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I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more th

• csomar 10y ago
  You mention disability. May I understand what is exactly preventing you from doing productive hours?
• NhanH 10y ago
  Please don't read into this post and the questions any more deeply than the surface, I do not have any intended judgement nor intend to imply anything. I'm trying to understand your post: I got your situation, but I'm missing the bigger points you are making. > How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense. What do you mean with "people like you"? What is your problem? I'm taking the first paragraph to mean depress or some related disorder, but then you have > In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary. Do you mean this would be a more systematic issue due to changes in labor requirements? Or that we currently have a shitty situation in job finding?
  • jokoon 10y ago
    > What is your problem? I'm the archetype loser. > Or that we currently have a shitty situation in job finding? I think companies don't care about the candidate they are looking for. Of course it's a market, but it's not well "regulated". Nobody really knows who is available for what, and due to that, companies can't really hire properly. If there were an actual database of candidates, and if there were better profiling, and less job websites, maybe things would be much smoother. The job market is a complete anarchy. I would be glad to give $500 to a company so that this company can find me a good job that I will keep for 6 months. That would be an awesome investment. Yet this doesn't seem to exist for some reason.
    • tudelo 10y ago
      Then they would have to find you a job. I mean no offense, but there is no job that exists for someone who is 31 and held a job for no longer than a month.
    • throwaway1892 10y ago
      Linkedin seems a good enough database of candidates, with the number of offer I receive every month. But you need some keyword plus completed projects/employments
• muninn_ 10y ago
  Have you considered coming to study in the United States and obtaining a bachelor's degree? Software development is in high demand in all aspects here. At worst you get a break from your current life, at best you start a new one. Let me know if you want to chat more.
  • bigmanwalter 10y ago
    I mean, $40,000 of student debt sounds like a great way to motivate someone to find work, but I don't think it's an ideal way to solve his problems.
    • wernercd 10y ago
      $40k in debts to earn $80k+ per year for the rest of your life? Sounds like a good trade-off to me...
      • mfoy_ 10y ago
        Well stated like that it sounds like a good deal, but that statement makes a list of assumptions as long as my arm that quite simply are not guaranteed.
        • muninn_ 10y ago
          Well in this context we're talking about software dev so. College graduates still makes a lot more over their lifetimes, debt or not, than high school grads.
          • bigmanwalter 10y ago
            For starters, OP says that he has health issues. That makes it much more difficult to hold a full-time job. If he can only work part time, he would be stuck earning far below the full-time market rate. As total annual revenue decreases, the time required to pay off that debt, along with the total amount of interest paid servicing it, goes up exponentially. Going to university isn't always a guaranteed win.
• andrepd 10y ago
  >The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to death. It seems to me to be a gigantic sense of entitlement, that you deride people who work and brag about not looking for a job and complain about being called lazy, when in fact those people are the ones paying for your food so you can lounge about your house and paint and what else. Unless you have a legitimate disability, yeah, that pisses me off.
  • brookside 10y ago
    This exactly.
  • secstate 10y ago
    I think the problem with your statement is that the Information Revolution came with a philosophy that automation would end the need for 9-5 Industrial Revolution ideas of work. It hasn't, and we're still working 40 hours a week, but now it's to support the consumption machine that WWII created. Do we really need new original Netflix programming? Do we need whatever crazy-ass pumpkin and coffee flavored beverage a hard working soul at Starbucks or Tim Horton's has cooked up for the fall season? Do we need bigger, cheaper televisions? Faster computers? A new diet craze? A new exercise regime that will be better than the last? Where does this end? Not to be overly dramatic on a Monday morning, but where are we going with our hustle and drive? When you stop and meditate on that, you realize that to feed, house and clothe us requires 10% of the energy we burn every day, but not if we expect a hedonistic lifestyle where you eat something new, fresh and delicious everyday. I'm not free of that expectation either, so that's not a judgement, just an observation.
    • clifanatic 10y ago
      > Do we really need new original Netflix programming? Do we need whatever crazy-ass pumpkin and coffee flavored beverage a hard working soul at Starbucks or Tim Horton's has cooked up for the fall season? My wife does...
• reverend_gonzo 10y ago
  Maybe I'm missing something here, but you seem to contradict yourself: The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. If you're happy sitting at home and drawing, and you can pay your bills and survive in that manner, more power to you, but it seems you're not happy doing that. From what you write, it seems that you want someone to just give you a job, without you really having to going put in the effort to work for it. You say you're also training to be an army reservist, which implies that you're at least physically fit, and you know how to code, so you're at least mentally capable, so I'm guessing the disability is related to something like depression. Now, I have no intention to knock depression, but it is on you to figure out how you can live that will satisfy you and provide your needs, whether it is working a corporate job, working in a field or being an artist. But the way you describe yourself, I think the majority of people would classify you as being lazy, and I would say they are right to do so.
  • jokoon 10y ago
    Sure I contradict myself, and I know that. My issue is how people have been transformed into labor machines. Being rated by a salary is meek metric to begin with. That's a problem of principle. > I think the majority of people would classify you as being lazy, and I would say they are right to do so. And they would, but until you can find a good reason for me to contribute to a society, I would call that relatively low motivation. If I have to beg to get a job, and if it is literally work to find a job, then it is not going to make a lot of sense to me since I am not legally obligated to work. If there is actual unemployment, but there are no simple jobs to do, then maybe laziness is not the problem, maybe it's something else. It's so biblical to call somebody lazy. > without you really having to going put in the effort to work for it In the current system you will get removed instantly if you are not competitive enough or take a little too much time to work on something. That's how capitalism works: only the numbers matter. People are not machines. Competition can be a problem if it becomes more important than cooperation. Unemployment is the failure of cooperation.
    • reverend_gonzo 10y ago
• barrkel 10y ago
  Poe's law strikes again. Nobody owes you a living. "Contributing to the labour force" isn't a religion; it is a necessary condition of life, without which we starve. There's no free lunch. I think that, to protect your ego against accusations of laziness, you've projected this idea of society as a pointless activity, so you can defend to yourself your choices. It is self-delusional.
  • kakarot 10y ago
    Fa real, it's like people think if society didn't exist everything would be better and we wouldn't be scrounging for basic necessities on a daily basis, without much time for lofty pursuits.
    • c0nducktr 10y ago
      Nobody is calling for getting rid of society.
  • pjc50 10y ago
    "Contributing to the labour force" isn't a religion; it is a necessary condition of life, without which we starve. .. and that's why we turn pensioners out into the snow once they cease contributing. Oh, wait, no we don't, because we recognise that they're human beings and members of society.
    • zer0gravity 10y ago
      A quote from Jack Sparrow ( and I don't think it's a coincidence that it comes form a pirate, but that doesn't make it imoral, as long as it stands the test of reality ) : "There is no good or bad, it's only what you can or you cannot do". Everyone will act in it's best interest, according to the possibilites that is has available. Those possibilites are refined by the feedback from the other members of society.
    • jazzyk 10y ago
      Pensioners contributed through all their life to society and when they retire, it is expected that they are taken care of. The OP is talking about cases where you are not in retirement, and not disabled, the society expects you to pull your own weight. It is only fair, no?
• fizzbatter 10y ago
  > I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not. I mean, to a degree i can understand what you mean. We are seeking happiness in the treadmill and that rarely seems to bring it. We hope that after the treadmill there will be happiness, but few are sure of that. My problem though, with what i took from your words, was that it sounds like you believe work is becoming less and less required. I don't feel that's true, unfortunately. I think that will become true, in time, but we don't have the technology to automate the work we need to. Sure, we have various factory line jobs replaces with robotics, and we're working on lots of general replacement (Taxis, for example), but most of the labor force, even "just" manual labor, requires specific intensive understanding that we are not even close to replicating with robotics. Hell, we're still struggling to walk easily and effectively. Sure, walking robots are becoming more natural and skilled, but it's definitely still a WIP. My robotics leap may have seemed odd, but that's what i believe is required before your comment holds true. Work will always be required - there is no doubt about that. Someone, some thing, will be doing work. And humanity will only be able to ignore work once we've enslaved something else to do it for us. So back to topic, i think part of the stress you feel from society is a bit of a "i have to do it, so you have to do it" thing. Why should you get to do what you like, when others so clearly cant? You could argue that we're all expecting too much, we don't need the gadgets/etc, and that living very frugal can be a means to happiness, but living frugal doesn't absolve yourself from work. The frugal lives of the world still work. Some may not work as hard, some may have much more free time, but there's still work to be done. You still have to learn the trades to repair your stuff, or pay someone else to do it for you. To grow your food, or to pay someone else to. And etc. I'm not trying to come off aggressive, so i hope it doesn't seem that way. Perhaps i'm missing your point, but the statement of: > ... and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary. Seems very very foreign to me.
  • kazagistar 10y ago
    Work seems to be becoming zero sum competition, which is inherently nonproductive. Advertising, shitty flashlight apps, sales, much financial work, etc; we could drop many of these with little to no negate impact on productivity in society. These jobs exist because useful work is running out, so people are hiring extra labor to fight over their slice of the pie.
• zer0gravity 10y ago
  I think I resonate with you. I think that the number one occupation we should have is to live our lives. The way we do this should be according to our values and not neccesarily to how others think we should. Now, life has a mechanistic component driven by neccesities and an artistic one driven by ideals, self expression and pleasure. The promised goal of modern technology was that a large part of the rutined work covering the neccesities of life would be outsourced to machines while humans could occupy themselves with the more pleasurable aspects of life.. I'm not sure if many realize, but in such a world very few would actually work. All the rest will play. This is what AI will make a reality, and the job market needs a radical reform. We should all prepare to transition from a work based paradigm to a play based paradigm. If you're doing it already good to you. The subject is vast and has multiple implications but that's all I could distill in a HN post.
  • reverend_gonzo 10y ago
    I'm not sure if many realize, but in such a world very few would actually work. All the rest will play. Okay, so who decides who will work and who will play? Why should I bust my ass all day working, while you just live however you want to? Right now, the reason some people bust their ass working, is being they can get paid more and live a higher quality of life. If everybody get everything they want, why would anyone work?
    • zer0gravity 10y ago
      It all boils down to the play of intrinsic/forced choices. But remember, AI may change things a lot. It'll not be a problem of you will work so I can sit, but more a problem of you and I will have some machines working for us, so what's left for us to do.. One of the implications I was talking about, is that the human psyche is built to function under survival pressure, when the pressure is removed, then depression may occur. So it's going to be very tricky, unless we train ourselves to function in a different mode.. where we are the masters.
    • kazagistar 10y ago
      Because if you bust your ass, you can put more then food on your table.
• seszett 10y ago
  Do you have personal projects though? I know a few people who have used a long disability/unemployment period as an opportunity to work on one project while receiving enough money to survive without needing immediate profitability. Having a degree doesn't have anything to do with that, either. I'm not in your place so I'm not saying you should do it, or even that I would actually do that if it were me. But I think I would try to consider this as an opportunity. On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem with people being supported without doing productive work, because that's the way some of the greatest artists, inventors or scientists have been able to do their thing in the past. I think universal basic income is the answer to this situation. The fact that you are (apparently) able to survive in our society without being a productive worker seems to be proof that society doesn't need everyone to be workers, contrary to what current politicians (at least in France) say about work, and how having a job seems to be the most important part of life and of citizenship. While the most important thing should just be taking part in society, and having a job clearly doesn't help with that unless you think society is just a large company, which is wrong. Anyway, just don't forget that a lot of people don't have a problem with others staying at home to paint, draw, write or think. Society isn't blaming you for being lazy, only most of its rulers are, and those people who listen too much to them. It's not easy, but try not to get too influenced by the opinions you keep hearing in public medias, because they're all run by people who have an interest in having citizens think they have to work.
  • jokoon 10y ago
    I do have personal projects, but they're ambitious and I tend to lack the experience and the proper motivation to work at home.
• throwawayIndian 10y ago
  Dude, I can understand what you're saying here! Those who haven't lived through a depression will never understand your plight and obviously not be able to "see" the challenges you face -- how oddly suppressed your voice is against this entire world -- but walk out of this ditch right now. It is going to kill you and even then the world will not understand your pain because it's designed that way. You don't have to contribute or be a part of the machinery. Do not feed the for-profit machinery that you, like many of us, sorely dislike. Go into non-profit mode perhaps?: help a charity, give shelter to other underprivileged people or may be start an open source movement to make the machinery bleed. Don't just sit and lose these moments explaining your situation to people who're blind and deaf and presumably dumb. They'll never see. They'll never see until this depression hits them for reasons of their own.
  • return0 10y ago
    If it's depression that causes demotivation how will "going nonprofit" be more motivating? I think you need to fix the depression issue first.
    • throwawayIndian 10y ago
      > how will "going nonprofit" be more motivating? It may not!, but usually healing others is also self-healing. One has to figure this path for themselves. > I think you need to fix the depression issue first. Absolutely! However, solving inability to work is equally important. Otherwise the patient will fall back into a depression again. P.S: The comments above were for OP's inability to work, find work or be motivated about it. It isn't a solution for depression, which obviously needs thorough professional or medical help.
• Allower 10y ago
  You are being lazy, stop making excuses for your lack of action. You can help people, you have skills, use them. You will try many things and fail at most, thats life, keep trying. Its the same it was for your father and his father before him and so on. Sure the environment and scenarios are different but the underlying forces at work are all the same. Human civilization only continues because people bust there ass trying to make something useful for other people. You are 100% correct, society is a giant treadmill, its not really going anywhere, its simply surviving, but it provides an amazing depth and diversity of subjects and fields to explore and find meaning within. Your problem isn't an intellectual problem, you aren't going to think your way to a satisfying life. You find satisfaction by not thinking about life, by finding things you can do without having to dwell on the terrible realities that are as much a part of life as the transcendent experiences.
• return0 10y ago
  You can always choose a slow life, somewhere in the country with a few chicken. At least your idleness is not burdening others that way.
• logicallee 10y ago
  People respond to incentives. You (specifically you) get paid to be disabled. If the government started paying people to have an urge to eat artificially shit-flavored desserts (which is obviously a mental issue, since it's disgusting) then as soon as word got out, we would have a new epidemic of people with an inexplicable obsession to eat artificially shit-flavored desserts, making them unsuitable to integrate and join any workforce. That is not comfortable, it's not a nice, idle living, eating artificial shit-flavoring. But if that's what the government is paying for, some people will do it. your English is good, given your skills background if you applied to 1,000 junior software dev positions (which would take you less than a year at the lowly pace of three per day) you would be employed in short order. But nobody is paying you to do that. You are, however, being paid to be disabled. your comment is simply an example of people responding to incentives. - Disclaimer: please don't respond to this comment. since I expect a bunch of responses from you let me preempt them by saying that I don't believe the above (or it's a joke) and I just copied it from a neo-Nazi web site, it's obviously completely wrong and not worth responding to, thanks. I just wanted to give it an example of what people say who are literally worse than Hitler. don't respond. I will just say that you're obviously completely right in every way and your response wasn't worth writing.
  • mfoy_ 10y ago
    If you're going to play Devil's advocate, at least put some effort into it.
    • logicallee 10y ago
      I asked people not to reply to the comment, thanks.
      • mfoy_ 10y ago
        Which is part of my criticism of your post. You can't just say something inflammatory and walk away mic-drop style. That's not a constructive comment. That's also not how message boards work.
• swannicus 10y ago
  Being productive is an important part of life, though there isn't anything wrong with taking time off being productive to deal with an illness or build skills. I'd suggest focusing on self-care and getting your depression under control. Most people with mental illness will have it all their lives, its about getting it to a level that doesn't prevent you from enjoying life. Having no motivation and feeling exhausted are pretty detrimental to enjoying life. Although you said you are training to be a military reservist which sounds like it could be a great opportunity.
• elementalest 10y ago
  I had a discussion with OP in the past [1]. It basically boils down to him believing society has advanced to the point where not every one has to work (due to automation etc). Basic income (BI) should therefore be implemented and the societal perception of idleness/laziness be removed for people who don't work. The OP's motivation for this stance seems to be partially to justify his stance for ceasing search for work. While OP's circumstances seem to work for him (living with parents, welfare support), he does not understand that it wont work for the majority of people. He is basically wanting society to already behave as if BI has been implemented. I can understand that the OP is getting tired of job hunting. It makes sense he believes working is not necessary and I actually agree with the OP somewhat. However, I think the only reason he has this stance is because of his difficulty in finding a job. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11322640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11322640
  • jokoon 10y ago
    > However, I think the only reason he has this stance is because of his difficulty in finding a job. I could work at mcdonalds. The problem I have is how we tend to reward some attitudes, which to me seems weird. I have a huge problem with the job interview process and how I'm advised to behave or not. It sounds like I'm on some reality TV. And still, getting a job is one thing that could solve many of social problems, meaning socializing.
• gaius 10y ago
  Out of curiosity what condition leaves you unable to work in tech but able to serve in the army? And in which branch?
  • jokoon 10y ago
    That's a weird thing. I have no visible or serious mental disability, but I was given the status of "handicapped worker". A panel of experts examine your file and decide to give it to you or not. It does not entitles me to money, but companies must have 6% of handicapped personnel or they must pay some small fine. It's in the "armee de terre", meaning ground army. It's not the usual army training, since it's the reserve. It's only a 2 week training.
• adamredwoods 10y ago
  > What kills me even more is the whole "get motivated" movement. I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not. I agree with you on some levels, this idea of ultra-productiveness is a religion. I would rather see high levels of productiveness to WORK LESS and ENJOY LIFE more. I'd love to work a 30-hour week so I can pursue other interests. Instead, ultra-productiveness is causing a burnout loop of WORK MORE to allow more time to WORK MORE. But this is all pointless. In the future, the amount of lazy people will be astronomical as robots and computers take over 99% of jobs.
• rini17 10y ago
  I think what you wrote is 99% about your cultural conditioning. I know the depression makes it even harder, but you should try to forget what everyone says and just paint or write something. Do something not because people expect it but because it has some value for you. There is always something to do for oneself, no matter how small. Every day. -- Just 2 eurocents from fellow european. I have had my share of handicap and exclusion, it took long arduous years but now I can stay idle whenever I want and not give a fuck about people thinking what I should be doing instead.