14 ms·

“If you get a C or lower, I’ll buy you a present”

304 points by hypertexthero 10y ago

webkike 10y ago
My dad always believed that if you're going to do anything, you should try to be the best at it. In terms of grades I certainly have not seen a positive effect, but I think the reason is I don't value professional education as much as passion learning, which for me is much more rare. The sentiment however has been instilled in me, and when I discover something that I enjoy doing its hard for me to be second place.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  > if you're going to do anything, you should try to be the best at it I think this is an admirable heuristic in certain circumstances. It's important to note its perversions. If you're measuring value by social ranking, you're incorporating others' values into your discovery process. This makes it difficult to do anything groundbreakingly unique. How can you be first if you're the only one racing? (Then again, genius versus madness is a retrospective measure.)
  - webkike 10y ago
    Perhaps I should change the full phrase to "the best you can be"
    - greendragon 10y ago
      But then the phrase just becomes generic advice everyone gives and provides an easy scapegoat to save face. Don't change it. Or if you must, you could at least dress it up a bit like Feynman http://www.basicfeynman.com/read_letters.html http://www.basicfeynman.com/read_letters.html ("If you have any talent, or any occupation that delights you, do it, and do it to the hilt. Don't ask why, or what difficulties you may get into.") You can weasel your way out of failure with "well that's as good as I can be", it's harder to weasel out with "well I went at this at full force but failed anyway." The latter can also provide some satisfaction that you went as hard as you did, whereas the former just provides resignation. (It's similar to Facebook's "Move fast and break things." It's a great phrase precisely because it's not the same generic advice everyone gives. There are times where it doesn't apply, that's more important than the times it does. Universal for all time advice sucks and is bland.)
  - 50CNT 10y ago
    I think it's also flawed when applied to "anything". Realistically, you can only become "best" at a handful of things, even under relaxed scope. You cannot be best at all skills you require to function. However, it often suffices to be reasonably good. Be reasonably good at cleaning. Be reasonably good at cooking, or accounting, or programming, or exercising. Then take these things off your mind, and divert your attention to those skills that comprise your focus.
- bsder 10y ago
  > My dad always believed that if you're going to do anything, you should try to be the best at it. This is a hard balance. I have found that being very close to the top in many different things you do while only being "the best" in one or two is far more productive and efficient. Often the amount of effort you need to expend to be #1 instead of #2 is exponential. Sometimes it makes sense, but most of the time it doesn't. And, if you are very consistently #2, you often wind up with the top spot more often than you would expect because #1 stumbles. Consistency is consistently underrated. :)
  - BeetleB 10y ago
    >This is a hard balance. Probably because it is not at all a balance.
- BeetleB 10y ago
  >My dad always believed that if you're going to do anything, you should try to be the best at it. My dad would say similar things. Boy, how wrong he was. (Fortunately, he was not pushy about it.) In my years, I have learned the value of making mistakes, and not pursuing the path of minimal mistakes. I have also learned the value of quitting. Always trying to be best in what I pursue would mean I would often pursue the wrong goals. (Tangentially, "Finish what you start" ranks highly on my list of really bad advice). I have also learned the value of "good enough". There are things I passionately want to be the best at. There are other things that have no value for me beyond being "good enough". Our dad's advice would ensure we either do not pursue the latter, or we aim for perfection in it to the expense of other endeavours. Simply put, the advice is good only if you have unlimited time. When you get old enough and can reflect on your past, you'll get a better sense of how much time you have left and what you can accomplish in it. That time is very precious, and it may be in your best interest to be good at many things, as opposed to the best at a few (and poor at the rest).
  - pitaa 10y ago
    >(Tangentially, "Finish what you start" ranks highly on my list of really bad advice). I tend to agree. People have told me that they were only doing something because they started it and 'don't want to be a quitter'. My response is always that the concept of a 'quitter' doesn't really exist to anyone but high school football coaches. In the words of Kenny Rogers, "You've got to know when to hold 'em, Know when to fold 'em, Know when to walk away, And know when to run…"
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    My parents - especially my mother - was big on both the, "If you are going to do something, you should try to do it well" and "you should finish what you start". Which led me to not starting some things. I'm still learning when some things are "good enough". I still have the drive to do things "correctly". Which is a real pain when you need to speak a foreign language because you moved! Interestingly, however, I kind of embraced the opposite of "finish what you start" - to the horror of my mother, I'm sure. I tend to work on bits of projects at a time, especially with hobbies. The downside is that occasionally I have a half-finished project that never gets finished. The more I learn to work with it, however, the more I tend to simply have projects (especially art) in various stages of finishing, but they all get finished. Overall, I find my finished projects are better for it.
- esturk 10y ago
  Are you really 'second to none' at something?
  - webkike 10y ago
    At some things definitely.
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
Part of the problem is our culture lauds perfectionism as a case of someone caring too much or being too ambitious. That's not what it is. Perfectionism is a failure to optimize across a complex goal space, settling, instead, on ignoring the difficult (and beautifully complex) prioritisation problem in favour of over-optimizing a limited set of easily-defined goals ("getting an A") over longer-run priorities ("being a fulfilled and productive citizen").
- twentythree 10y ago
  I hadn't heard that before, but I like that way of thinking about it. It reminds me a bit of Goodhart's Law: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure". Good grades might be a good measure of a student's performance, but when we focus on optimizing the grades themselves, they become less useful as a metric. When I was in high school, there were some students who wouldn't take a class if it wasn't weighted, because it would bring down their overall GPA; even if it was an interest of theirs, they were worried that the effect on their class rank would hurt their college admissions chances.
  - woodpanel 10y ago
    I wonder how much of that "grade performance inflation" isn't due to changed externals but just due to the ever built-in ways of inter-generational parenting-evolution: It doesn't matter that you are the only sibling graduating, what matters more is that once you've gone PHD you'll (openly/subconciously) put your expectations on display for your kids to see. As a college-grad, how likely would you tolerate ("welcome"), your kids leaving education with a high school diploma?
    - eanzenberg 10y ago
      As a phd, I'd be perfectly fine with my kid(s) finishing with a HS diploma. Why? Well 1st, it would be a lot cheaper for us! 2nd, I wouldn't at all be worried as long as the internal drive is there to further their own education. A lot of people have the idea that once formal education stops the need to learn ceases. In fact, the need to learn should never cease because progress can always be found. What changes is that once formal education stops, learning becomes self-driven. So whether a person has a HS diploma or a phd is irrelevant if their internal drive to progress has stopped.
zodPod 10y ago
This sentiment, while important to remember if you ARE a perfectionist, also sounds like a really slippery slope similar to something like eating right. "Well if I just eat when I'm hungry" you'll find you're frequently "hungry" if you're a certain type of person. That said, if you're a certain type of person, "not being a perfectionist" could be a great avenue for never pulling yourself out of your slump. "I messed up at school" Well, I'm not a perfectionist so that's fine I'll just keep at the same pace. TURNS OUT, that pace wasn't so useful. "I am failing Chemistry" OH WELL. I'm not a perfectionist so it doesn't matter. You can see how this can be a problem as a mantra to a certain type of person.
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  > if I just eat when I'm hungry That is how I lost way too much weight. Got hungry, wasn't able to eat right then by the time I was able to eat I was no longer hungry. I gradually taught myself to eat very little and was very ill because of it. Eating is a slippery slope in all directions.
  - 77pt77 10y ago
    Have you ever practiced controlled intermittent fasting?
    - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
      I have since, but not before the incident I was referring to.
- cesarbs 10y ago
  Exactly, it depends a lot on the kind of person you are. I know my daughter is not a perfectionist. If I offered to reward her if she did badly at school, I'm pretty sure I'd be buying her gifts every week. She does well in school by the way - because we constantly nudge her to. We don't put pressure on her for perfection though, just for decent results.
vtepe 10y ago
I was raised the oppossing camp. The effects: psyche to fix, loneliness and I still have to work in warehouses.
pingec 10y ago
If my parents bought me a present after I had received a bad mark in school when I was a teenager my twisted mind would have interpreted that as a catastrophe, "my god, they really do think I have failed and now they are even trying to bribe me to be better, they must be desperate".
- protomyth 10y ago
  I'm with you, I would be staring in the mirror having an existential crisis. "What the heck? Are they giving me a thinly disguised participation trophy? They hate participation trophies?!?" I guess know your audience applies to parenting as well as performance.
snowwrestler 10y ago
By the time her father said this to her, she obviously already had strong intrinsic motivation. Her parents just did a good job of managing it. How to create intrinsic motivation is a harder question. There is some research that parents can create it by setting and clearly communicating expectations from an early age. But it's not conclusive. We're clearly deep into nature/nurture territory here.
- clbrook 10y ago
  This article might help give you some ideas or pathways to discover other ideas on cultivating intrinsic motivation: http://www.edutopia.org/blog/intrinsic-motivation-growth-mindset-writing-amy-conley http://www.edutopia.org/blog/intrinsic-motivation-growth-min...
  - q-base 10y ago
    Thanks a lot for that link. Really interesting and a few books now heading my way from Amazon :)
11thEarlOfMar 10y ago
Do you think there is more uncertainty about the future today than there was, say, 50 years ago? Anxiety about school and grades may be an outcome of an increasing sense of uncertainty. The less confident one is about the prospects of the future, the more safety net they will desire. Getting the best possible education is perceived to be the best safety net short of a trust fund. One major difference between 2016 and 1956 is the perceived likelihood (for Americans, anyway) that you'll be able to work on an assembly line, or, a customer support group, or that your white collar job will be done on-shore. My advice to my kids was to seek a profession that could not be sent overseas, one way or the other. Such as dentist or lumberjack :-) But of course, we now have hair transplant robots which bodes poorly for both professions. What it means to me is that navigating the rest of the 21st century requires thoughtfulness, sound analytical skills and a sense of agency. People have to be able to understand the relative impact of all manner of dynamic systems in the world, not just technology, but economics and government, and the way they all interact. Then, they need to plan how to do to stay relevant and execute their plan. Learning that seems like a lot to ask from a public high school education these days, yet, I believe I learned it 40 years ago. What has changed?
- sotojuan 10y ago
  I wasn't alive in 1956 nor have I studied the 1950s enough to make a valid judgement, but I graduated college this year and high school in 2012 and the attitude was definitely one of uncertainty. If you didn't get X grade or Y internship (or any random thing like that), your chances at a good career were well, uncertain. A lot of people paint the 1950s and early 60s such that you could do okay in high school and not go to a 4-year college and still manage to provide for a middle class family. Can anyone who has studied or otherwise know if this was true? The only thing I can be certain of is that this is only true if you were white.
  - pdonis 10y ago
    > If you didn't get X grade or Y internship (or any random thing like that), your chances at a good career were well, uncertain. You left out one thing: if you do get X grade or Y internship, your chances at a good career are still uncertain. There is no magic bullet. > A lot of people paint the 1950s and early 60s such that you could do okay in high school and not go to a 4-year college and still manage to provide for a middle class family. To an extent this was probably true in the US, but the reason was something temporary: there was a huge economic expansion going on in the aftermath of WWII, with new markets being created, and many industries were willing to basically overpay their workers in order to increase production and capture market share. In the US auto industry, for example, most new car sales in the 1950s and 1960s were genuine new sales--families who had never had a car before or who were adding a second (or even third) car they hadn't had before. In that environment, yes, a person with a high school education can have a middle class income, because the cost of his labor is a minor expense compared to the potential value to be captured. In the current US auto industry, by contrast, almost all new car sales are for replacement of previous cars--the market is saturated. That means there is a huge price pressure being exerted, and hence a huge pressure to drive down wages and to automate jobs that used to be done by human workers in order to reduce costs. In this environment, a person with only a high school education is unlikely to have the skills that would make them valuable enough to a company to be able to earn a middle class income. (Note that I said "unlikely"; it's possible to develop such skills without a college education, but statistically few people do.) Does that mean things are more uncertain now? I'm not sure. I said the situation in the 1950s and 1960s was temporary; it was also not the same in all industries. So I don't know that one can make a general statement either way.
yaacov 10y ago
These parents were able to send their kid to NYU, an extremely expensive private college with almost no financial aid. Many of the parents who put insane pressure on their kids to succeed academically do so because they can't afford schools like NYU- they have to get into more competitive schools that offer more financial aid or lower tuitions.
- broahmed 10y ago
  I'm completely unfamiliar with NYU, but isn't it possible she had outside scholarships or grants?
  - morgante 10y ago
    Yes, it's entirely possible. Not to mention that NYU spends literally hundreds of millions of dollars on financial aid every year. Hardly "almost no financial aid."
    - 24gttghh 10y ago
      Which does not necessarily imply that money is being well spent...UCLA costs less than half [0] of what NYU asks, and has a smaller endowment per student. What I read from those numbers, is that UCLA gets less money and does more with it. [0]http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/09/17/upshot/top-colleges-doing-the-most-for-low-income-students.html http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/09/17/upshot/top-col...
      - morgante 10y ago
        That's all well and good. One can criticize NYU's financial aid policies, but to assume that an NYU student is wealthy without knowing anything about them is preposterous.
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drakonka 10y ago
I have experienced both types of approaches from my family. As a kid attending school in Ukraine we had classes 6 days a week and hours of homework each day. My grandmother was a teacher before retirement - I remember her having some very harsh words over my late nights doing math homework in 3rd-5th grade (I can't remember why but in my school there was no 4th grade, everyone in my class went from 3rd into 5th). I just could not get long division for the longest time - there was yelling and tears. When my family (not including grandparents) moved to the U.S., my parents noticeably loosened up. I think it was because they didn't feel like they had to chase after me to do well so much anymore. They were kind of caught off guard by the school system. Math was the most important, but the stuff we were learning in math at the U.S. school were things we learned long ago in Ukraine so to them it looked like I was doing well and needed no chasing. In truth I was only doing well because my grandmother made me drill math so hard in Ukraine in prior years! Unfortunately when in later years what we learned in American schools started to overtake what I had already known from Ukrainian schools, the relaxed attitude began to show in my grades. Perfect scores slipped to mid-lower 90s, then to Bs, and even some Cs. I remember failing one test - still can't remember why, even my teacher was shocked. I ended up graduating high school with "above average" grades, but nowhere near as good as they would've been had my grandmother kept charge of my learning. While I don't miss my grandmother's yelling, I do wish my parents were a bit more strict back then (and at the same time realize that my lack of motivation in school was entirely my fault). I turned out ok, but feel like having a stronger grasp of math and more structured study habits would've been very beneficial later in life.
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- fossuser 10y ago
  Coming from the other extreme where I had very little control of my life I'm not sure strict parents yelling at you a lot is a better motivator. If anything I'd get an emotional response to do the opposite even if rationally I knew I should be studying or preparing for something. Some autonomy to have your own life is preferred. It's with some irony that I largely have the job I do now because I ignored my mom and messed around with linux instead of constantly preparing for medschool. Though I did end up doing pre-med reqs in addition to CS anyway.
agentgt 10y ago
The work ethic correlation with suicide at the end of the article in a common sense way is sort of sound but it also begs the question: "maybe some cultures are more comfortable with suicide" (a->b) instead of idea of the author has "since asians work harder/have higher expectations more asians must commit suicide" (a->b->c). Obviously the author has the stats that asians are in more prestigious schools but that doesn't necessarily mean they are pressured more or that they are consequently more likely to commit suicide. For example you could have devout catholics that have the same work pressures and stressors but would never commit suicide (I don't know if that is true but I'm not sure about the authors position either).
- agentgt 10y ago
  I noticed I got downvoted and now I'm terrible nervous I offended someone. I wish downvoters would comment (I have never downvoted anyone on any forum without a comment). I don't mind disagreement of opinion even if it deserves downvotes but I'm concerned if I offended anyone. All I meant is that the expectation of parents of the culture reference in the article might not entirely be the cause of the higher % of suicides.
  - chillacy 10y ago
    I did not downvote you and as of right now you're comment seems to be hovering around positive points, but I do have some thoughts. Keep in mind that even though college aged AAs have higher than average suicide ideation, the suicide rate of all AAs is half the national average: http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/ethnicity-health/asian-american/suicide.aspx http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/ethnicity-health/asian-... In fact from the stats, being engaged in the AA community tends to reduce the likelihood of suicide. That aligns with what I've seen myself from my parents and my friend's parents.
    - agentgt 10y ago
      But that goes against subtle hinting of the article of parenting being the cause of suicide. If it were parenting wouldn't suicide be high earlier as well (before college)? Maybe it isn't cultural within families but peer social groups that are setting the bar too high. I'm arguing the stress may not actually be from the parents but the desire to fit in with others in the group.
stirner 10y ago
As others in the NYT and HN comments have said, the best parenting strategy seems to depend on the psychology of the kid. My parents were more or less in the pussycat camp, which led me to put an enormous amount of pressure on myself as I felt like they just said that to be nice, because they knew I was "gifted" and would ultimately do "what they really wanted". It wasn't good for me mental health wise.
electriclove 10y ago
I agree with the sentiment and hope to raise my children without tiger parent pressure. Though graduating with a psychology degree and studying copywriting seems to make for a tough life ahead. I certainly don't want my child to "have to break [their] neck to make a living", but it seems like that might end up being the case here anyways.
lr4444lr 10y ago
That motivation may have been contextually valuable for Ms. Chia, but speaking as a former teacher, the majority of American students would probably benefit from parenting that sits further down toward the "Tiger Mom" end of the parenting spectrum. Not off the deep end, of course, but definitely further than at present.
- cesarbs 10y ago
  > former teacher Sorry but I'm going to be that person :) How much do you think parents should be involved with kids' homework? My wife and I got tired of the daily battles with our 3rd grader over homework. Until a few days ago one of us would review it at home and point out any mistakes. The response to any mistake was a fit of rage. Our daughter gets extremely frustrated whenever we point out she did something wrong. So we decided to try a different approach. We told her we won't review her homework anymore, unless she explicitly asks us to. Her end of the deal is that at the end of the week she has to read her teacher's feedback and take note of what she got wrong, and figure out how she could have gotten it right. Do you think it might be a good strategy?
  - lr4444lr 10y ago
    I'll preface by saying that most issues surrounding homework are in general very debatable, and even the best educational research (which is not great) suggests a lot of age and subject dependent policy variation. And even the individual teacher and his or her relation with your daughter are confounding variables, not to mention whatever lessons in values and character building you and your wife might have, so this answer comes with a lot of unstated speculation on my part. It sounds like the original interaction you had with her consisted purely of negative reinforcement. That rarely produces the long term results loving parents want, even in very obedient kids. Your second approach is fine for a child who is either mature or has significant intrinsic motivation. A weekly assessment is a good frequency, but you're leaving it entirely up to her to report, and she seems to have the option to give you no feedback. Can you trust her not to slack off and surprise you with an unacceptable grade at the next test? Maybe you can; I don't know your child. Maybe she's naturally bright in the subject, or can at least pull her act together and study hard enough when test time comes around. Do you expect 100% mastery on each assignment? Not every mistake reflects a gap in knowledge or conceptual understanding, and the smartest children are often the most acutely aware of when they're penalized for careless errors or unnecessary formalism. That's not to say diligence and tolerating unliked procedures are bad lessons to learn either, but a good teacher can distinguish from the nature of the error what kind of feedback to give. I realize I'm raising more questions and factors instead of answering directly, because I'm trying to convey that parents should grow more sensitive in general to the academic behaviors and values their rules encourage. Be ready to iterate on your strategy (maybe 1 month of weekly feedback) make sure you're able to get reliable feedback. If you wanted a more proactive suggestion, why have her demonstrate her knowledge around homework at all? Typical 3rd grade psych. development sees children still interestep in showing their parents their accomplishments to seek their approval across the board. What if when you see her in a good mood, and not engrossed in something else, like around the dinner table in casual conversation, you ask her to teach _you_ something new she learned in class that day? (Maybe start with other subjects if the homework one is too sensitive.) Feign surprise and gratitude, as if she really taught you something new. Having to reexplain content knowledge in one's own words from memory is a very powerful retention technique.
honkhonkpants 10y ago
Had to think for a bit about the sign or direction of "or lower". A and B are less than C in my everyday existence.
unabst 10y ago
In Japan perfectionism is not encouraged. The rough translation kanpeki shugi (完璧主義) will bring up more ways to fix it than become it on the first page of google. What the Japanese culture and other Asian cultures similarly encourage however is discipline (majime, まじめ), and the proper way (matomo, まとも）. This means parents instill time management (basically they force kids to take the time to study) and procedure (study environment, tools, focus, resources). This is the true cultural advantage. With regards to suicide, this too can be correlated to culture with statistics, but it has nothing to do with perfectionism. I would attribute it more to their naivety when it comes to mental well being, and to self sacrifice. In other words, they think it's okay to suffer and sacrifice their mental health far past the safe line, and fare more than most would permit in the west. In Japan, your "self" takes a back seat to the onus of being the majime and matomo Japanese citizen. The answer is to learn time management, discipline, and procedure, but while staying healthy, both physically and mentally. That's what OP's father did. He made sure his daughter's mental health was okay. That's what parents ought to do, and he deserves all the credit in the world.
- cJ0th 10y ago
  > This is the true cultural advantage. But is it? I admit, eastern cultures are fascinating to study but I believe if you pick an average citizen of Japan and compare him/her with an average person of some western country you'll find both persons despite their different backgrounds surprisingly similar. You may criticize how math is taught in the US and argue how, for example, Korea does a better job but in the end both countries excel at delivering high tech goods. Overall, there is not so much difference here. So I wonder whether we just create differences by looking for them.
- teek 10y ago
  I'm not so sure what you're defining is completely different. Doing things the "right way" in Japan and other east asian cultures has more or less the same effect as trying to be "perfect" in American culture. The effect is both cultures encourage the individual to act in a manner they may not accept themselves. The difference being that in a conformist culture the avenues for self expression are limited by culture and society. In an ambition oriented culture the concept of "failure" has the same damaging effects. This isn't to say that both traits, conformity and perfection are inherently bad, instead we should be teaching the purpose or reason to do so rather than blindly require the behavior without justification.
tomcam 10y ago
What amazing parents. I know Asian parents well, and this is utterly extraordinary.
gohrt 10y ago
> Kate Chia, a 2015 graduate of New York University [with a degree in Psychology], is studying copywriting at Miami Ad School. Not sure we should be looking to this person's story as a role model.
toomanybeersies 10y ago
I seem to be saying it even more, but once again I must state that perfect is the enemy of good. Often people strive for perfection in their grades, to the detriment of their finances, friendships, and personal development. It happened to several people I know, they'd lock themselves away and study for hours instead of being social and forging relationships (which in the real world outside university are a lot more important than grades). At the end of the day, everyone gets the same Degree (unless you're doing honours, where there are grades). It doesn't really matter what your grades were if you can network yourself into a job instead.
alextheparrot 10y ago
My parents and collegiate experiences were much like the author's. I would call them asking for advice, only for them to ask about how I'm pursuing happiness. That openness and lack of using perfection as a goal allowed me to pursue first (pre-)medicine, then (pre-)graduate school (Biochemistry), and finally Computer Science throughout college. After four years, I found myself with two majors (Biochemistry and CS) and can only thank my parents for not pushing me in one direction, as I've never been happier as I am now developing software in the biotech space.
blahblah3 10y ago
In my experience, asian parents tend to vastly underestimate the importance of genetics that predetermine a child's strengths and dispositions. Kids that are born with some combination of great working memory, processing speed, and abstract reasoning ability will do fine at math and science with an order of magnitude less effort than others. For these kids, being pushed to perfection in school can be beneficial. For others, the expectation that they need to do as well as the other kid on the SATs or in engineering or medicine or whatever often leads to the problems the author describes (suicidal ideation, depression, etc...). Sure, everyone should be encouraged to try their best but there needs to be more focus on cultivating everyone's unique strengths. Often times the people getting perfect SAT scores aren't studying any more than others (in my experience, less), yet asian parents will tend to believe that their kid's imperfect score is due merely to a lack of effort.
- augustt 10y ago
  Interesting - to me, it seems like asian parents have recognized that genetics have less of a role than you might think. When I look at math contest results (in the US), asian kids are completely dominating. Either asian kids are just inherently better at math (probably not), or their parents have realized that they can instill the work ethic and studiousness to produce these results even if their kid isn't a natural genius.
  - blahblah3 10y ago
    Yes, preparation makes a big difference in math olympiad but most of those competing at a high level are already very talented to begin with. The problem is when a parent expects their kid to achieve similar performance when they don't have the raw skills. By attributing no role to inherent ability, blame is always put solely on the child for not trying hard enough. Even within a given family, you'll notice that some kids are better much more talented than their brothers or sisters at a given task, and the difference is not really preparation (especially since these differences can often be seen at a very young age).
    - jiaweihli 10y ago
shurcooL 10y ago
This phenomenon reminds me of what it's like to send PRs to a project, hoping it gets approved and merged ASAP... Then being given push rights, and suddenly finding yourself on the other side of the fence: hoping PRs are reviewed very rigorously and merged only after much scrutiny, to keep the code quality and maintainability up, scope low, etc.
haloboy777 10y ago
That was a very good clickbait for me as a college student.
supergetting 10y ago
When I was a 3rd grader in South Korea I had the hardest time solving the simplest arithmetic problems. My teacher used to keep me after hours as a punishment until I was able to solve them. I think it was literally something like "2+3-3+2+2-100+39". You could say that I was pretty much in the opposite end of "exceptional" on any subject — was NEVER serious about school back then and completely ignorant of education (probably didn't even know what this meant). To me school was a place where I went to hang out with friends for 7 to 8 hours, and yet, I don't remember my parents doing anything about it, not even a light discussion about my education. This went on for several years even during my early school years in the U.S. (my family immigrated in the middle of my 3rd grade year). It was only when I started watching stargate and other scifi movies/tvshows that I got interested in science and technology, and thought "Hey, maybe I might try this thing called education so that I can do things that these guys are doing in the tv!", but realized that I was still extremely subpar at math and english (not to mention i even sucked at korean - got worse now, but i think i got a little bit better at english), and pretty much everything else, flunked algebra in high school and mostly Cs and rarely Bs on other subjects, and miraculously A in PE hahaha. At the time I knew I had to do something about it, so I asked my parents for help, but sadly got close to none. They hired some tutors for me but it never worked out (you could really tell, the tutors were frustrated at how stupid I was). At some point I realized that I had to take this matter into my own hands - had to start all over from the fundamentals. At which point I actually started reading books, writing, memorizing, solving (math problems), I had to pretty much make up for what people usually learned in their primary school up to jr. high years. I eventually managed to do well in math, improved speaking/writing/reading in english a little bit, trained myself in scientific thinking, got into physics at a university and now I'm working as a software engineer. Buried in financial aid debt... :( The thing about people though... is that we forget quite a lot of things we learned 10 years ago, but the most coolest thing nowadays is that as long as you have a way of getting information into your head, your education only ends at your last breath. Although when I was growing up I hardly saw my father, and my parents never intervened in regards to my education, they were there for moral support, life lessons, and the list goes on. I think that in the near future if I were to have children of my own, first and foremost I'd hope to see them growing up healthy, and that they'd find something they're interested in earlier in their lives, but I'm not sure if it will help to be strict with their education, we'll see.
jlebrech 10y ago
maybe it's just genetics then.
- chillacy 10y ago
  This is where I really wish there were a good dataset of SAT scores of non-asian kids adopted by asian parents. Of course that also runs into the issue of asian-american parents who adopt might be different than the tiger parents.
thomasahle 10y ago
In high school I asked my parents if they'd pay me for hood grades, like I'd seen from some of my friends. Mh parents agreed they'd pay me my GPA, which converted from the Danish grade range and currency meant I could make from 0 to 2 dollars a year.. I actually quite liked that system.
andrewvijay 10y ago
I'm gonna show this to my mom now. Hope she doesnt smack me.
naveen99 10y ago
I had to tell my son something similar as he was terrified of getting detention at school. I told him if he got detention, I'd get him whatever toy he wanted.

304 points by hypertexthero 10y ago

My dad always believed that if you're going to do anything, you should try to be the best at it. In terms of grades I certainly have not seen a positive effect, but I think the reason is I don't value professional education as much as passion learning, which for me is much more rare. The sentiment however has been instilled in me, and when I discover something that I enjoy doing its hard for me to be second place.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> if you're going to do anything, you should try to be the best at it I think this is an admirable heuristic in certain circumstances. It's important to note its perversions. If you're measuring value by social ranking, you're incorporating others' values into your discovery process. This makes it difficult to do anything groundbreakingly unique. How can you be first if you're the only one racing? (Then again, genius versus madness is a retrospective measure.)
- webkike 10y ago
  Perhaps I should change the full phrase to "the best you can be"
  - greendragon 10y ago
    But then the phrase just becomes generic advice everyone gives and provides an easy scapegoat to save face. Don't change it. Or if you must, you could at least dress it up a bit like Feynman http://www.basicfeynman.com/read_letters.html http://www.basicfeynman.com/read_letters.html ("If you have any talent, or any occupation that delights you, do it, and do it to the hilt. Don't ask why, or what difficulties you may get into.") You can weasel your way out of failure with "well that's as good as I can be", it's harder to weasel out with "well I went at this at full force but failed anyway." The latter can also provide some satisfaction that you went as hard as you did, whereas the former just provides resignation. (It's similar to Facebook's "Move fast and break things." It's a great phrase precisely because it's not the same generic advice everyone gives. There are times where it doesn't apply, that's more important than the times it does. Universal for all time advice sucks and is bland.)
- 50CNT 10y ago
  I think it's also flawed when applied to "anything". Realistically, you can only become "best" at a handful of things, even under relaxed scope. You cannot be best at all skills you require to function. However, it often suffices to be reasonably good. Be reasonably good at cleaning. Be reasonably good at cooking, or accounting, or programming, or exercising. Then take these things off your mind, and divert your attention to those skills that comprise your focus.
bsder 10y ago
> My dad always believed that if you're going to do anything, you should try to be the best at it. This is a hard balance. I have found that being very close to the top in many different things you do while only being "the best" in one or two is far more productive and efficient. Often the amount of effort you need to expend to be #1 instead of #2 is exponential. Sometimes it makes sense, but most of the time it doesn't. And, if you are very consistently #2, you often wind up with the top spot more often than you would expect because #1 stumbles. Consistency is consistently underrated. :)
- BeetleB 10y ago
  >This is a hard balance. Probably because it is not at all a balance.
BeetleB 10y ago
>My dad always believed that if you're going to do anything, you should try to be the best at it. My dad would say similar things. Boy, how wrong he was. (Fortunately, he was not pushy about it.) In my years, I have learned the value of making mistakes, and not pursuing the path of minimal mistakes. I have also learned the value of quitting. Always trying to be best in what I pursue would mean I would often pursue the wrong goals. (Tangentially, "Finish what you start" ranks highly on my list of really bad advice). I have also learned the value of "good enough". There are things I passionately want to be the best at. There are other things that have no value for me beyond being "good enough". Our dad's advice would ensure we either do not pursue the latter, or we aim for perfection in it to the expense of other endeavours. Simply put, the advice is good only if you have unlimited time. When you get old enough and can reflect on your past, you'll get a better sense of how much time you have left and what you can accomplish in it. That time is very precious, and it may be in your best interest to be good at many things, as opposed to the best at a few (and poor at the rest).
- pitaa 10y ago
  >(Tangentially, "Finish what you start" ranks highly on my list of really bad advice). I tend to agree. People have told me that they were only doing something because they started it and 'don't want to be a quitter'. My response is always that the concept of a 'quitter' doesn't really exist to anyone but high school football coaches. In the words of Kenny Rogers, "You've got to know when to hold 'em, Know when to fold 'em, Know when to walk away, And know when to run…"
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  My parents - especially my mother - was big on both the, "If you are going to do something, you should try to do it well" and "you should finish what you start". Which led me to not starting some things. I'm still learning when some things are "good enough". I still have the drive to do things "correctly". Which is a real pain when you need to speak a foreign language because you moved! Interestingly, however, I kind of embraced the opposite of "finish what you start" - to the horror of my mother, I'm sure. I tend to work on bits of projects at a time, especially with hobbies. The downside is that occasionally I have a half-finished project that never gets finished. The more I learn to work with it, however, the more I tend to simply have projects (especially art) in various stages of finishing, but they all get finished. Overall, I find my finished projects are better for it.
esturk 10y ago
Are you really 'second to none' at something?
- webkike 10y ago
  At some things definitely.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

Part of the problem is our culture lauds perfectionism as a case of someone caring too much or being too ambitious. That's not what it is. Perfectionism is a failure to optimize across a complex goal space, settling, instead, on ignoring the difficult (and beautifully complex) prioritisation problem in favour of over-optimizing a limited set of easily-defined goals ("getting an A") over longer-run priorities ("being a fulfilled and productive citizen").

twentythree 10y ago
I hadn't heard that before, but I like that way of thinking about it. It reminds me a bit of Goodhart's Law: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure". Good grades might be a good measure of a student's performance, but when we focus on optimizing the grades themselves, they become less useful as a metric. When I was in high school, there were some students who wouldn't take a class if it wasn't weighted, because it would bring down their overall GPA; even if it was an interest of theirs, they were worried that the effect on their class rank would hurt their college admissions chances.
- woodpanel 10y ago
  I wonder how much of that "grade performance inflation" isn't due to changed externals but just due to the ever built-in ways of inter-generational parenting-evolution: It doesn't matter that you are the only sibling graduating, what matters more is that once you've gone PHD you'll (openly/subconciously) put your expectations on display for your kids to see. As a college-grad, how likely would you tolerate ("welcome"), your kids leaving education with a high school diploma?
  - eanzenberg 10y ago
    As a phd, I'd be perfectly fine with my kid(s) finishing with a HS diploma. Why? Well 1st, it would be a lot cheaper for us! 2nd, I wouldn't at all be worried as long as the internal drive is there to further their own education. A lot of people have the idea that once formal education stops the need to learn ceases. In fact, the need to learn should never cease because progress can always be found. What changes is that once formal education stops, learning becomes self-driven. So whether a person has a HS diploma or a phd is irrelevant if their internal drive to progress has stopped.

zodPod 10y ago

This sentiment, while important to remember if you ARE a perfectionist, also sounds like a really slippery slope similar to something like eating right. "Well if I just eat when I'm hungry" you'll find you're frequently "hungry" if you're a certain type of person. That said, if you're a certain type of person, "not being a perfectionist" could be a great avenue for never pulling yourself out of your slump. "I messed up at school" Well, I'm not a perfectionist so that's fine I'll just keep at the same pace. TURNS OUT, that pace wasn't so useful. "I am failing Chemistry" OH WELL. I'm not a perfectionist so it doesn't matter. You can see how this can be a problem as a mantra to a certain type of person.

Normal_gaussian 10y ago
> if I just eat when I'm hungry That is how I lost way too much weight. Got hungry, wasn't able to eat right then by the time I was able to eat I was no longer hungry. I gradually taught myself to eat very little and was very ill because of it. Eating is a slippery slope in all directions.
- 77pt77 10y ago
  Have you ever practiced controlled intermittent fasting?
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    I have since, but not before the incident I was referring to.
cesarbs 10y ago
Exactly, it depends a lot on the kind of person you are. I know my daughter is not a perfectionist. If I offered to reward her if she did badly at school, I'm pretty sure I'd be buying her gifts every week. She does well in school by the way - because we constantly nudge her to. We don't put pressure on her for perfection though, just for decent results.

vtepe 10y ago

I was raised the oppossing camp. The effects: psyche to fix, loneliness and I still have to work in warehouses.

pingec 10y ago

If my parents bought me a present after I had received a bad mark in school when I was a teenager my twisted mind would have interpreted that as a catastrophe, "my god, they really do think I have failed and now they are even trying to bribe me to be better, they must be desperate".

protomyth 10y ago
I'm with you, I would be staring in the mirror having an existential crisis. "What the heck? Are they giving me a thinly disguised participation trophy? They hate participation trophies?!?" I guess know your audience applies to parenting as well as performance.

snowwrestler 10y ago

By the time her father said this to her, she obviously already had strong intrinsic motivation. Her parents just did a good job of managing it. How to create intrinsic motivation is a harder question. There is some research that parents can create it by setting and clearly communicating expectations from an early age. But it's not conclusive. We're clearly deep into nature/nurture territory here.

clbrook 10y ago
This article might help give you some ideas or pathways to discover other ideas on cultivating intrinsic motivation: http://www.edutopia.org/blog/intrinsic-motivation-growth-mindset-writing-amy-conley http://www.edutopia.org/blog/intrinsic-motivation-growth-min...
- q-base 10y ago
  Thanks a lot for that link. Really interesting and a few books now heading my way from Amazon :)

11thEarlOfMar 10y ago

Do you think there is more uncertainty about the future today than there was, say, 50 years ago? Anxiety about school and grades may be an outcome of an increasing sense of uncertainty. The less confident one is about the prospects of the future, the more safety net they will desire. Getting the best possible education is perceived to be the best safety net short of a trust fund. One major difference between 2016 and 1956 is the perceived likelihood (for Americans, anyway) that you'll be able to work on an assembly line, or, a customer support group, or that your white collar job will be done on-shore. My advice to my kids was to seek a profession that could not be sent overseas, one way or the other. Such as dentist or lumberjack :-) But of course, we now have hair transplant robots which bodes poorly for both professions. What it means to me is that navigating the rest of the 21st century requires thoughtfulness, sound analytical skills and a sense of agency. People have to be able to understand the relative impact of all manner of dynamic systems in the world, not just technology, but economics and government, and the way they all interact. Then, they need to plan how to do to stay relevant and execute their plan. Learning that seems like a lot to ask from a public high school education these days, yet, I believe I learned it 40 years ago. What has changed?

sotojuan 10y ago
I wasn't alive in 1956 nor have I studied the 1950s enough to make a valid judgement, but I graduated college this year and high school in 2012 and the attitude was definitely one of uncertainty. If you didn't get X grade or Y internship (or any random thing like that), your chances at a good career were well, uncertain. A lot of people paint the 1950s and early 60s such that you could do okay in high school and not go to a 4-year college and still manage to provide for a middle class family. Can anyone who has studied or otherwise know if this was true? The only thing I can be certain of is that this is only true if you were white.
- pdonis 10y ago
  > If you didn't get X grade or Y internship (or any random thing like that), your chances at a good career were well, uncertain. You left out one thing: if you do get X grade or Y internship, your chances at a good career are still uncertain. There is no magic bullet. > A lot of people paint the 1950s and early 60s such that you could do okay in high school and not go to a 4-year college and still manage to provide for a middle class family. To an extent this was probably true in the US, but the reason was something temporary: there was a huge economic expansion going on in the aftermath of WWII, with new markets being created, and many industries were willing to basically overpay their workers in order to increase production and capture market share. In the US auto industry, for example, most new car sales in the 1950s and 1960s were genuine new sales--families who had never had a car before or who were adding a second (or even third) car they hadn't had before. In that environment, yes, a person with a high school education can have a middle class income, because the cost of his labor is a minor expense compared to the potential value to be captured. In the current US auto industry, by contrast, almost all new car sales are for replacement of previous cars--the market is saturated. That means there is a huge price pressure being exerted, and hence a huge pressure to drive down wages and to automate jobs that used to be done by human workers in order to reduce costs. In this environment, a person with only a high school education is unlikely to have the skills that would make them valuable enough to a company to be able to earn a middle class income. (Note that I said "unlikely"; it's possible to develop such skills without a college education, but statistically few people do.) Does that mean things are more uncertain now? I'm not sure. I said the situation in the 1950s and 1960s was temporary; it was also not the same in all industries. So I don't know that one can make a general statement either way.

yaacov 10y ago

These parents were able to send their kid to NYU, an extremely expensive private college with almost no financial aid. Many of the parents who put insane pressure on their kids to succeed academically do so because they can't afford schools like NYU- they have to get into more competitive schools that offer more financial aid or lower tuitions.

broahmed 10y ago
I'm completely unfamiliar with NYU, but isn't it possible she had outside scholarships or grants?
- morgante 10y ago
  Yes, it's entirely possible. Not to mention that NYU spends literally hundreds of millions of dollars on financial aid every year. Hardly "almost no financial aid."
  - 24gttghh 10y ago
    Which does not necessarily imply that money is being well spent...UCLA costs less than half [0] of what NYU asks, and has a smaller endowment per student. What I read from those numbers, is that UCLA gets less money and does more with it. [0]http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/09/17/upshot/top-colleges-doing-the-most-for-low-income-students.html http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/09/17/upshot/top-col...
    - morgante 10y ago
      That's all well and good. One can criticize NYU's financial aid policies, but to assume that an NYU student is wealthy without knowing anything about them is preposterous.
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drakonka 10y ago

I have experienced both types of approaches from my family. As a kid attending school in Ukraine we had classes 6 days a week and hours of homework each day. My grandmother was a teacher before retirement - I remember her having some very harsh words over my late nights doing math homework in 3rd-5th grade (I can't remember why but in my school there was no 4th grade, everyone in my class went from 3rd into 5th). I just could not get long division for the longest time - there was yelling and tears. When my family (not including grandparents) moved to the U.S., my parents noticeably loosened up. I think it was because they didn't feel like they had to chase after me to do well so much anymore. They were kind of caught off guard by the school system. Math was the most important, but the stuff we were learning in math at the U.S. school were things we learned long ago in Ukraine so to them it looked like I was doing well and needed no chasing. In truth I was only doing well because my grandmother made me drill math so hard in Ukraine in prior years! Unfortunately when in later years what we learned in American schools started to overtake what I had already known from Ukrainian schools, the relaxed attitude began to show in my grades. Perfect scores slipped to mid-lower 90s, then to Bs, and even some Cs. I remember failing one test - still can't remember why, even my teacher was shocked. I ended up graduating high school with "above average" grades, but nowhere near as good as they would've been had my grandmother kept charge of my learning. While I don't miss my grandmother's yelling, I do wish my parents were a bit more strict back then (and at the same time realize that my lack of motivation in school was entirely my fault). I turned out ok, but feel like having a stronger grasp of math and more structured study habits would've been very beneficial later in life.

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fossuser 10y ago
Coming from the other extreme where I had very little control of my life I'm not sure strict parents yelling at you a lot is a better motivator. If anything I'd get an emotional response to do the opposite even if rationally I knew I should be studying or preparing for something. Some autonomy to have your own life is preferred. It's with some irony that I largely have the job I do now because I ignored my mom and messed around with linux instead of constantly preparing for medschool. Though I did end up doing pre-med reqs in addition to CS anyway.

agentgt 10y ago

The work ethic correlation with suicide at the end of the article in a common sense way is sort of sound but it also begs the question: "maybe some cultures are more comfortable with suicide" (a->b) instead of idea of the author has "since asians work harder/have higher expectations more asians must commit suicide" (a->b->c). Obviously the author has the stats that asians are in more prestigious schools but that doesn't necessarily mean they are pressured more or that they are consequently more likely to commit suicide. For example you could have devout catholics that have the same work pressures and stressors but would never commit suicide (I don't know if that is true but I'm not sure about the authors position either).

agentgt 10y ago
I noticed I got downvoted and now I'm terrible nervous I offended someone. I wish downvoters would comment (I have never downvoted anyone on any forum without a comment). I don't mind disagreement of opinion even if it deserves downvotes but I'm concerned if I offended anyone. All I meant is that the expectation of parents of the culture reference in the article might not entirely be the cause of the higher % of suicides.
- chillacy 10y ago
  I did not downvote you and as of right now you're comment seems to be hovering around positive points, but I do have some thoughts. Keep in mind that even though college aged AAs have higher than average suicide ideation, the suicide rate of all AAs is half the national average: http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/ethnicity-health/asian-american/suicide.aspx http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/ethnicity-health/asian-... In fact from the stats, being engaged in the AA community tends to reduce the likelihood of suicide. That aligns with what I've seen myself from my parents and my friend's parents.
  - agentgt 10y ago
    But that goes against subtle hinting of the article of parenting being the cause of suicide. If it were parenting wouldn't suicide be high earlier as well (before college)? Maybe it isn't cultural within families but peer social groups that are setting the bar too high. I'm arguing the stress may not actually be from the parents but the desire to fit in with others in the group.

stirner 10y ago

As others in the NYT and HN comments have said, the best parenting strategy seems to depend on the psychology of the kid. My parents were more or less in the pussycat camp, which led me to put an enormous amount of pressure on myself as I felt like they just said that to be nice, because they knew I was "gifted" and would ultimately do "what they really wanted". It wasn't good for me mental health wise.

electriclove 10y ago

I agree with the sentiment and hope to raise my children without tiger parent pressure. Though graduating with a psychology degree and studying copywriting seems to make for a tough life ahead. I certainly don't want my child to "have to break [their] neck to make a living", but it seems like that might end up being the case here anyways.

lr4444lr 10y ago

That motivation may have been contextually valuable for Ms. Chia, but speaking as a former teacher, the majority of American students would probably benefit from parenting that sits further down toward the "Tiger Mom" end of the parenting spectrum. Not off the deep end, of course, but definitely further than at present.

cesarbs 10y ago
> former teacher Sorry but I'm going to be that person :) How much do you think parents should be involved with kids' homework? My wife and I got tired of the daily battles with our 3rd grader over homework. Until a few days ago one of us would review it at home and point out any mistakes. The response to any mistake was a fit of rage. Our daughter gets extremely frustrated whenever we point out she did something wrong. So we decided to try a different approach. We told her we won't review her homework anymore, unless she explicitly asks us to. Her end of the deal is that at the end of the week she has to read her teacher's feedback and take note of what she got wrong, and figure out how she could have gotten it right. Do you think it might be a good strategy?
- lr4444lr 10y ago
  I'll preface by saying that most issues surrounding homework are in general very debatable, and even the best educational research (which is not great) suggests a lot of age and subject dependent policy variation. And even the individual teacher and his or her relation with your daughter are confounding variables, not to mention whatever lessons in values and character building you and your wife might have, so this answer comes with a lot of unstated speculation on my part. It sounds like the original interaction you had with her consisted purely of negative reinforcement. That rarely produces the long term results loving parents want, even in very obedient kids. Your second approach is fine for a child who is either mature or has significant intrinsic motivation. A weekly assessment is a good frequency, but you're leaving it entirely up to her to report, and she seems to have the option to give you no feedback. Can you trust her not to slack off and surprise you with an unacceptable grade at the next test? Maybe you can; I don't know your child. Maybe she's naturally bright in the subject, or can at least pull her act together and study hard enough when test time comes around. Do you expect 100% mastery on each assignment? Not every mistake reflects a gap in knowledge or conceptual understanding, and the smartest children are often the most acutely aware of when they're penalized for careless errors or unnecessary formalism. That's not to say diligence and tolerating unliked procedures are bad lessons to learn either, but a good teacher can distinguish from the nature of the error what kind of feedback to give. I realize I'm raising more questions and factors instead of answering directly, because I'm trying to convey that parents should grow more sensitive in general to the academic behaviors and values their rules encourage. Be ready to iterate on your strategy (maybe 1 month of weekly feedback) make sure you're able to get reliable feedback. If you wanted a more proactive suggestion, why have her demonstrate her knowledge around homework at all? Typical 3rd grade psych. development sees children still interestep in showing their parents their accomplishments to seek their approval across the board. What if when you see her in a good mood, and not engrossed in something else, like around the dinner table in casual conversation, you ask her to teach _you_ something new she learned in class that day? (Maybe start with other subjects if the homework one is too sensitive.) Feign surprise and gratitude, as if she really taught you something new. Having to reexplain content knowledge in one's own words from memory is a very powerful retention technique.

honkhonkpants 10y ago

Had to think for a bit about the sign or direction of "or lower". A and B are less than C in my everyday existence.

unabst 10y ago

In Japan perfectionism is not encouraged. The rough translation kanpeki shugi (完璧主義) will bring up more ways to fix it than become it on the first page of google. What the Japanese culture and other Asian cultures similarly encourage however is discipline (majime, まじめ), and the proper way (matomo, まとも）. This means parents instill time management (basically they force kids to take the time to study) and procedure (study environment, tools, focus, resources). This is the true cultural advantage. With regards to suicide, this too can be correlated to culture with statistics, but it has nothing to do with perfectionism. I would attribute it more to their naivety when it comes to mental well being, and to self sacrifice. In other words, they think it's okay to suffer and sacrifice their mental health far past the safe line, and fare more than most would permit in the west. In Japan, your "self" takes a back seat to the onus of being the majime and matomo Japanese citizen. The answer is to learn time management, discipline, and procedure, but while staying healthy, both physically and mentally. That's what OP's father did. He made sure his daughter's mental health was okay. That's what parents ought to do, and he deserves all the credit in the world.

cJ0th 10y ago
> This is the true cultural advantage. But is it? I admit, eastern cultures are fascinating to study but I believe if you pick an average citizen of Japan and compare him/her with an average person of some western country you'll find both persons despite their different backgrounds surprisingly similar. You may criticize how math is taught in the US and argue how, for example, Korea does a better job but in the end both countries excel at delivering high tech goods. Overall, there is not so much difference here. So I wonder whether we just create differences by looking for them.
teek 10y ago
I'm not so sure what you're defining is completely different. Doing things the "right way" in Japan and other east asian cultures has more or less the same effect as trying to be "perfect" in American culture. The effect is both cultures encourage the individual to act in a manner they may not accept themselves. The difference being that in a conformist culture the avenues for self expression are limited by culture and society. In an ambition oriented culture the concept of "failure" has the same damaging effects. This isn't to say that both traits, conformity and perfection are inherently bad, instead we should be teaching the purpose or reason to do so rather than blindly require the behavior without justification.

tomcam 10y ago

What amazing parents. I know Asian parents well, and this is utterly extraordinary.

gohrt 10y ago

> Kate Chia, a 2015 graduate of New York University [with a degree in Psychology], is studying copywriting at Miami Ad School. Not sure we should be looking to this person's story as a role model.

toomanybeersies 10y ago

I seem to be saying it even more, but once again I must state that perfect is the enemy of good. Often people strive for perfection in their grades, to the detriment of their finances, friendships, and personal development. It happened to several people I know, they'd lock themselves away and study for hours instead of being social and forging relationships (which in the real world outside university are a lot more important than grades). At the end of the day, everyone gets the same Degree (unless you're doing honours, where there are grades). It doesn't really matter what your grades were if you can network yourself into a job instead.

alextheparrot 10y ago

My parents and collegiate experiences were much like the author's. I would call them asking for advice, only for them to ask about how I'm pursuing happiness. That openness and lack of using perfection as a goal allowed me to pursue first (pre-)medicine, then (pre-)graduate school (Biochemistry), and finally Computer Science throughout college. After four years, I found myself with two majors (Biochemistry and CS) and can only thank my parents for not pushing me in one direction, as I've never been happier as I am now developing software in the biotech space.

blahblah3 10y ago

In my experience, asian parents tend to vastly underestimate the importance of genetics that predetermine a child's strengths and dispositions. Kids that are born with some combination of great working memory, processing speed, and abstract reasoning ability will do fine at math and science with an order of magnitude less effort than others. For these kids, being pushed to perfection in school can be beneficial. For others, the expectation that they need to do as well as the other kid on the SATs or in engineering or medicine or whatever often leads to the problems the author describes (suicidal ideation, depression, etc...). Sure, everyone should be encouraged to try their best but there needs to be more focus on cultivating everyone's unique strengths. Often times the people getting perfect SAT scores aren't studying any more than others (in my experience, less), yet asian parents will tend to believe that their kid's imperfect score is due merely to a lack of effort.

augustt 10y ago
Interesting - to me, it seems like asian parents have recognized that genetics have less of a role than you might think. When I look at math contest results (in the US), asian kids are completely dominating. Either asian kids are just inherently better at math (probably not), or their parents have realized that they can instill the work ethic and studiousness to produce these results even if their kid isn't a natural genius.
- blahblah3 10y ago
  Yes, preparation makes a big difference in math olympiad but most of those competing at a high level are already very talented to begin with. The problem is when a parent expects their kid to achieve similar performance when they don't have the raw skills. By attributing no role to inherent ability, blame is always put solely on the child for not trying hard enough. Even within a given family, you'll notice that some kids are better much more talented than their brothers or sisters at a given task, and the difference is not really preparation (especially since these differences can often be seen at a very young age).
  - jiaweihli 10y ago

shurcooL 10y ago

This phenomenon reminds me of what it's like to send PRs to a project, hoping it gets approved and merged ASAP... Then being given push rights, and suddenly finding yourself on the other side of the fence: hoping PRs are reviewed very rigorously and merged only after much scrutiny, to keep the code quality and maintainability up, scope low, etc.

haloboy777 10y ago

That was a very good clickbait for me as a college student.

supergetting 10y ago

When I was a 3rd grader in South Korea I had the hardest time solving the simplest arithmetic problems. My teacher used to keep me after hours as a punishment until I was able to solve them. I think it was literally something like "2+3-3+2+2-100+39". You could say that I was pretty much in the opposite end of "exceptional" on any subject — was NEVER serious about school back then and completely ignorant of education (probably didn't even know what this meant). To me school was a place where I went to hang out with friends for 7 to 8 hours, and yet, I don't remember my parents doing anything about it, not even a light discussion about my education. This went on for several years even during my early school years in the U.S. (my family immigrated in the middle of my 3rd grade year). It was only when I started watching stargate and other scifi movies/tvshows that I got interested in science and technology, and thought "Hey, maybe I might try this thing called education so that I can do things that these guys are doing in the tv!", but realized that I was still extremely subpar at math and english (not to mention i even sucked at korean - got worse now, but i think i got a little bit better at english), and pretty much everything else, flunked algebra in high school and mostly Cs and rarely Bs on other subjects, and miraculously A in PE hahaha. At the time I knew I had to do something about it, so I asked my parents for help, but sadly got close to none. They hired some tutors for me but it never worked out (you could really tell, the tutors were frustrated at how stupid I was). At some point I realized that I had to take this matter into my own hands - had to start all over from the fundamentals. At which point I actually started reading books, writing, memorizing, solving (math problems), I had to pretty much make up for what people usually learned in their primary school up to jr. high years. I eventually managed to do well in math, improved speaking/writing/reading in english a little bit, trained myself in scientific thinking, got into physics at a university and now I'm working as a software engineer. Buried in financial aid debt... :( The thing about people though... is that we forget quite a lot of things we learned 10 years ago, but the most coolest thing nowadays is that as long as you have a way of getting information into your head, your education only ends at your last breath. Although when I was growing up I hardly saw my father, and my parents never intervened in regards to my education, they were there for moral support, life lessons, and the list goes on. I think that in the near future if I were to have children of my own, first and foremost I'd hope to see them growing up healthy, and that they'd find something they're interested in earlier in their lives, but I'm not sure if it will help to be strict with their education, we'll see.

jlebrech 10y ago

maybe it's just genetics then.

chillacy 10y ago
This is where I really wish there were a good dataset of SAT scores of non-asian kids adopted by asian parents. Of course that also runs into the issue of asian-american parents who adopt might be different than the tiger parents.

thomasahle 10y ago

In high school I asked my parents if they'd pay me for hood grades, like I'd seen from some of my friends. Mh parents agreed they'd pay me my GPA, which converted from the Danish grade range and currency meant I could make from 0 to 2 dollars a year.. I actually quite liked that system.

andrewvijay 10y ago

I'm gonna show this to my mom now. Hope she doesnt smack me.

naveen99 10y ago

I had to tell my son something similar as he was terrified of getting detention at school. I told him if he got detention, I'd get him whatever toy he wanted.