our existing problem of excess heat on the earth :)
- mikeash 10y ago
  At least we have a pretty clear idea of how to reach a future where all electricity is sustainable. We don't really know how to do that with gasoline. I don't think the effects of removing that energy are significant. The amount of energy we use is utterly negligible compared to what the sun shines upon the Earth. Climate change is a problem because the impact of CO2 is orders of magnitude greater than the energy released in generating it.
  - aianus 10y ago
    > At least we have a pretty clear idea of how to reach a future where all electricity is sustainable. We don't really know how to do that with gasoline. Sure we do (ish). Look at Brazil, they pump more renewable bio-ethanol into their flex-fuel cars than they do gasoline.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      They use sugar cane to produce their ethanol, which is far more efficient than corn ethanol in the US (which, might I add, is in no way sustainable). Are you suggesting we attempt to grow sugar cane, in the midwest, in the enormous quantities required to replace millions of barrels a day of petroleum consumption? Electricity will be the clear winner; we're simply awash in sunlight and wind.
fryguy 10y ago
As someone who has an electric car, this completely disregards the fact that by having an electric car, it nearly automatically puts you into a higher electricity cost tier. In my case, it's $0.10/kWh for the normal, and $0.18/kWh for the higher tier. They're using the "average" cost of electricity which should be lower than the actual cost of electricity. I ended up getting solar panels, so that dropped me back down to using very little electricity from the local municipal electricity company and saving at least $100/month when taking into account the cost of the solar panels.
- jsight 10y ago
  It would be difficult for me to take that into account as noone in my part of the country seems to have that kind of rate structure. I think it is mainly a west coast thing? There are some places around here that have a demand charge for certain hours, but they also tend to have the cheapest rates in the region as well.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I haven't heard of this. Whenever I see discussion of EV charging rates from owners, it's in the context of taking advantage of extra-cheap overnight rates. I'm sure what you say is the case in some places, but are you sure this is common?
- buerkle 10y ago
  That is highly dependent on where you live. I live in Austin and pay a constant rate of about $0.12/kWh no matter the time of day.
carterehsmith 10y ago
The statement comes from "pluglesspower.com". Is that a credible source? I kind of follow the tech scene, I never heard of them. Did anyone? So. It is just a company blogger tasked to promote whatever they are doing. So... no comment.
ksylvest 10y ago
Shouldn't one also factor in the cost of purchasing comparably classed vehicles? For example - the base Nissan Leaf costs 29k versus a comparable Nissan Versa costing 14k. 15k difference in vehicle is equivalent to just over 6000 gallons of gas (or around 186 thousand miles).
- gajjanag 10y ago
  This is a great point, and indeed the article is overly simplistic. I think though that what really matters beyond the base cost in this point is the depreciation cost over time. This is of course much harder to estimate.
- maxsilver 10y ago
  Can we factor in used vehicle sales as well? A certified used 2012 or 2013 Nissan Leaf can be had for about $9K - $14k. A used 2012 or 2013 Nissan Versa seem to sell for about $8K to $13K. (Both numbers pulled from current autotrader.com listings in the Midwest US). If your willing to buy a certified used vehicle, the price difference drops down to only about $1k-$2k.
- buerkle 10y ago
  Depending on your income, at least in the US, it's closer to 21.5k with the federal 7500 tax rebate. In addition, a few states offer rebates on top of that.
- runjake 10y ago
  > Shouldn't one also factor in the cost of purchasing comparably classed vehicles? Certainly, but in the US, the gov't is offering a $7,500 tax rebate. Additionally, many states are offering rebates, as well. Here is one such illustration of cost breakdowns in the state of Colorado: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-ele...
pwinnski 10y ago
"On average it is $60 cheaper per month to drive on electricity than gasoline." So far in 2016 I've spent less than $87/month on fuel. In February I spent less than $60, while some long road trips in July pushed me up to $144. I've taught my son to drive this year, so that's a bit extra, but it's hard to imagine this working out for me. If I'm reading the chart right, Texas comes in at #18, with $810 in savings. So far I've spent $869.59 on fuel this year. Admittedly, the year is not over, but I suspect it might take more than $59.59 for me to charge an electric car. I mean, if my parking space weren't such a very long way from my apartment, that is. For now, I'm planning to buy a Prius, but not the plug-in model.
- buerkle 10y ago
  It all depends on how many miles you put on your car. In Austin, I'm paying about $30/1000 miles for my Leaf or about $30/month for the amount of miles I drive.
- mcv 10y ago
  You're probably not an average car user, then. The article talks about averages. Nobody is really average. Electric cars are more efficient for people who drive a lot (see the point they make about Missouri).

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

So is owning a house outright instead of paying a mortgage every month. But you gotta cough up the cash up-front. Clearly not everyone can swing that.

deelowe 10y ago
Pedantic: That's actually not true if you consider the time value of money and current prime mortgage rates.
- msandford 10y ago
  That's absolutely fair, but a Tesla is $80k and the note payment on $80k is at least $1k/mo. A reasonable note payment on a gasoline car is $300/mo and you can buy _a lot_ of gasoline or diesel for $700/mo, before you put a single electron into your Tesla. Sure there are ostensibly other EVs out there. But it's basically a fun car to drive (Tesla) or a total bummer (Leaf or Volt). I've got something in between (turbo 4cyl) for half the cost of a Tesla per month, fuel included. Perhaps once the Tesla is paid off it gets super cheap to drive, but about that time you'll need a new battery pack I'd suspect. So in a way a Tesla is a $60k car with a $20k prepaid fuel card. It's cool, don't get me wrong. But unless you're willing to bury your head in the economic sand in a pretty serious way, it's not somehow more affordable than a car based on a traditional ICE.
vvanders 10y ago
Sure but costs are rapidly dropping for EVs while house prices continue to climb. I think we're going to see some really interesting things over the next 5-7 years as initial prices come down and operating costs stay low. It's going to squeeze the ICE market from both ends which could put them in a really tough position. I'm reminded of the HDTV market about ~10 years ago when it seems that prices were astronomical. Now you can get a 4k TV for under $300.
- sn0v 10y ago
  Out of curiosity, what 4k TV model is this? (under 300)
  - greendragon 10y ago
    Seiki 4ks have been sub 300 for a while, at least when they're on sale. (e.g. I've been using https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RBA9MOC/ref=psdc_6459737011_t3_B00BXF7I9M https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RBA9MOC/ref=psdc_6459737011_t3_... for over a year as a monitor after applying a beta firmware patch to get rid of the terrible latency. I got it for $298.)
  - pixl97 10y ago
    Walmart does carry a few of them https://www.walmart.com/browse/electronics/4k-ultra-hdtvs/3944_1060825_1180168 https://www.walmart.com/browse/electronics/4k-ultra-hdtvs/39... Not saying you should buy from them though.
- msandford 10y ago
  > I'm reminded of the HDTV market about ~10 years ago when it seems that prices were astronomical. Now you can get a 4k TV for under $300. I'll bite. Cars aren't 90% electronics, but TVs are. If you bought a BMW with everything but the drivetrain, it'd still cost a whole pile of money. Same with a Tesla. Sure the drivetrain might cost 20%-30% of the car's retail price, but even if you bring that to $0 you absolutely haven't made the car 90% cheaper for 5x the product. Just because electronics have a _huge_ NRE (non-recurring engineering) cost and fairly trivial per-unit costs (like software) doesn't mean that the whole world works that way. Metal still costs real money because it takes energy to make/recycle, form, etc.

deelowe 10y ago

This article seems disingenuous. What matters is total cost of ownership. Which is unfortunately, because there are several compelling cases now where owning an EV is cheaper than a comparable ICE.

jws 10y ago
Electric vehicles can be more expensive than comparable gas cars up front. The differences in monthly car payments is fixed and easy to understand. … For gas car buyers, fuel costs are familiar and expected. But how does electricity pricing compare to gas costs? It’s less intuitive to figure out for most of us. Hardly disingenuous, they hit that in the 2nd paragraph and explain this article is about the differences in operating costs.
- CalChris 10y ago
  Operating costs. That’s $60 per month saved on fuel alone — not including lower maintenance costs, fewer or no oil changes, and time saved in states that allow EV drivers to use the carpool lane. My Leaf replaced a high maintenance out of warranty Mercedes.

kylec 10y ago

I ran the numbers for my father a few months ago and it was basically even for him: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12379662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12379662

blacksmith_tb 10y ago

As I am eagerly awaiting delivery of a 2017 Prius Prime plug-in hybrid in their #1 state Oregon, this is all good news. However, as I'm switching from an old diesel VW, I also can't help but notice these numbers are very literally electric vs. gas, and look like they wouldn't pencil out against a diesel sedan. That said, the contrast there is between belching soot out vs. clean air, so hard to argue on that front.

relaytheurgency 10y ago
How is the electricity in Oregon generated? I wonder what the carbon footprint of running an electric vehicle on coal is, especially when you include mining Lithium etc.
- dver23 10y ago
  Mostly Hydro, Nat gas and renewable. Almost no coal.
  - agermanov 10y ago
    This says different: https://www.oregon.gov/energy/pages/oregons_electric_power_mix.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/energy/pages/oregons_electric_power_m... 33.65% is coal.

mattmanser 10y ago

Quite a few UK homes were fitted with electric storage heaters because electricity was cheap in the evenings. Now they are extremely expensive, massively more expensive than normal gas (the other kind) central heating. Is the price of US domestic electricity going to stay at the present price?

Declanomous 10y ago
It kind of depends. I live in Illinois, and I pay about 12 cents per KWH. A huge proportion of the baseload is generated by nuclear power in Illinois, which is incredibly inexpensive. Peaking power is provided with fossil fuels, such as natural gas, which is much, much more expensive. It takes a long time to ramp up or down nuclear plants, but the utility is pretty good at matching demand, so electricity remains inexpensive as a whole. The question of whether our power will continue to be inexpensive is brought up often. The nuclear plants are slowly being decommissioned, and there are vocal factions against all of the replacement options. The barriers to constructing a new nuclear plant are substantial, but people are also opposed to the construction of coal plants as well. There is a strong movement for renewable power generation. Illinois is a great area to generate wind energy, but wind is more expensive than nuclear and also requires a greater amount of peaking plants because of the variable nature of the wind, etc. All those extra peaking plants cost a lot of money, even if they sit idle 99% of the time. Illinois is way too flat for hydroelectric, but we have a few pumped hydro storage facilities. They aren't very large, and a few of the pumped hydro facilities are only designed to consume power to use up extra baseload power when the supply is expected to outstrip demand.
- caf 10y ago
  and a few of the pumped hydro facilities are only designed to consume power to use up extra baseload power when the supply is expected to outstrip demand. That doesn't seem right - if you want to temporarily curb the output of a thermal power station (eg. nuclear or coal) without actually shutting down units, you can just bypass some steam around the turbines.
  - deleted 10y ago

thoughtsimple 10y ago

Running the numbers. I live in Massachusetts and sure enough, that is one of the bottom 10 states. My Honda CRZ hybrid gets about 40 mpg average over the year. The price of gas, price per kWh and the number of miles are about right. Gas: 12282 miles @ $2.14/g and 40 mpg is $657. Electric: 12282 miles @ $0.191/kWh and Tesla P85 85kWh 285 mile range is 3.35 miles/kWh for $700. Basically a wash in a state ranked as 47th with a decently high mpg car. Price difference on the car is substantial though. $66,000 vs $23,000.

draker 10y ago

The numbers used seem skewed in favor of promoting their product rather than a real comparison. The number used for MPG is 21.4 which is the "Average U.S. light duty vehicle fuel efficiency". In addition to passenger cars the light duty vehicle class includes SUVs and pickups (including 1/2 ton models such as the Silverado, F-150). At this time I don't believe there are any electric vehicles that would compete with a 1/2 ton pickup in terms of payload or towing. It would seem the Passenger Car fuel economy would be the most accurate number to use; which is 36.4 MPG. They do acknowledge this number at the end of the post: >The average EPA fuel economy of passenger cars (not counting trucks) was 36.4 miles per gallon in 2014. Using that number puts gas and electric cars on a more even playing field. Though doing so makes electricity only cheaper in 43/50 states and the savings is not nearly as compelling as the figures from the 21.4 MPG comparison. TL;DR: this is is more of a clickbait product promotion article than a real comparison

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sokoloff 10y ago
We have a Nissan LEAF and a Honda CR-V as our two family cars. We do about 4K miles/yr on the LEAF and 5K miles/yr on the CR-V. Because both cars are used for fairly short average trip lengths, mostly in the city, the LEAF gets a little over 4 miles/kWh and the CR-V about 22 miles per gallon. That makes for about $0.05/mile for the LEAF (at MA's insane electric rates) and $0.10/mile for the CR-V, for fuel/power only. Electric cars are quite good (as compared to ICE) on the city drive cycle. The CR-V as a modestly sized, Civic-chassis/SUV-body is quite comparable to the LEAF. After incentives, the LEAF is cheaper than a new CR-V (though we bought our CR-V very well used).
wtallis 10y ago
Most SUVs and pickups get a lot of use for things like commuting where a passenger car would suffice, because it's often still cheaper than buying another car for the commute. Comparing against the light duty vehicle efficiency number is probably going a little too far since many trucks do actually get significant use as trucks, but the passenger car efficiency number definitely understates how much fuel is burned for things like commuting.

Cshelton 10y ago

Can confirm, Tesla Owner. I guess living in Texas as well, which has dirt cheap/free electricity. Yes, I have a plan that I pay $0.00/KwH between 8pm and 5am. I charge it during those hours.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
Have you run the math to see if a PowerWall would make sense if you can charge for free at night?
- jburgess777 10y ago
  Even if you can charge for free the batteries only have a limited number of charge cycles so you have to pay for the wear and tear on the batteries. Last I heard the economics were pretty close to neutral for the US: From http://www.catalyticengineering.com/top-ten-facts-about-teslas-350kwh-powerwall-battery/ http://www.catalyticengineering.com/top-ten-facts-about-tesl... "So revenue is $1.66 x 183 days x 10 years = $3,000. You’ll just about recoup the cost of the product, but you won’t profit because of two factors – the cost of inverter and installation, and the time value of money. We’re in a low-interest environment, but setting aside $7,000 today to make back $3,000 over 10 years still leaves you down $4,000 – not a very good deal."
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    Energy storage is eligible for the 30% tax credit the same as a solar panel install on your roof. So knock 30% off the total install cost ($4500 total - 30% = $3150).
- Cshelton 10y ago
  Not yet. I haven't even bothered as the current gen powerwall is pretty much not for sale... not many people actually got them. And also they are announcing PowerWall 2.0 this month. So we'll see what new features it'll bring and when I'd be able to actually buy buy. Solar Panels are pretty much a no go for me because I have a flat roof top patio across almost the entirety of my roof. Which is dedicated to a kitchen, seating, hot tub and a putting green ;) Also, realistically, electricity is so cheap here, the difference wouldn't make up for it, although I'd get it because it's "cool" haha. I think the flat rate 24 month contract, you can get $0.75/kWh now. Pretty crazy.

gjolund 10y ago

Does this include the additional cost of the electric car?

greglindahl 10y ago
That's discussed in the 2nd paragraph of the article: No. Electric cars have a ways to go to have lower total cost of ownership.

kazinator 10y ago

Those nice and low ¢/kWh figures seem very subsidized; not market rate figures. Whereas gasoline is not subsidized; in fact taxed quite a bit.

mikeash 10y ago
Gasoline is subsidized. The taxes exist to pay for road construction and maintenance, but they're not high enough even to cover that, let alone the costs imposed by the pollution released when burning the stuff.
- kazinator 10y ago
  You're not describing subsidies in the sense that the government chips to cover some of the cost of gas so that poor people can drive. That's how residential electricity is subsidized: it costs pennies per kWh so that poor people can have it. You're describing fantasy subsidies consisting of insufficient taxation in gasoline to cover infrastructure costs and the impact of driving. We could argue that food is subsidized because terrorists eat, yet the food industry doesn't pay for the harm they cause.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Does it matter if the subsidy comes in the form of direct cash payments or allowing people to impose costs on others without their consent? The effect is the same. Imagine if the local garbage company was allowed to dump their trash on your yard without paying you. I'd call that a subsidy.
    - kazinator 10y ago
      Yes. People imposing costs through pollution or whatever without paying for that matters. (It also matters that they may be doing irreversible damage, irreparable at any cost.) It's just not called a subsidy and is irrelevant to the point that putting electricity in your car versus gas looks good from a pure "cost to my monthly bottom line" point of view partly because of residential rate subsidies that allow poor people to turn the lights on. You're not getting gasoline from Big Oil Co below what it costs to produce. You're getting residential power below production cost from Local Power Co. For now. That loophole will likely be closed, at least partially, as EV's become ubiquitous.

darklajid 10y ago

Disclaimer: I understand this is a US focused article. My story? Everyone drew lots and I lost: I drive a Prius Plugin Hybrid for the next 2.x years as a company car because no one wanted it. My biggest beef: It's too expensive. The list price is around 50k EUR - and that's what the state of Germany uses to tax me for that car. For comparison: I drove an A3 Quattro Sportback with ~everything~ before that and that's the same price. The second problem is actually very relevant to this article: There aren't any 'free' recharging stations even remotely close to my place (a 'major city' in Germany, you'd know Bochum if you'd be from this country). This crappy car has a 22km reach when fully charged. That is far too low and even if I find a charging station .. I probably end up being at 50% if I get back home. But! The article claims that it is actually cheaper to charge your car than to refuel it. And here's another problem: The 'your company car needs fuel' problem is solved. I have two different cards that I can use to either refuel at Routex (think BP et all, big list of participants) or Shell. So, I can fuel up for free almost all the time. There's no proven way (and nothing in place for me) to pay for electricity. Ignoring the fact that it would be a logistical nightmare to plug the car in at my flat and ignoring that the 22km are really nothing but a joke and utterly useless for .. anything I do: I'd pay for that out of my own pocket vs. 'free' fuel. So I think this country over here needs to adjust quite a bit more before electrical vehicles become a decent option. Companies need to adjust their policies (why do they even give me a plugin hybrid?). More recharging stations are required. And honestly .. if your car cannot do at least 150-200km on a charge.. Then it's not an electric car, it's an electric bike with a roof on top (those can already do 60+km easily for the basic starter models).

mcv 10y ago
The article talks just about prices, not about who's paying for it. If your company pays for gas, but you pay for electricity, then for you obviously gas is cheaper. But that's a very specific case. Also, a Prius is a hybrid, and not meant to be used as a fully electric vehicle (or it would have a bigger battery).

ramonvillasante 10y ago

There are additional costs if we compare ICE vehicles and EV charged with clean energy. The economic, social and environmental costs of pollution and greenhouse gases of ICE vehicles are a considerable part of these and others costs, but not all: - pollution health impact - << Some three million deaths a year are linked to exposure to outdoor air pollution. Indoor air pollution can be just as deadly. In 2012, an estimated 6.5 million deaths (11.6 per cent of all global deaths) were associated with indoor and outdoor air pollution together. Ninety-four per cent of the deaths are due to non-communicable diseases – notably cardiovascular diseases, stroke, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and lung cancer. Air pollution also increases the risks for acute respiratory infections. “ This new model is a big step forward towards even more confident estimates of the huge global burden of more than six million deaths – one in nine of total global deaths – from exposure to indoor and outdoor air pollution,” said Dr. Neira, who is WHO Director, Department of Public Health, Environmental and Social Determinants of Health. " >> source: http://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/09/vast-majority-of-world-6-76-billion-people-living-with-excessive-air-pollution-un-report/ http://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/09/vast-m... - Greenhouse gases emission for climate change impact - “Temperature change will leave the average income around the world 23% lower in 2100 than it would be without climate change” "This study is far from the first to suggest that climate change will slow economic growth. Big business has been especially keen on highlighting the potential damage. A Citigroup report released last month found that minimizing temperature rises to 2.7ºF (1.5ºC) could minimize global GDP loss by $50 trillion compared to a rise of 8.1ºF (4.5ºC) in the coming decades." source: http://time.com/4082328/climate-change-economic-impact/ http://time.com/4082328/climate-change-economic-impact/ source paper in Nature: http://www.nature.com/articles/nature15725.epdf?referrer_access_token=thXOWAL7phwQx1Ix4h4B5NRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0M9qnfWTywcc-SwmqGd2vK84Dm7GGBIHFDIK3iZFcb2NUnSWQFSATgixEL12Q5gaz4cu6pwBdmJr0pzYWgCowDlURYTItMWFpO9JXTxz0wQhwn5ENsOs0FZbjPUiCI6nuAjOV3rDJp4u1OyDAn_STB05X0irCG8b53vplpSGjftjg%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=time.com http://www.nature.com/articles/nature15725.epdf?referrer_acc... - Fossil fuel subsidies - "Fossil Fuel Subsidies Cost $5 Trillion Annually and Worsen Pollution The International Monetary Fund notes that subsides for burning fossil fuels enrich the wealthy and make air pollution worse" source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fossil-fuel-subsidies-cost-5-trillion-annually-and-worsen-pollution/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fossil-fuel-subsi... I repeat that ICE vehicles are a considerable part of this costs, not all. Also EV charged with clean energy have costs, R&D&I, subsidies, etc. but compared in economic, social and environmental costs and in each of them alone, EV charged with clean energy cost less and are better for society’s health, economy, security, survival and happiness, globally. There is a lot of work and costs left to do but I think we can do it with increasing innovation and social awareness.

tw04 10y ago

So, it does nothing to take into account the fact that if every car tomorrow switched to electric, we'd literally have no way to power the cars. The price of electricity would skyrocket to reflect the complete and utter lack of generation capabilities. It's great to talk about how electricity is cheaper at rates that are unsustainable, but unless we're willing to adopt nuclear, we're a LONG way from having enough energy and enough of it in a clean format to power our energy needs. I know, I know - solar and wind (which will help but not solve the whole issue). That being said, I still have questions about how pulling that much energy and heat from the earth will affect our larger ecosystem. I don't think we REALLY have a grasp on the macro effects of "renewable" energy.

durkie 10y ago
this dovetails nicely with our existing problem of excess heat on the earth :)
mikeash 10y ago
At least we have a pretty clear idea of how to reach a future where all electricity is sustainable. We don't really know how to do that with gasoline. I don't think the effects of removing that energy are significant. The amount of energy we use is utterly negligible compared to what the sun shines upon the Earth. Climate change is a problem because the impact of CO2 is orders of magnitude greater than the energy released in generating it.
- aianus 10y ago
  > At least we have a pretty clear idea of how to reach a future where all electricity is sustainable. We don't really know how to do that with gasoline. Sure we do (ish). Look at Brazil, they pump more renewable bio-ethanol into their flex-fuel cars than they do gasoline.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    They use sugar cane to produce their ethanol, which is far more efficient than corn ethanol in the US (which, might I add, is in no way sustainable). Are you suggesting we attempt to grow sugar cane, in the midwest, in the enormous quantities required to replace millions of barrels a day of petroleum consumption? Electricity will be the clear winner; we're simply awash in sunlight and wind.

fryguy 10y ago

As someone who has an electric car, this completely disregards the fact that by having an electric car, it nearly automatically puts you into a higher electricity cost tier. In my case, it's $0.10/kWh for the normal, and $0.18/kWh for the higher tier. They're using the "average" cost of electricity which should be lower than the actual cost of electricity. I ended up getting solar panels, so that dropped me back down to using very little electricity from the local municipal electricity company and saving at least $100/month when taking into account the cost of the solar panels.

jsight 10y ago
It would be difficult for me to take that into account as noone in my part of the country seems to have that kind of rate structure. I think it is mainly a west coast thing? There are some places around here that have a demand charge for certain hours, but they also tend to have the cheapest rates in the region as well.
mikeash 10y ago
I haven't heard of this. Whenever I see discussion of EV charging rates from owners, it's in the context of taking advantage of extra-cheap overnight rates. I'm sure what you say is the case in some places, but are you sure this is common?
buerkle 10y ago
That is highly dependent on where you live. I live in Austin and pay a constant rate of about $0.12/kWh no matter the time of day.

carterehsmith 10y ago

The statement comes from "pluglesspower.com". Is that a credible source? I kind of follow the tech scene, I never heard of them. Did anyone? So. It is just a company blogger tasked to promote whatever they are doing. So... no comment.

ksylvest 10y ago

Shouldn't one also factor in the cost of purchasing comparably classed vehicles? For example - the base Nissan Leaf costs 29k versus a comparable Nissan Versa costing 14k. 15k difference in vehicle is equivalent to just over 6000 gallons of gas (or around 186 thousand miles).

gajjanag 10y ago
This is a great point, and indeed the article is overly simplistic. I think though that what really matters beyond the base cost in this point is the depreciation cost over time. This is of course much harder to estimate.
maxsilver 10y ago
Can we factor in used vehicle sales as well? A certified used 2012 or 2013 Nissan Leaf can be had for about $9K - $14k. A used 2012 or 2013 Nissan Versa seem to sell for about $8K to $13K. (Both numbers pulled from current autotrader.com listings in the Midwest US). If your willing to buy a certified used vehicle, the price difference drops down to only about $1k-$2k.
buerkle 10y ago
Depending on your income, at least in the US, it's closer to 21.5k with the federal 7500 tax rebate. In addition, a few states offer rebates on top of that.
runjake 10y ago
> Shouldn't one also factor in the cost of purchasing comparably classed vehicles? Certainly, but in the US, the gov't is offering a $7,500 tax rebate. Additionally, many states are offering rebates, as well. Here is one such illustration of cost breakdowns in the state of Colorado: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-ele...

pwinnski 10y ago

"On average it is $60 cheaper per month to drive on electricity than gasoline." So far in 2016 I've spent less than $87/month on fuel. In February I spent less than $60, while some long road trips in July pushed me up to $144. I've taught my son to drive this year, so that's a bit extra, but it's hard to imagine this working out for me. If I'm reading the chart right, Texas comes in at #18, with $810 in savings. So far I've spent $869.59 on fuel this year. Admittedly, the year is not over, but I suspect it might take more than $59.59 for me to charge an electric car. I mean, if my parking space weren't such a very long way from my apartment, that is. For now, I'm planning to buy a Prius, but not the plug-in model.

buerkle 10y ago
It all depends on how many miles you put on your car. In Austin, I'm paying about $30/1000 miles for my Leaf or about $30/month for the amount of miles I drive.
mcv 10y ago
You're probably not an average car user, then. The article talks about averages. Nobody is really average. Electric cars are more efficient for people who drive a lot (see the point they make about Missouri).