4 ms·

The real question (in Europe at least) is why the church and "nobility" are allowed to keep their land that has often been obtained by dubious means.

by x91982 10y ago

vkou 10y ago
Almost all land in America that's not owned by the indigenous population has been obtained by dubious means. Generally, might makes right.
vkou 10y ago
Much of the land in America that's not owned by the indigenous population has been obtained by dubious means. Generally, might makes right.
- ghaff 10y ago
  Many of whom obtained it by dubious means from different tribes of indigenous peoples.
Veen 10y ago
If you look back far enough, a huge amount of the land we live on was obtained by violence, theft, or deception. If the first person in the chain of ownership got it by dubious means, they had no right to sell it, and nor did the next person, and so on. By convention, we don't look that far back and ask people to prove their right to ownership. Further back than time immemorial[1] and it's just accepted without further justification. As for royalty and the church, the United Kingdom is not a republic: it's a constitutional monarchy with an established church (the church is part of the state and the monarch is head of the church). There may come a time when the church is disestablished (against the wishes of the antidisestablishmentarians — never thought I'd have a chance to use that word on Hacker News) and the monarchy abolished, but for the moment that's what we have and there's no real justification for "removing" the property of either. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_immemorial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_immemorial
- arethuza 10y ago
  What's this established church of the UK?
  - jacalata 10y ago
    The Church of England, of course! You may have heard of them as Anglicans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England. Edit: technically not established for the whole UK, probably.
    - arethuza 10y ago
      The C of E is definitely not the established church in Scotland (in fact we don't have an established church - the Church of Scotland is pretty well independent of the state). Then there is Wales, and last but definitely not least when it comes to complicated religious issues, Northern Ireland.
      - EdwardDiego 10y ago
        My father was from Ulster, and I have a photo of him leading the marching band leading an Orange parade. I also have a confirmation certificate verifying that he's a good Presbyterian who "is loyal to the Queen and loves God"... I thought the ordering of monarch before deity was particularly telling.
      - frobozz 10y ago
        The Lords Spiritual of the CofE are members of the House of Lords, which is part of the UK parliament, and not an England-only house. Unlike the other nations, England doesn't have any independent government, so it doesn't really make sense to say that the CofE is the established church of England alone, because there is no English establishment for it to be part of. So, the CofE is the (only) established church in and of the of UK. The fact that The Kirk and The Church in Wales are not established just means that the only bishops that get to interfere with everyone else's business are from English bishoprics.
arethuza 10y ago
Where would we find land that wasn't obtained by "dubious means" at some point in its history?
- colejohnson66 10y ago
  The first humans, maybe?
sfifs 10y ago
Because the "commoners" haven't organized in UK to take them away and because the "church" and "nobility" control the establishment that makes and enforces laws. Establishment derived politicians have largely managed to sway public emotions through appeals to tradition and nostalgia for the empire. In many other parts of the world the property of the nobility was largely taken away - eg. in India a few decades after independence in the 1970s - though the smarter kings managed to retain some control by sensing which way the wind was blowing early and turning into businessmen amd politicians. One strategy used was to endow property to "public" trusts, take controlling board seats and starting businesses contracted by these trusts to extract the income.

The real question (in Europe at least) is why the church and "nobility" are allowed to keep their land that has often been obtained by dubious means.

by x91982 10y ago

The real question (in Europe at least) is why the church and "nobility" are allowed to keep their land that has often been obtained by dubious means.

vkou 10y ago

Almost all land in America that's not owned by the indigenous population has been obtained by dubious means. Generally, might makes right.

vkou 10y ago

Much of the land in America that's not owned by the indigenous population has been obtained by dubious means. Generally, might makes right.

ghaff 10y ago
Many of whom obtained it by dubious means from different tribes of indigenous peoples.

Veen 10y ago

If you look back far enough, a huge amount of the land we live on was obtained by violence, theft, or deception. If the first person in the chain of ownership got it by dubious means, they had no right to sell it, and nor did the next person, and so on. By convention, we don't look that far back and ask people to prove their right to ownership. Further back than time immemorial[1] and it's just accepted without further justification. As for royalty and the church, the United Kingdom is not a republic: it's a constitutional monarchy with an established church (the church is part of the state and the monarch is head of the church). There may come a time when the church is disestablished (against the wishes of the antidisestablishmentarians — never thought I'd have a chance to use that word on Hacker News) and the monarchy abolished, but for the moment that's what we have and there's no real justification for "removing" the property of either. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_immemorial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_immemorial

arethuza 10y ago
What's this established church of the UK?
- jacalata 10y ago
  The Church of England, of course! You may have heard of them as Anglicans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England. Edit: technically not established for the whole UK, probably.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    The C of E is definitely not the established church in Scotland (in fact we don't have an established church - the Church of Scotland is pretty well independent of the state). Then there is Wales, and last but definitely not least when it comes to complicated religious issues, Northern Ireland.
    - EdwardDiego 10y ago
      My father was from Ulster, and I have a photo of him leading the marching band leading an Orange parade. I also have a confirmation certificate verifying that he's a good Presbyterian who "is loyal to the Queen and loves God"... I thought the ordering of monarch before deity was particularly telling.
    - frobozz 10y ago
      The Lords Spiritual of the CofE are members of the House of Lords, which is part of the UK parliament, and not an England-only house. Unlike the other nations, England doesn't have any independent government, so it doesn't really make sense to say that the CofE is the established church of England alone, because there is no English establishment for it to be part of. So, the CofE is the (only) established church in and of the of UK. The fact that The Kirk and The Church in Wales are not established just means that the only bishops that get to interfere with everyone else's business are from English bishoprics.

arethuza 10y ago

Where would we find land that wasn't obtained by "dubious means" at some point in its history?

colejohnson66 10y ago
The first humans, maybe?

sfifs 10y ago

Because the "commoners" haven't organized in UK to take them away and because the "church" and "nobility" control the establishment that makes and enforces laws. Establishment derived politicians have largely managed to sway public emotions through appeals to tradition and nostalgia for the empire. In many other parts of the world the property of the nobility was largely taken away - eg. in India a few decades after independence in the 1970s - though the smarter kings managed to retain some control by sensing which way the wind was blowing early and turning into businessmen amd politicians. One strategy used was to endow property to "public" trusts, take controlling board seats and starting businesses contracted by these trusts to extract the income.