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This is something I'm struggling with right now. Setting aside iPad and iPhone for a second... Counterpoint in favor of Apple: Contributions to an open web:

This is something I'm struggling with right now. Setting aside iPad and iPhone for a second... Counterpoint in favor of Apple: Contributions to an open web: Open source development of Webkit and now Webkit2, HTML5 Canvas, Adverserial stance towards Flash in favor of HTML5 [iPad, iPhone] Contributions to open-source tools: LLVM and CLang, MacRuby support, launchd, Cocoa bindings from other languages [possibly phased out?] Contributions to open-source operating systems: OpenDarwin http://www.opensource.apple.com/ http://www.opensource.apple.com/ Developer ease: Nice set of installed developer applications, Development environment based on standard opensource toolchain, Compiling command-line tools from Linux/BSDs is sane and easy, Compiling X11 dependent apps is possible Multi-platform support: BootCamp, The only system capable of running the three major desktop operating systems easily and legally. High quality, hackable GUI environment and applications: Cocoa applications are generally built to a far higher standard than Linux GUI applications IMO, Cocoa applications are imminently hackable (see SIMBL) Hardware innovation and quality: Forward thinking innovation in hardware: Mac Air, for example, gets rid of even ethernet!, MacBook Pro line widely acknowledged as top-tier development machine [Disclosure: I have no stake in Apple.]

asolove 16y ago
Consider also the wider moral questions. Apple sources their components more carefully than other vendors when it comes to child labor, fair trade, and environmental degradation. Not as well as one might like, but certainly much better than their competitors. I was originally thinking of not buying Apple products because of the iPad announcement and the broad moral qualms I have about open systems. But then I realized that the moral importance of abusing other human beings, animals and ecosystems outweighed the moral importance of open/closed technology platforms.
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  Apple sources their components more carefully than other vendors when it comes to child labor, fair trade, and environmental degradation. Documentation? Especially, consideration recent revelations about abuse of Chinese workers at an Apple subcontractor. http://www.tgdaily.com/consumer-electronics-opinion/43340-iphone-suicide-is-a-phone-worth-dying-for http://www.tgdaily.com/consumer-electronics-opinion/43340-ip... Apple sometimes stopping the use of child on their own shows that they are better than the very worst they could be. It doesn't show they are better than their competitors. Since none of these companies is allowing any independent verification of good or bad behavior, a few press release don't matter either way. See link to Apple child labor use: http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/apple-admits-using-child-labour-20100301-pbzz.html http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/apple-admits-usin...
  - Anechoic 16y ago
    See link to Apple child labor use: Right, but that child labor was discovered as a result of an Apple audit: http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/company-news/apple-reports-child-labor-was-used-to-build-iphones-ipods/19376517/ http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/company-news/apple-reports...
    - joe_the_user 16y ago
      On skimming Apple's supplier responsibility compliance report: http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/SR_2010_Progress_Report.pdf http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/SR_2010_P..., one thing that struck me was that there were no independent agencies verifying Apple's statements (although it talks about local third-party consultants, we are given no names of these).
jlgosse 16y ago
"Multi-platform support: BootCamp, The only system capable of running the three major desktop operating systems easily and legally." I don't think this one should count. Apple intentionally blocks other hardware from running their OS, while will allow officially support for other OSes on their own hardware. It's almost hypocritical if you ask me.
- jsz0 16y ago
  Apple doesn't really play partisan politics so they don't have to worry about hypocrisy. They do whatever makes the most sense to them in the context of building a good product.
  - jlgosse 16y ago
    Why do you use confusing language? How many people actually understand what "partisan politics" are? Building a good product doesn't mean you have to be a hypocritical bunch of assholes, building a good product means creating a compelling product that people want to use.
    - joshuarr 16y ago
      "Building a good product doesn't mean you have to be a hypocritical bunch of assholes, building a good product means creating a compelling product that people want to use." I understand what "partisan politics" is. I don't, however, understand the above. What makes something compelling? Hurricanes might be compelling to me, but that doesn't make them good.
    - jsz0 16y ago
      Sorry I didn't think it was very confusing: Partisan = strong commitment to an ideology. In this case open vs. closed. Politics = the rules, methods and policies that dictate how a company runs internally and externally. So the point is Apple uses open and closed source/platforms/standards on a case-by-case basis. Most of their products a hybrid of both. It's hard to be hypocritical if you don't commit. That doesn't preclude them from making bad choices for other reasons.
stuntmouse 16y ago
Addendum: It looks like Cocoa-bindings are alive and well for Ruby and Python. Only the official Apple Java bridge has been phased out.
zacharypinter 16y ago
I'm not so sure that HTML5 adoption, at the cost of all web plugins, is a net win. I don't care so much about Flash, but it seems that Apple's lack of a plugin framework is positioning Safari to be the next IE6. Developers will be limited by the lowest common denominator. Without plugin-based workarounds, Safari's support for any new technology will dictate what web developers use. Don't like that Apple has chosen H.264 over VP8 or Theora? tough luck... clarification: referring to Mobile Safari's lack of plugins
- edd 16y ago
  edit: after clarification by OP this doesn't relate to what they are talking about. I don't know quite what you are getting at here? Are you suggesting that you can't install plugins to manage different kind of embeds with Safari? As this is just not true: Java, Flash, RealPlayer, QuickTime, Flip4Mac.... these are all plugins built as standard OSX internet plugins. If you want to develop your own go ahead. I think what you are trying to get at is that you want things that are being natively handled by the browser to be optionally controlled via a plugin. The fragmented state that is what browsers have natively implemented is quite shocking but having everything optionally overridden by plugins would cause even more fragmentation and even more headaches.
  - stuntmouse 16y ago
    I assumed that point was about the lack of support for plugins in Mobile Safari, though I could be mistaken.
- blasdel 16y ago
  You really could not be more wrong. WebKit on OS X has a native Obj-C plugin system: http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/InternetWeb/Conceptual/WebKit_PluginProgTopic/Tasks/WebKitPlugins.html http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Interne... If you want to add VP8 or Theora support in <video> to WebKit apps on OS X, just install a QuickTime decoder for them: http://xiph.org/quicktime/ http://xiph.org/quicktime/ — Want to add any codecs to Firefox? You're completely fucked, and have to fork the whole stack.
- 16y ago
joe_the_user 16y ago
...the only system capable of running the three major desktop operating systems easily and legally... So their contribution to open systems is being kind enough to only legally allow you to use their OS on their hardware?
elblanco 16y ago
For all the Apple bashing I do around here, even I have to admit that this is a stellar list of many of the things Apple is great at. I would like more of this kind of Apple in the future, not the kind we've been getting lately.

asolove 16y ago

Consider also the wider moral questions. Apple sources their components more carefully than other vendors when it comes to child labor, fair trade, and environmental degradation. Not as well as one might like, but certainly much better than their competitors. I was originally thinking of not buying Apple products because of the iPad announcement and the broad moral qualms I have about open systems. But then I realized that the moral importance of abusing other human beings, animals and ecosystems outweighed the moral importance of open/closed technology platforms.

joe_the_user 16y ago
Apple sources their components more carefully than other vendors when it comes to child labor, fair trade, and environmental degradation. Documentation? Especially, consideration recent revelations about abuse of Chinese workers at an Apple subcontractor. http://www.tgdaily.com/consumer-electronics-opinion/43340-iphone-suicide-is-a-phone-worth-dying-for http://www.tgdaily.com/consumer-electronics-opinion/43340-ip... Apple sometimes stopping the use of child on their own shows that they are better than the very worst they could be. It doesn't show they are better than their competitors. Since none of these companies is allowing any independent verification of good or bad behavior, a few press release don't matter either way. See link to Apple child labor use: http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/apple-admits-using-child-labour-20100301-pbzz.html http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/apple-admits-usin...
- Anechoic 16y ago
  See link to Apple child labor use: Right, but that child labor was discovered as a result of an Apple audit: http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/company-news/apple-reports-child-labor-was-used-to-build-iphones-ipods/19376517/ http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/company-news/apple-reports...
  - joe_the_user 16y ago
    On skimming Apple's supplier responsibility compliance report: http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/SR_2010_Progress_Report.pdf http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/SR_2010_P..., one thing that struck me was that there were no independent agencies verifying Apple's statements (although it talks about local third-party consultants, we are given no names of these).

jlgosse 16y ago

"Multi-platform support: BootCamp, The only system capable of running the three major desktop operating systems easily and legally." I don't think this one should count. Apple intentionally blocks other hardware from running their OS, while will allow officially support for other OSes on their own hardware. It's almost hypocritical if you ask me.

jsz0 16y ago
Apple doesn't really play partisan politics so they don't have to worry about hypocrisy. They do whatever makes the most sense to them in the context of building a good product.
- jlgosse 16y ago
  Why do you use confusing language? How many people actually understand what "partisan politics" are? Building a good product doesn't mean you have to be a hypocritical bunch of assholes, building a good product means creating a compelling product that people want to use.
  - joshuarr 16y ago
    "Building a good product doesn't mean you have to be a hypocritical bunch of assholes, building a good product means creating a compelling product that people want to use." I understand what "partisan politics" is. I don't, however, understand the above. What makes something compelling? Hurricanes might be compelling to me, but that doesn't make them good.
  - jsz0 16y ago
    Sorry I didn't think it was very confusing: Partisan = strong commitment to an ideology. In this case open vs. closed. Politics = the rules, methods and policies that dictate how a company runs internally and externally. So the point is Apple uses open and closed source/platforms/standards on a case-by-case basis. Most of their products a hybrid of both. It's hard to be hypocritical if you don't commit. That doesn't preclude them from making bad choices for other reasons.

stuntmouse 16y ago

Addendum: It looks like Cocoa-bindings are alive and well for Ruby and Python. Only the official Apple Java bridge has been phased out.

zacharypinter 16y ago

I'm not so sure that HTML5 adoption, at the cost of all web plugins, is a net win. I don't care so much about Flash, but it seems that Apple's lack of a plugin framework is positioning Safari to be the next IE6. Developers will be limited by the lowest common denominator. Without plugin-based workarounds, Safari's support for any new technology will dictate what web developers use. Don't like that Apple has chosen H.264 over VP8 or Theora? tough luck... clarification: referring to Mobile Safari's lack of plugins

edd 16y ago
edit: after clarification by OP this doesn't relate to what they are talking about. I don't know quite what you are getting at here? Are you suggesting that you can't install plugins to manage different kind of embeds with Safari? As this is just not true: Java, Flash, RealPlayer, QuickTime, Flip4Mac.... these are all plugins built as standard OSX internet plugins. If you want to develop your own go ahead. I think what you are trying to get at is that you want things that are being natively handled by the browser to be optionally controlled via a plugin. The fragmented state that is what browsers have natively implemented is quite shocking but having everything optionally overridden by plugins would cause even more fragmentation and even more headaches.
- stuntmouse 16y ago
  I assumed that point was about the lack of support for plugins in Mobile Safari, though I could be mistaken.
blasdel 16y ago
You really could not be more wrong. WebKit on OS X has a native Obj-C plugin system: http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/InternetWeb/Conceptual/WebKit_PluginProgTopic/Tasks/WebKitPlugins.html http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Interne... If you want to add VP8 or Theora support in <video> to WebKit apps on OS X, just install a QuickTime decoder for them: http://xiph.org/quicktime/ http://xiph.org/quicktime/ — Want to add any codecs to Firefox? You're completely fucked, and have to fork the whole stack.
16y ago

joe_the_user 16y ago

...the only system capable of running the three major desktop operating systems easily and legally... So their contribution to open systems is being kind enough to only legally allow you to use their OS on their hardware?

elblanco 16y ago

For all the Apple bashing I do around here, even I have to admit that this is a stellar list of many of the things Apple is great at. I would like more of this kind of Apple in the future, not the kind we've been getting lately.