20 ms·

Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

163 points by stefap2 10y ago

brohee 10y ago
Comparing those numbers with Europe, whose safety net doesn't usually require people to pretend being disabled, would have been enlightening. A missed opportunity.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  you are describing small part of europe, that's getting even smaller. just give immigration a bit of time
  - denzil_correa 10y ago
    > you are describing small part of europe, that's getting even smaller. How small? > just give immigration a bit of time Do you have a time frame? How will it effect?
    - throwaway1892 10y ago
      > How will it effect? My guess is that the increase number of immigrants in Western Europe will cause a reduction in social benefits
      - denzil_correa 10y ago
        How? Without immigrants, the social benefit system would reduce anyways because there aren't enough young people to pay into the system. In addition, both low and high skilled migrants increase productivity and per capita GDP in advanced economies (Source : IMF) [0]. [0] http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2016/02/pdf/c4.pdf http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2016/02/pdf/c4.pdf
        throwaway1892 10y ago
        From the linked paper: "The stock of refugees has a stronger presence of children; in 2015, for instance, more than half of refugees were under the age of 18." So a part of the migrants would not influence positively the GDP for a few years and put more pressure on public welfare system, as well as public schools and hospitals. Also I think that, whether low or high skilled, when you have high unemployment rate (above 10%), more workers just mean more people unemployed, so more social benefits, that the various welfare states won't be able to assume, since they all are in deficit. Also can you point in the document where this affirmation is made?
        denzil_correa 10y ago
        Right there in the abstract > a common theme is that, despite the negative short-term impact on recipient economies, they offer potential gains in the long term. In addition, Figure 4.21 (and surrounding text) explicitly mentions the positive longer term growth effects due to migrants. > So a part of the migrants would not influence positively the GDP for a few years and put more pressure on public welfare system, as well as public schools and hospitals. That is assuming the current system is not good enough. > whether low or high skilled, when you have high unemployment rate (above 10%), Generally, migrants move to countries with opportunities.
        throwaway1892 10y ago
        Ok, thank you for the information. > That is assuming the current system is not good enough. Where I am, the current system seems sorely lacking, for example regarding the number of homeless, social mobility, existing public infrastructure, education, healthcare... > Generally, migrants move to countries with opportunities. Apparently 10% of unemployment is enough of an opportunity for migrant going to Western Europe (Spain: 22.7%, France: 10.5%, Italy: 12.4%, Greece: 25.6, Portugal: 13%...). But I think the migrants going in those countries are mostly refugees, which might not stay long term, so not providing the economic benefits you talked about. Edit: So, it is possible that the afflux of refugees in Western Europe will cause a diminution of social benefits since it would strain even more a failing system and not provide any long term economic benefit since they would have gone back home, once the crisis finished (and I hope it will end before long). Edit II: assuming, of course, that the majority of migrants arriving in Europe are refugees, which seems to be supported by the figures provided by the documents ("The European Union also received an unparalleled number of refugees recently—about 1.25 million first-time asylum " p. 14).
    - throwaway1892 10y ago
      Another hypothesis (on how the migrants might cause the disappearance of welfare state in Western Europe): The society that created the welfare state is particular enough that the change contributed by the influx of immigrants might change the society to a point where the welfare state disappear. It's more of a social change than an economical one. In that case, it's on a long time frame (decades at least), where my other hypothesis is more political and economic and is shorter, around a decade.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Depending on whether or not you count the UK as "Europe", I believe the same thing has happened here for much the same reasons. http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/default/files/jrf/migrated/files/spr5108.pdf http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/default/files/jrf/migrated/files... "What seems to have happened is that the employment threshold has gradually moved down the severity scale, so that men and women with middle-severity impairments who would have been employed in the 1970s are now out of work and receiving incapacity benefits"
  - istjohn 10y ago
    This is unfortunate not only for reasons of productivity losses, but also because the sense of belonging and agency that goes with employment can be a great boon to one's mental health and mental disorders are cited as being present in a large proportion of those who have dropped out of the labor force.
- s_q_b 10y ago
  I would wager most of those people are disabled, but for psychological reasons. As you point out, the level of stress caused by financial insecurity during any period of disability is extremely high. A lot of white collar workers in the US end up in a particular catch-22: their jobs are making them sick, but because they are sick, they can't leave their jobs. They become psychologically disabled because of the pressure to return to work before they are well, the stressor of battling the insurance companies, and the suffering from the cultural shame of not actively working. Finally, after the 12-week FMLA requirement is exceeded, absent any policy, state law, contract, a company can fire an employee for absence after returning from, or even during, disability leave. In conclusion, there is no doubt that there are some true "fakes" scamming the system. Afterall, the largest cause of disability is Generalized Anxiety Disorder, followed by several other "invisible" disabilities that cannot be objectively verified. That makes me very upset, given that I sufferered a massively disruptive neuropathic pain disorder that only recently subsided enough to start coding again. During those few months, I had to hear constant negative feedback from friends and relatives, usually telling me the equivalent of "Tough it out like a man." This false perception was further compounded by the fact that I didn't look disabled. Every photo on Facebook caused a barrage of "I thought you were sick" comments, not realizing that my medical orders were to learn to resocialize despite the pain. Then that snapshot becomes people's vision of your illness, not realizing that the quiet dinner with your friends was the one hour you spent out of bed that day. These skeptical responses are certainly due to the widespread deception by some, as you describe. I am just grateful that I had a "hard" medical diagnosis upon which to rely. But some people really do need the disability insurance, which they have paid to obtain, in order to survive, not lose their homes, and pay for medical care during periods of tremendous suffering. Everyone, please remember that not all illnesses present to the naked eye, or even to physical examination. We do not fully understand how either the human body, or more importantly, the human brain functions. Without that knowledge, it is almost impossible to tell the genuine afflictions from the false claims.
  - VLM 10y ago
    "In conclusion, there is no doubt that there are some true "fakes" scamming the system." The system scammed them. "Do what your teachers say and collect pieces of paper from academics and 100% of you will get a guaranteed lifelong meal ticket with great bennies" So now they have to suicide, taking their families with them, because no job means no food no shelter no medical care ... or they can scam the system right back, just like the system scammed them. "For my whole life, did everything I was told no matter how hard or stupid it sounded, to get that lifelong real job meal ticket, they took it away from everyone in my community to save money, guess I'll just collect a lifelong disability meal ticket instead, its a lot of work and BS but the process selected for people good at putting up with BS so I'll surely get mine" In modern America disability is our only long term unemployment system. You get pain pills for phantom pain then sell them for extra cash. The system screws you, you screw it right back. Isn't their fault they were born into a system that tossed them away like human trash. The system is faulty, not them.
- mxfh 10y ago
  There is some global data available on the so called NEET phenomenon. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.UEM.NEET.ZS http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.UEM.NEET.ZS http://oecdinsights.org/2016/10/13/neets-policies-to-support-young-people/ http://oecdinsights.org/2016/10/13/neets-policies-to-support...
slfnflctd 10y ago
> 31 percent of those receiving benefits have mental disorders This has got to be a major contributing factor. Add in those with undiagnosed psych problems, and I'm sure it would stand out even more. [Of course, maybe they would be balanced out by the 'fakers'-- but that is almost equally alarming, and itself suggests all kinds of deeper problems.] Both reducing the stigma of and increasing access to mental health care are hugely important right now. Most people with such issues are perfectly capable of being productive employees-- but not if they are marginalized through terrible hiring processes, workplace 'social politics' and inflexible, unsympathetic (or simply incompetent) management. A robust jobs program could certainly help.
- contingencies 10y ago
  If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Not really, a diagnosis of a mental disorder isn't an attempt to slur a person, it's recognition that they have behavior patterns that inhibit their ability to engage with society. That's something that can be assessed pretty objectively.
    - contingencies 10y ago
      I did not say that, and I agree with you. However, I disagree that any majority has the right to force others to 'engage with society' on their own terms or be excluded, which is often basically what allegations of 'mental illness' are.
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        The exclusion can happen without any use of force, and a lot of outreach programs focus on reducing the exclusion, not on forcing normative behaviors.
a_c 10y ago
> ... were not in the labor force, which means that they were not employed and were not seeking a job. Does entrepreneurs constitute labor force? If so, then "labor force" and "not employed and not seeking a job" are not exactly the same
- bnastic 10y ago
  The number of entepreneurs is insignificantly small to matter in this study.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  I'm not aware of any unemployment figure that includes small business owners or those who are self-employed. The real question is, are people who retired early (see /r/financialindependence) counted in this figure? What about trust fund kids? I'd argue that if you have enough money to not need to work, and you aren't, and you don't want to, then you should slot into some category very different than the people who can't work and aren't self-sufficient financially.
- bandrami 10y ago
  Yes, at least by BLS's instrument, entrepreneurs are both in the labor force and employed. Census runs a separate survey with separate definitions, and so does Treasury -- yes, it's infuriating -- and I don't know how entrepreneurs and SBOs fit in to those, but for BLS they count as employed if they're actually doing work for the company they founded (even if they're not yet taking a paycheck).
sc4th1s 10y ago
Video games could be playing a part: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-amazing-video-games-could-be-causing-a-big-problem-for-america/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-a...
- rjbwork 10y ago
  Seems like a symptom, not a cause. Escapism for the psychologically inflicted and chronically unemployed.
  - brockers 10y ago
    I don't know. Escapism before the advent of technology generally meant writing letters, reading books, walking, drinking, and visiting friends. All these activities seem to promote mental health and productive behavior compared to digital media. Digital media generally discourages socializing (or at least not real human interaction), discourages sleep, promotes a lack of physical exercise, et al. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not trying to argue; just talking out loud about my perceptions as a Software Engineering, Civ5, and CSGo player.
jokoon 10y ago
I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (Of course there are people in worse situations than mine). Every month I check a box online to certify I am actively looking for a job, but honestly I am not. How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense. The worst thing is how society treats you and blames you for "laziness", yet those people are increasing but it seems nobody wants to hear it. In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary. What kills me even more is the whole "get motivated" movement. I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not.
- csomar 10y ago
  You mention disability. May I understand what is exactly preventing you from doing productive hours?
- NhanH 10y ago
  Please don't read into this post and the questions any more deeply than the surface, I do not have any intended judgement nor intend to imply anything. I'm trying to understand your post: I got your situation, but I'm missing the bigger points you are making. > How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense. What do you mean with "people like you"? What is your problem? I'm taking the first paragraph to mean depress or some related disorder, but then you have > In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary. Do you mean this would be a more systematic issue due to changes in labor requirements? Or that we currently have a shitty situation in job finding?
sailfast 10y ago
Not pointed out in the article, but perhaps in the study(?) - the United States has been engaged in an active war for the past 15 years that likely contributes to an increased number of those taking painkillers for injuries or having some sort of psychological disorder. In my mind I liken it to shellshock and after-effects felt in societies post WWI / WWII. I don't have specifics on the number of wounded / in treatment but it is likely not an insignificant contributor to such an increase.
- bandrami 10y ago
  There are two crucial differences between the wars of the past decade and a half and WWII/Vietnam, though: 1. The number of veterans is very small 2. Veterans are overwhelmingly from the richer half of the population About 0.5% of the cohort currently between the ages of 20 and 40 had any military service (compare to 12% of the WWII cohort and 6% of the Vietnam cohort), and only about half of that population saw service in Iraq or Afghanistan (e.g. I was active duty for almost all of the Iraq war and never went to theater, nor did almost anybody in my battalion). Furthermore (and this has been troubling the Pentagon for a while), the enlistment/commissioning standards the military has make it very difficult for poor Americans to serve. The poorest 20% of Americans are the least likely to serve, followed by the next-poorest. In fact it's nearly a perfect correlation except that the richest 20% are slightly less likely to serve than the second quintile. This yields a recruit and officer candidate pool that is both richer and whiter than the nation as a whole. (On the other hand, richer whiter servicemembers have abysmal retention rates, so that the standing force is browner and poorer than the nation as a whole because most of the middle class white people leave after one tour).
  - sailfast 10y ago
    These arguments make sense, but the duration of the wars was completely different, as were the number of people returned injured (read: mortality stats have greatly improved). Scale is different, but so are the wars. Probably end up with something in the middle? The latest I've got is that in 2013 over 2.6 Million Americans had been deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq. (That number is obviously higher now).[1] The impact percentage-wise to those returning veterans with either TBI, PTSD, etc is relatively high: http://www.research.va.gov/topics/oef-oif.cfm http://www.research.va.gov/topics/oef-oif.cfm No data in those articles about labor force contributions and any impacts there - that would be an interesting area to get more data to see how much the wars have contributed to the laborforce issues identified in the article. [1]: http://www.ibtimes.com/va-stops-releasing-data-injured-vets-total-reaches-grim-milestone-exclusive-1449584 http://www.ibtimes.com/va-stops-releasing-data-injured-vets-...
makomk 10y ago
It probably doesn't help that some companies, such as Amazon, like to treat their unskilled labourers as basically disposable. It's a lot more profitable to set performance requirements that are impossible to meet without seriously injuring yourself, then replace all the temp workers regularly with fresh meat, than to have decent working conditions.
- trentnix 10y ago
  The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test. I own a business (retail) that employs 10 and retail is, to a certain degree, "unskilled". My experience has been that it is very, very difficult to find dependable, trustworthy employees who work diligently and productively. Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system that treats employees as disposable. It's not profitable at all to do what you indicated is being done, as the cost of finding, hiring, and training new employees is considerable. That's why, so often, you see businesses doing the opposite of what you describe by holding on to poor performers far longer than they should - dealing with worker incompetence is sometimes preferable to starting over hoping for a different outcome.
  - DashRattlesnake 10y ago
    > The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test. It's pretty well documented. Here are a couple of articles that outline the conditions at Amazon, but I'm sure there are more. http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/life-and-death-amazon-temp/ http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/life-and-deat... http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f... You might want to also read up on how temp labor is treated, to see how other workers are treated disposably. > Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system that treats employees as disposable. Yet somehow, in many cases, they do so anyway. You might be an enlightened business owner that properly sees that as foolish, but that doesn't have any bearing on the behavior of other American businesses, especially ones where (unlike yours) the owner can't know all the employees.
muse900 10y ago
What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well... There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system. People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds like some sort of sorcery to me... Unfortunately prices went up, on houses etc and nowadays you got Tech involved in anything you do. You have to have a smartphone, and your wife wants the smartphone with the bitten apple no matter if it will cost half a months salary. Your kids want an Ipad or some sort of tablet. Your household needs a TV with netflix, amazon and whatever so you don't get bored. Add all those small things around and the era where everyone is obsessed with "BRANDS", yes let me buy a GANT sweater cause it going to make me so cool, while I could have bought a sweater much much cheaper of the same quality. Unfortunately that makes you think that ok... live today and let tomorrow be. Also another thing that I see around a lot is the use of Drugs and Weed especially. Several people I know or most I'd say they make daily use of Weed. Thats definitely affecting their mind and tbh they've reached the level of obsession with it where they really don't need anything else to live off. There is literally no goal set for me. Will I get a pension when I get older? WHO KNOWS? Will I ever get off working even when I reach a very old age? Who knows, most likely i'll be working for the rest of my life... Will I be able to afford a house and a normal way of life? Probably in the next 20 years, thats too late but its the truth I'll be around 50's when I'll be owning a house. Not an expensive house, a house that prolly when I sell it won't even cover me for 5 years of living without a job. Thats the sad situation that I and all youngsters are in, let alone people in the US or even Europe with Student loans, I don't even wanna think of them and what kind of future can they have. P.S I am referring to an example of what the average person around me thinks of. Don't call me self-entitled that's harsh and you don't know me.
- andrepd 10y ago
  >Unfortunately prices went up, on houses etc and nowadays you got Tech involved in anything you do. You have to have a smartphone, and your wife wants the smartphone with the bitten apple no matter if it will cost half a months salary. Your kids want an Ipad or some sort of tablet. Your household needs a TV with netflix, amazon and whatever so you don't get bored. Add all those small things around and the era where everyone is obsessed with "BRANDS", yes let me buy a GANT sweater cause it going to make me so cool, while I could have bought a sweater much much cheaper of the same quality. I don't understand, what do you mean by this? Does anyone force you to buy a bitten off apple brand phone? You can get excellent smartphones that last for 3 years for less than 200$. Does anyone force you to buy a gant sweater? Quality clothes are dirt cheap nowadays. Your kids "want" an ipad? Buy them a cheaper tablet, or better yet, don't buy them a tablet at all. But a raspberry pi and a couple of snes controllers and download some old games. Problem solved. You complain that nowadays people are obsessed with brands, and that is definitely so, a legitimate observation, but if you are aware of that, what's forcing you yourself to buy into it?
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
After watching the documentary "13th" on Netflix recently, I wondered about how the US prison population affected this. Something like 1 out of 100 people in the US are in prison, which must be close to 2 out of 100 men. And another chunk of people who's function in society is to monitor those in jail. Plus the difficulties of getting a job as a felon. Seemed like all put together must have a serious impact on productivity.
- mikebelanger 10y ago
  That's a good question, one that the article didn't mention. Plus, a lot of stuff is now made through prison labour -- which is substantially lower-paid than the normal minimum wage. This could translate to less opportunities for anyone outside of the prison.
- kbenson 10y ago
  > Something like 1 out of 100 people in the US are in prison, which must be close to 2 out of 100 men. Wait, doesn't that mean that mean that twice as many men are in prison as people are in prison?
  - brohee 10y ago
    No, it means that men are incarcerated at a higher rate than women.
  - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
    I'm not sure if you're just confused because I switched from people to men, but it prompted me to look up the actual figures which are: 1352 per 100,000 men 126 per 100,000 women http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html
    - kbenson 10y ago
      Ah, I see what you are saying, I wasn't thinking about the groups from which you were drawing (mornings before coffee obviously don't show me at my best). My first thought after understanding what you were trying to say is actually backed up by the stats you found, as while men make up slightly less than half the populace, they have a much higher incarceration rate.
hedgew 10y ago
In programming and academia you only see the most gifted of society, and even many of those seem to struggle. I can barely imagine what it would be like to be in the less gifted half of the population. I wonder if such men have any chance to build a life respected, or even just work enough to found a family. They seem to have fewer options each year, to find satisfying roles in life. They seem to receive even less understanding or sympathy.
- qntty 10y ago
  This is why Trump is popular. He's the opiate of people who are left behind. People mock them for supporting Trump, but few people offer appealing alternatives.
  - kirRoyale 10y ago
    Trump is popular because Clinton is un-electable. As someone who works in IT, I know the kinds of hoops people jump through to make sure everything is secure. And for her just to shit on those rules so willingly is un-redeemable IMO.
matthewmorgan 10y ago
Recommended reading: In Praise of Idleness By Bertrand Russell http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html
naveen99 10y ago
Statistics foR women for reference : https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Laborforce_par_rate_edu_att_sex_2015_txt.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Laborforce_par_rate_edu_att_sex... Women labor force participation rate in india 24% http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/opinion/why-arent-indias-women-working.html http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/opinion/why-arent-india...
Alex3917 10y ago
Seems dubious. 50% of American adults have had chronic pain for the last 20 years, but unemployment among men has gone up dramatically in that time. That said, we should ban companies like Red Bull from sponsoring extreme sports. Every time you see one of those People Are Awesome videos in your Facebook feed there is an entire cohort of permanently disabled kids that went into the making. There is a great documentary called Crash Reel about this.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  Chronic pain, yes, but painkiller use has been rising within constant rates of pain.
reader5000 10y ago
Any research on association of joblessness with internet addiction? I know China has entire state-sponsored treatment programs for internet/video game addiction; they think it is a real problem. I think if a person is consuming 8-9 hours of electronic media per day (which is around average), particularly internet or video games, then their motivation/capacity to interface with the real world is severely damaged. In many ways reality is not as rewarding/stimulating as the internet, but is also more difficult and risky. Just take the case of mating: I can enjoy simulated physical intimacy with literally thousands of physically attractive women with 0 risk of rejection and 0 effort, or I can take on the risk of painful rejection and enormous effort of achieving "social status" and being "charismatic" in order to attract an "actual" woman with whom I get to have "actual" sex, which at the end of the day is just not as good as fake sex with 100s of different electronic women. And really, if I have no need to find a real woman, what need do I have to find a job? Electronic stimulation is severely fucking up the reward/motivation functioning of the human brain, at least for some people, in the same way alcohol is a huge problem for some people. I think the other factor is simply technological productivity. A handful of software engineers can run e.g. Facebook, a social networking site for billions of people. A handful of farmers can produce food for billions of people. Every job opening receives 100s to 1000s of resumes because the world's productivity to consumption of human labor ratio increases every day. If you're not like a top .01% skill level person, you're really not needed. Your brain has been obsoleted.
- pcurve 10y ago
  The problem is, this has been a long term trend that pre-dates proliferation of internet by decades.
  - reader5000 10y ago
    How you mean? Young people dropping out of society I thought was a relatively recent thing. In Japan "hikikomori" started getting noted early 2000s.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
ttyltrful 10y ago
Perpetual low interest rates are crushing the middle class and men are opting out. Check out Japan for a glimpse at that future. Mathmatically it cannot last forever, so it will correct itself. The question is if there is a slow controlled deflation or a rapid deflation (crash or war). Unfortunately given our politics and banking system a rapid deflation seems unavoidable.
jliptzin 10y ago
I don't dispute the numbers in the article and can't speak to the tragedy of opioid addiction, but whenever I see something like this I am reminded of a friend of mine who never had a job, and never looked, from ages 18-30. He came from an upper-middle class family and his parents basically supported him all those years and he was fine with that. He knows he's lazy and embraced that as long as he could. To outsiders who'd ask why he doesn't have a job, he'd blame it on things like a crummy job market, chronic joint pain, or that he had hearing issues that prevented him from working effectively. He never went on disability though. Finally when his parents' fortune ran low, he had to suck it up and start working and he's doing fine now. So, I always wonder when reading this stuff, what portion of the sample just has "affluenza" and is blaming it on something else to hide the truth (which, by the way, I don't have a problem with - if someone wants to embrace being lazy and has the means to do it, then go ahead).
- carlmcqueen 10y ago
  I don't doubt you know someone who has affluenza, I'd just advise you to be careful about writing off studies where they go past 'I know a guy who' into sampling and research because you know someone who is lazy. There is massive mental illness stigma in our society at large, there are many hard working people who remain employed who are suffering long before they go unemployed and that suffering is never voiced and is discredited when they drop out of the unemployed market to become 'no longer looking'.
- ythl 10y ago
  > So, I always wonder when reading this stuff, what portion of the sample just has "affluenza" People don't like being held accountable for their own situation. The blame will always be shifted to society where possible. You see it everywhere. One's circumstances in a given study are rarely, if ever, blamed on the individual. People are generally assumed to be doing everything right but are simply victims of "the system"
vrtx0 10y ago
I'm one of these missing men. I'm currently 35, and have been working as a software engineer since I was 19. Two years ago, I started experiencing excruciating, unrelenting low back pain that eventually required me to leave my job and go on long term disability. I loved my job. I worked at MongoDB in Palo Alto for 3 years, contributing to the core database (C++) and designed a performance testing platform (among other things). It was a true pleasure to have worked with some extraordinarily brilliant people throughout my career. I biked ~5 miles to work from the house I shared with my partner in Atherton. Life was perfect. I now live with my parents in Florida, and have symptoms that have progressed to what could be MS (I'm undergoing a complete work up at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, FL). Life sucks. I'm depressed, but who wouldn't be? I also take prescription pain medicine, which helps me get out of bed and shed some of the 105lbs I've gained since this started. Being 6'2" and 285lbs is depressing in it's own right. That said, I want to stress two things: 1. Opioids are daemonized by the media, but there is no better option (aside from suicide). The implied correlation with pain medication in this article seems to reinforce the stigma I've been facing; that somehow I'm lazy, weak or an addict. But all I can offer is my word. Like most people who enjoy software engineering, I gained immense gratification from solving difficult problems, learning new things, and completing a piece of software I'm proud of. Opioids don't replace that feeling (for me anyway). Nothing does. But the lesions on my brain make writing software effectively impossible. 2. Debilitating conditions predicate losing a job and starting pain medication. Maybe some people are just lazy and hate their jobs, but please don't punish me (and others like me) for it. Even if they're in the majority, please don't punish me. I suffer enough.
- e40 10y ago
  There is research suggesting medical marijuana is a good replacement for opioids, in some cases. Too bad FL isn't a state that gives you that option, so you could at least try it. In CO, the deaths by opioids have gone down significantly.
  - vrtx0 10y ago
    I could not agree more. I had a medical marijuana note in CA, and it turned my stabbing pain into more of a pins-and-needles feeling (sorry, pain is difficult to describe in words). It also drastically reduced the tremor in my right hand. But since moving to Florida, I have to take a drug test every month before my pain management doctor will prescribe anything. It's on the ballot in Florida next month.
return0 10y ago
Some more thoughts on that worrying trend by larry summers (unfortunately behind firewall but readable here: https://www.google.com/?q=Men+not+at+work:+Lawrence+Summers+on+America%E2%80%99s+hidden+unemployment https://www.google.com/?q=Men+not+at+work:+Lawrence+Summers+...)
k__ 10y ago
After reading that even developers got out of business by disability, I'm happy that I got an insurance for this last year.
nolepointer 10y ago
And just to be clear, this is the same editorial board that supports Hillary Clinton, who will increase outsourcing?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
elementalest 10y ago
I think part of the problem is that jobs are becoming more and more high skill based, requiring many years of university level education. The low skilled jobs are replaced with high skilled ones. The problem is our education systems are falling behind. Education needs to be readily accessible and inexpensive for both initial schooling and those who need/want to re-skill. The universities should also have employment programs which help workers new to their field find and obtain jobs so they can gain experience. With the economy the way it is (slower growth, wage stagnation etc), employers are unwilling to take the potential risk with low skilled workers (who have no degree) and there are plenty of new workers who just finished their degree which employers will prefer to employ. I suspect there would be enough jobs, if there were enough high skilled workers and a better economy. I think the problem is there is a shortage of high skilled experienced workers and an oversupply of lower skilled workers. As some anecdotal evidence, when I search for software engineering / developer jobs in my country, I see a lot of high skilled jobs available, requiring moderate to significant levels of experience and/or education. However, there are much fewer junior/graduate/basic developer jobs available. To become a high skilled worker, you generally have to start in the low skilled jobs, or get a PhD. If its hard to get a lower skilled/entry level job due to low demand, the rate higher skilled worker are produced is restricted. So its a catch 22.
neves 10y ago
And if doesn't talk about the incarcerated population. In USA they are a big chunk of the young male population (a lot of them black).

163 points by stefap2 10y ago

Comparing those numbers with Europe, whose safety net doesn't usually require people to pretend being disabled, would have been enlightening. A missed opportunity.

saiya-jin 10y ago
you are describing small part of europe, that's getting even smaller. just give immigration a bit of time
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > you are describing small part of europe, that's getting even smaller. How small? > just give immigration a bit of time Do you have a time frame? How will it effect?
  - throwaway1892 10y ago
    > How will it effect? My guess is that the increase number of immigrants in Western Europe will cause a reduction in social benefits
    - denzil_correa 10y ago
      How? Without immigrants, the social benefit system would reduce anyways because there aren't enough young people to pay into the system. In addition, both low and high skilled migrants increase productivity and per capita GDP in advanced economies (Source : IMF) [0]. [0] http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2016/02/pdf/c4.pdf http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2016/02/pdf/c4.pdf
      - throwaway1892 10y ago
        From the linked paper: "The stock of refugees has a stronger presence of children; in 2015, for instance, more than half of refugees were under the age of 18." So a part of the migrants would not influence positively the GDP for a few years and put more pressure on public welfare system, as well as public schools and hospitals. Also I think that, whether low or high skilled, when you have high unemployment rate (above 10%), more workers just mean more people unemployed, so more social benefits, that the various welfare states won't be able to assume, since they all are in deficit. Also can you point in the document where this affirmation is made?
        denzil_correa 10y ago
        Right there in the abstract > a common theme is that, despite the negative short-term impact on recipient economies, they offer potential gains in the long term. In addition, Figure 4.21 (and surrounding text) explicitly mentions the positive longer term growth effects due to migrants. > So a part of the migrants would not influence positively the GDP for a few years and put more pressure on public welfare system, as well as public schools and hospitals. That is assuming the current system is not good enough. > whether low or high skilled, when you have high unemployment rate (above 10%), Generally, migrants move to countries with opportunities.
        throwaway1892 10y ago
        Ok, thank you for the information. > That is assuming the current system is not good enough. Where I am, the current system seems sorely lacking, for example regarding the number of homeless, social mobility, existing public infrastructure, education, healthcare... > Generally, migrants move to countries with opportunities. Apparently 10% of unemployment is enough of an opportunity for migrant going to Western Europe (Spain: 22.7%, France: 10.5%, Italy: 12.4%, Greece: 25.6, Portugal: 13%...). But I think the migrants going in those countries are mostly refugees, which might not stay long term, so not providing the economic benefits you talked about. Edit: So, it is possible that the afflux of refugees in Western Europe will cause a diminution of social benefits since it would strain even more a failing system and not provide any long term economic benefit since they would have gone back home, once the crisis finished (and I hope it will end before long). Edit II: assuming, of course, that the majority of migrants arriving in Europe are refugees, which seems to be supported by the figures provided by the documents ("The European Union also received an unparalleled number of refugees recently—about 1.25 million first-time asylum " p. 14).
  - throwaway1892 10y ago
    Another hypothesis (on how the migrants might cause the disappearance of welfare state in Western Europe): The society that created the welfare state is particular enough that the change contributed by the influx of immigrants might change the society to a point where the welfare state disappear. It's more of a social change than an economical one. In that case, it's on a long time frame (decades at least), where my other hypothesis is more political and economic and is shorter, around a decade.
pjc50 10y ago
Depending on whether or not you count the UK as "Europe", I believe the same thing has happened here for much the same reasons. http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/default/files/jrf/migrated/files/spr5108.pdf http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/default/files/jrf/migrated/files... "What seems to have happened is that the employment threshold has gradually moved down the severity scale, so that men and women with middle-severity impairments who would have been employed in the 1970s are now out of work and receiving incapacity benefits"
- istjohn 10y ago
  This is unfortunate not only for reasons of productivity losses, but also because the sense of belonging and agency that goes with employment can be a great boon to one's mental health and mental disorders are cited as being present in a large proportion of those who have dropped out of the labor force.
s_q_b 10y ago
I would wager most of those people are disabled, but for psychological reasons. As you point out, the level of stress caused by financial insecurity during any period of disability is extremely high. A lot of white collar workers in the US end up in a particular catch-22: their jobs are making them sick, but because they are sick, they can't leave their jobs. They become psychologically disabled because of the pressure to return to work before they are well, the stressor of battling the insurance companies, and the suffering from the cultural shame of not actively working. Finally, after the 12-week FMLA requirement is exceeded, absent any policy, state law, contract, a company can fire an employee for absence after returning from, or even during, disability leave. In conclusion, there is no doubt that there are some true "fakes" scamming the system. Afterall, the largest cause of disability is Generalized Anxiety Disorder, followed by several other "invisible" disabilities that cannot be objectively verified. That makes me very upset, given that I sufferered a massively disruptive neuropathic pain disorder that only recently subsided enough to start coding again. During those few months, I had to hear constant negative feedback from friends and relatives, usually telling me the equivalent of "Tough it out like a man." This false perception was further compounded by the fact that I didn't look disabled. Every photo on Facebook caused a barrage of "I thought you were sick" comments, not realizing that my medical orders were to learn to resocialize despite the pain. Then that snapshot becomes people's vision of your illness, not realizing that the quiet dinner with your friends was the one hour you spent out of bed that day. These skeptical responses are certainly due to the widespread deception by some, as you describe. I am just grateful that I had a "hard" medical diagnosis upon which to rely. But some people really do need the disability insurance, which they have paid to obtain, in order to survive, not lose their homes, and pay for medical care during periods of tremendous suffering. Everyone, please remember that not all illnesses present to the naked eye, or even to physical examination. We do not fully understand how either the human body, or more importantly, the human brain functions. Without that knowledge, it is almost impossible to tell the genuine afflictions from the false claims.
- VLM 10y ago
  "In conclusion, there is no doubt that there are some true "fakes" scamming the system." The system scammed them. "Do what your teachers say and collect pieces of paper from academics and 100% of you will get a guaranteed lifelong meal ticket with great bennies" So now they have to suicide, taking their families with them, because no job means no food no shelter no medical care ... or they can scam the system right back, just like the system scammed them. "For my whole life, did everything I was told no matter how hard or stupid it sounded, to get that lifelong real job meal ticket, they took it away from everyone in my community to save money, guess I'll just collect a lifelong disability meal ticket instead, its a lot of work and BS but the process selected for people good at putting up with BS so I'll surely get mine" In modern America disability is our only long term unemployment system. You get pain pills for phantom pain then sell them for extra cash. The system screws you, you screw it right back. Isn't their fault they were born into a system that tossed them away like human trash. The system is faulty, not them.
mxfh 10y ago
There is some global data available on the so called NEET phenomenon. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.UEM.NEET.ZS http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.UEM.NEET.ZS http://oecdinsights.org/2016/10/13/neets-policies-to-support-young-people/ http://oecdinsights.org/2016/10/13/neets-policies-to-support...

slfnflctd 10y ago

> 31 percent of those receiving benefits have mental disorders This has got to be a major contributing factor. Add in those with undiagnosed psych problems, and I'm sure it would stand out even more. [Of course, maybe they would be balanced out by the 'fakers'-- but that is almost equally alarming, and itself suggests all kinds of deeper problems.] Both reducing the stigma of and increasing access to mental health care are hugely important right now. Most people with such issues are perfectly capable of being productive employees-- but not if they are marginalized through terrible hiring processes, workplace 'social politics' and inflexible, unsympathetic (or simply incompetent) management. A robust jobs program could certainly help.

contingencies 10y ago
If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Not really, a diagnosis of a mental disorder isn't an attempt to slur a person, it's recognition that they have behavior patterns that inhibit their ability to engage with society. That's something that can be assessed pretty objectively.
  - contingencies 10y ago
    I did not say that, and I agree with you. However, I disagree that any majority has the right to force others to 'engage with society' on their own terms or be excluded, which is often basically what allegations of 'mental illness' are.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      The exclusion can happen without any use of force, and a lot of outreach programs focus on reducing the exclusion, not on forcing normative behaviors.

a_c 10y ago

> ... were not in the labor force, which means that they were not employed and were not seeking a job. Does entrepreneurs constitute labor force? If so, then "labor force" and "not employed and not seeking a job" are not exactly the same

bnastic 10y ago
The number of entepreneurs is insignificantly small to matter in this study.
CydeWeys 10y ago
I'm not aware of any unemployment figure that includes small business owners or those who are self-employed. The real question is, are people who retired early (see /r/financialindependence) counted in this figure? What about trust fund kids? I'd argue that if you have enough money to not need to work, and you aren't, and you don't want to, then you should slot into some category very different than the people who can't work and aren't self-sufficient financially.
bandrami 10y ago
Yes, at least by BLS's instrument, entrepreneurs are both in the labor force and employed. Census runs a separate survey with separate definitions, and so does Treasury -- yes, it's infuriating -- and I don't know how entrepreneurs and SBOs fit in to those, but for BLS they count as employed if they're actually doing work for the company they founded (even if they're not yet taking a paycheck).

sc4th1s 10y ago

Video games could be playing a part: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-amazing-video-games-could-be-causing-a-big-problem-for-america/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-a...

rjbwork 10y ago
Seems like a symptom, not a cause. Escapism for the psychologically inflicted and chronically unemployed.
- brockers 10y ago
  I don't know. Escapism before the advent of technology generally meant writing letters, reading books, walking, drinking, and visiting friends. All these activities seem to promote mental health and productive behavior compared to digital media. Digital media generally discourages socializing (or at least not real human interaction), discourages sleep, promotes a lack of physical exercise, et al. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not trying to argue; just talking out loud about my perceptions as a Software Engineering, Civ5, and CSGo player.

jokoon 10y ago

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (Of course there are people in worse situations than mine). Every month I check a box online to certify I am actively looking for a job, but honestly I am not. How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense. The worst thing is how society treats you and blames you for "laziness", yet those people are increasing but it seems nobody wants to hear it. In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary. What kills me even more is the whole "get motivated" movement. I know I'm ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It should not.

csomar 10y ago
You mention disability. May I understand what is exactly preventing you from doing productive hours?
NhanH 10y ago
Please don't read into this post and the questions any more deeply than the surface, I do not have any intended judgement nor intend to imply anything. I'm trying to understand your post: I got your situation, but I'm missing the bigger points you are making. > How on earth do you want people like me begging for a job? It makes no sense. What do you mean with "people like you"? What is your problem? I'm taking the first paragraph to mean depress or some related disorder, but then you have > In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly, so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and less necessary. Do you mean this would be a more systematic issue due to changes in labor requirements? Or that we currently have a shitty situation in job finding?

sailfast 10y ago

Not pointed out in the article, but perhaps in the study(?) - the United States has been engaged in an active war for the past 15 years that likely contributes to an increased number of those taking painkillers for injuries or having some sort of psychological disorder. In my mind I liken it to shellshock and after-effects felt in societies post WWI / WWII. I don't have specifics on the number of wounded / in treatment but it is likely not an insignificant contributor to such an increase.

bandrami 10y ago
There are two crucial differences between the wars of the past decade and a half and WWII/Vietnam, though: 1. The number of veterans is very small 2. Veterans are overwhelmingly from the richer half of the population About 0.5% of the cohort currently between the ages of 20 and 40 had any military service (compare to 12% of the WWII cohort and 6% of the Vietnam cohort), and only about half of that population saw service in Iraq or Afghanistan (e.g. I was active duty for almost all of the Iraq war and never went to theater, nor did almost anybody in my battalion). Furthermore (and this has been troubling the Pentagon for a while), the enlistment/commissioning standards the military has make it very difficult for poor Americans to serve. The poorest 20% of Americans are the least likely to serve, followed by the next-poorest. In fact it's nearly a perfect correlation except that the richest 20% are slightly less likely to serve than the second quintile. This yields a recruit and officer candidate pool that is both richer and whiter than the nation as a whole. (On the other hand, richer whiter servicemembers have abysmal retention rates, so that the standing force is browner and poorer than the nation as a whole because most of the middle class white people leave after one tour).
- sailfast 10y ago
  These arguments make sense, but the duration of the wars was completely different, as were the number of people returned injured (read: mortality stats have greatly improved). Scale is different, but so are the wars. Probably end up with something in the middle? The latest I've got is that in 2013 over 2.6 Million Americans had been deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq. (That number is obviously higher now).[1] The impact percentage-wise to those returning veterans with either TBI, PTSD, etc is relatively high: http://www.research.va.gov/topics/oef-oif.cfm http://www.research.va.gov/topics/oef-oif.cfm No data in those articles about labor force contributions and any impacts there - that would be an interesting area to get more data to see how much the wars have contributed to the laborforce issues identified in the article. [1]: http://www.ibtimes.com/va-stops-releasing-data-injured-vets-total-reaches-grim-milestone-exclusive-1449584 http://www.ibtimes.com/va-stops-releasing-data-injured-vets-...

makomk 10y ago

It probably doesn't help that some companies, such as Amazon, like to treat their unskilled labourers as basically disposable. It's a lot more profitable to set performance requirements that are impossible to meet without seriously injuring yourself, then replace all the temp workers regularly with fresh meat, than to have decent working conditions.

trentnix 10y ago
The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test. I own a business (retail) that employs 10 and retail is, to a certain degree, "unskilled". My experience has been that it is very, very difficult to find dependable, trustworthy employees who work diligently and productively. Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system that treats employees as disposable. It's not profitable at all to do what you indicated is being done, as the cost of finding, hiring, and training new employees is considerable. That's why, so often, you see businesses doing the opposite of what you describe by holding on to poor performers far longer than they should - dealing with worker incompetence is sometimes preferable to starting over hoping for a different outcome.
- DashRattlesnake 10y ago
  > The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test. It's pretty well documented. Here are a couple of articles that outline the conditions at Amazon, but I'm sure there are more. http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/life-and-death-amazon-temp/ http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/life-and-deat... http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f... You might want to also read up on how temp labor is treated, to see how other workers are treated disposably. > Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system that treats employees as disposable. Yet somehow, in many cases, they do so anyway. You might be an enlightened business owner that properly sees that as foolish, but that doesn't have any bearing on the behavior of other American businesses, especially ones where (unlike yours) the owner can't know all the employees.

muse900 10y ago

What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well... There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system. People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds like some sort of sorcery to me... Unfortunately prices went up, on houses etc and nowadays you got Tech involved in anything you do. You have to have a smartphone, and your wife wants the smartphone with the bitten apple no matter if it will cost half a months salary. Your kids want an Ipad or some sort of tablet. Your household needs a TV with netflix, amazon and whatever so you don't get bored. Add all those small things around and the era where everyone is obsessed with "BRANDS", yes let me buy a GANT sweater cause it going to make me so cool, while I could have bought a sweater much much cheaper of the same quality. Unfortunately that makes you think that ok... live today and let tomorrow be. Also another thing that I see around a lot is the use of Drugs and Weed especially. Several people I know or most I'd say they make daily use of Weed. Thats definitely affecting their mind and tbh they've reached the level of obsession with it where they really don't need anything else to live off. There is literally no goal set for me. Will I get a pension when I get older? WHO KNOWS? Will I ever get off working even when I reach a very old age? Who knows, most likely i'll be working for the rest of my life... Will I be able to afford a house and a normal way of life? Probably in the next 20 years, thats too late but its the truth I'll be around 50's when I'll be owning a house. Not an expensive house, a house that prolly when I sell it won't even cover me for 5 years of living without a job. Thats the sad situation that I and all youngsters are in, let alone people in the US or even Europe with Student loans, I don't even wanna think of them and what kind of future can they have. P.S I am referring to an example of what the average person around me thinks of. Don't call me self-entitled that's harsh and you don't know me.

andrepd 10y ago
>Unfortunately prices went up, on houses etc and nowadays you got Tech involved in anything you do. You have to have a smartphone, and your wife wants the smartphone with the bitten apple no matter if it will cost half a months salary. Your kids want an Ipad or some sort of tablet. Your household needs a TV with netflix, amazon and whatever so you don't get bored. Add all those small things around and the era where everyone is obsessed with "BRANDS", yes let me buy a GANT sweater cause it going to make me so cool, while I could have bought a sweater much much cheaper of the same quality. I don't understand, what do you mean by this? Does anyone force you to buy a bitten off apple brand phone? You can get excellent smartphones that last for 3 years for less than 200$. Does anyone force you to buy a gant sweater? Quality clothes are dirt cheap nowadays. Your kids "want" an ipad? Buy them a cheaper tablet, or better yet, don't buy them a tablet at all. But a raspberry pi and a couple of snes controllers and download some old games. Problem solved. You complain that nowadays people are obsessed with brands, and that is definitely so, a legitimate observation, but if you are aware of that, what's forcing you yourself to buy into it?

ZeroGravitas 10y ago

After watching the documentary "13th" on Netflix recently, I wondered about how the US prison population affected this. Something like 1 out of 100 people in the US are in prison, which must be close to 2 out of 100 men. And another chunk of people who's function in society is to monitor those in jail. Plus the difficulties of getting a job as a felon. Seemed like all put together must have a serious impact on productivity.

mikebelanger 10y ago
That's a good question, one that the article didn't mention. Plus, a lot of stuff is now made through prison labour -- which is substantially lower-paid than the normal minimum wage. This could translate to less opportunities for anyone outside of the prison.
kbenson 10y ago
> Something like 1 out of 100 people in the US are in prison, which must be close to 2 out of 100 men. Wait, doesn't that mean that mean that twice as many men are in prison as people are in prison?
- brohee 10y ago
  No, it means that men are incarcerated at a higher rate than women.
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  I'm not sure if you're just confused because I switched from people to men, but it prompted me to look up the actual figures which are: 1352 per 100,000 men 126 per 100,000 women http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html
  - kbenson 10y ago
    Ah, I see what you are saying, I wasn't thinking about the groups from which you were drawing (mornings before coffee obviously don't show me at my best). My first thought after understanding what you were trying to say is actually backed up by the stats you found, as while men make up slightly less than half the populace, they have a much higher incarceration rate.

hedgew 10y ago

In programming and academia you only see the most gifted of society, and even many of those seem to struggle. I can barely imagine what it would be like to be in the less gifted half of the population. I wonder if such men have any chance to build a life respected, or even just work enough to found a family. They seem to have fewer options each year, to find satisfying roles in life. They seem to receive even less understanding or sympathy.

qntty 10y ago
This is why Trump is popular. He's the opiate of people who are left behind. People mock them for supporting Trump, but few people offer appealing alternatives.
- kirRoyale 10y ago
  Trump is popular because Clinton is un-electable. As someone who works in IT, I know the kinds of hoops people jump through to make sure everything is secure. And for her just to shit on those rules so willingly is un-redeemable IMO.

matthewmorgan 10y ago

Recommended reading: In Praise of Idleness By Bertrand Russell http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

naveen99 10y ago

Statistics foR women for reference : https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Laborforce_par_rate_edu_att_sex_2015_txt.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Laborforce_par_rate_edu_att_sex... Women labor force participation rate in india 24% http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/opinion/why-arent-indias-women-working.html http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/opinion/why-arent-india...

Alex3917 10y ago

Seems dubious. 50% of American adults have had chronic pain for the last 20 years, but unemployment among men has gone up dramatically in that time. That said, we should ban companies like Red Bull from sponsoring extreme sports. Every time you see one of those People Are Awesome videos in your Facebook feed there is an entire cohort of permanently disabled kids that went into the making. There is a great documentary called Crash Reel about this.

Bartweiss 10y ago
Chronic pain, yes, but painkiller use has been rising within constant rates of pain.

reader5000 10y ago

Any research on association of joblessness with internet addiction? I know China has entire state-sponsored treatment programs for internet/video game addiction; they think it is a real problem. I think if a person is consuming 8-9 hours of electronic media per day (which is around average), particularly internet or video games, then their motivation/capacity to interface with the real world is severely damaged. In many ways reality is not as rewarding/stimulating as the internet, but is also more difficult and risky. Just take the case of mating: I can enjoy simulated physical intimacy with literally thousands of physically attractive women with 0 risk of rejection and 0 effort, or I can take on the risk of painful rejection and enormous effort of achieving "social status" and being "charismatic" in order to attract an "actual" woman with whom I get to have "actual" sex, which at the end of the day is just not as good as fake sex with 100s of different electronic women. And really, if I have no need to find a real woman, what need do I have to find a job? Electronic stimulation is severely fucking up the reward/motivation functioning of the human brain, at least for some people, in the same way alcohol is a huge problem for some people. I think the other factor is simply technological productivity. A handful of software engineers can run e.g. Facebook, a social networking site for billions of people. A handful of farmers can produce food for billions of people. Every job opening receives 100s to 1000s of resumes because the world's productivity to consumption of human labor ratio increases every day. If you're not like a top .01% skill level person, you're really not needed. Your brain has been obsoleted.

pcurve 10y ago
The problem is, this has been a long term trend that pre-dates proliferation of internet by decades.
- reader5000 10y ago
  How you mean? Young people dropping out of society I thought was a relatively recent thing. In Japan "hikikomori" started getting noted early 2000s.
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ttyltrful 10y ago

Perpetual low interest rates are crushing the middle class and men are opting out. Check out Japan for a glimpse at that future. Mathmatically it cannot last forever, so it will correct itself. The question is if there is a slow controlled deflation or a rapid deflation (crash or war). Unfortunately given our politics and banking system a rapid deflation seems unavoidable.

jliptzin 10y ago

I don't dispute the numbers in the article and can't speak to the tragedy of opioid addiction, but whenever I see something like this I am reminded of a friend of mine who never had a job, and never looked, from ages 18-30. He came from an upper-middle class family and his parents basically supported him all those years and he was fine with that. He knows he's lazy and embraced that as long as he could. To outsiders who'd ask why he doesn't have a job, he'd blame it on things like a crummy job market, chronic joint pain, or that he had hearing issues that prevented him from working effectively. He never went on disability though. Finally when his parents' fortune ran low, he had to suck it up and start working and he's doing fine now. So, I always wonder when reading this stuff, what portion of the sample just has "affluenza" and is blaming it on something else to hide the truth (which, by the way, I don't have a problem with - if someone wants to embrace being lazy and has the means to do it, then go ahead).

carlmcqueen 10y ago
I don't doubt you know someone who has affluenza, I'd just advise you to be careful about writing off studies where they go past 'I know a guy who' into sampling and research because you know someone who is lazy. There is massive mental illness stigma in our society at large, there are many hard working people who remain employed who are suffering long before they go unemployed and that suffering is never voiced and is discredited when they drop out of the unemployed market to become 'no longer looking'.
ythl 10y ago
> So, I always wonder when reading this stuff, what portion of the sample just has "affluenza" People don't like being held accountable for their own situation. The blame will always be shifted to society where possible. You see it everywhere. One's circumstances in a given study are rarely, if ever, blamed on the individual. People are generally assumed to be doing everything right but are simply victims of "the system"

vrtx0 10y ago

I'm one of these missing men. I'm currently 35, and have been working as a software engineer since I was 19. Two years ago, I started experiencing excruciating, unrelenting low back pain that eventually required me to leave my job and go on long term disability. I loved my job. I worked at MongoDB in Palo Alto for 3 years, contributing to the core database (C++) and designed a performance testing platform (among other things). It was a true pleasure to have worked with some extraordinarily brilliant people throughout my career. I biked ~5 miles to work from the house I shared with my partner in Atherton. Life was perfect. I now live with my parents in Florida, and have symptoms that have progressed to what could be MS (I'm undergoing a complete work up at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, FL). Life sucks. I'm depressed, but who wouldn't be? I also take prescription pain medicine, which helps me get out of bed and shed some of the 105lbs I've gained since this started. Being 6'2" and 285lbs is depressing in it's own right. That said, I want to stress two things: 1. Opioids are daemonized by the media, but there is no better option (aside from suicide). The implied correlation with pain medication in this article seems to reinforce the stigma I've been facing; that somehow I'm lazy, weak or an addict. But all I can offer is my word. Like most people who enjoy software engineering, I gained immense gratification from solving difficult problems, learning new things, and completing a piece of software I'm proud of. Opioids don't replace that feeling (for me anyway). Nothing does. But the lesions on my brain make writing software effectively impossible. 2. Debilitating conditions predicate losing a job and starting pain medication. Maybe some people are just lazy and hate their jobs, but please don't punish me (and others like me) for it. Even if they're in the majority, please don't punish me. I suffer enough.

e40 10y ago
There is research suggesting medical marijuana is a good replacement for opioids, in some cases. Too bad FL isn't a state that gives you that option, so you could at least try it. In CO, the deaths by opioids have gone down significantly.
- vrtx0 10y ago
  I could not agree more. I had a medical marijuana note in CA, and it turned my stabbing pain into more of a pins-and-needles feeling (sorry, pain is difficult to describe in words). It also drastically reduced the tremor in my right hand. But since moving to Florida, I have to take a drug test every month before my pain management doctor will prescribe anything. It's on the ballot in Florida next month.

return0 10y ago

Some more thoughts on that worrying trend by larry summers (unfortunately behind firewall but readable here: https://www.google.com/?q=Men+not+at+work:+Lawrence+Summers+on+America%E2%80%99s+hidden+unemployment https://www.google.com/?q=Men+not+at+work:+Lawrence+Summers+...)

k__ 10y ago

After reading that even developers got out of business by disability, I'm happy that I got an insurance for this last year.

nolepointer 10y ago

And just to be clear, this is the same editorial board that supports Hillary Clinton, who will increase outsourcing?

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elementalest 10y ago

I think part of the problem is that jobs are becoming more and more high skill based, requiring many years of university level education. The low skilled jobs are replaced with high skilled ones. The problem is our education systems are falling behind. Education needs to be readily accessible and inexpensive for both initial schooling and those who need/want to re-skill. The universities should also have employment programs which help workers new to their field find and obtain jobs so they can gain experience. With the economy the way it is (slower growth, wage stagnation etc), employers are unwilling to take the potential risk with low skilled workers (who have no degree) and there are plenty of new workers who just finished their degree which employers will prefer to employ. I suspect there would be enough jobs, if there were enough high skilled workers and a better economy. I think the problem is there is a shortage of high skilled experienced workers and an oversupply of lower skilled workers. As some anecdotal evidence, when I search for software engineering / developer jobs in my country, I see a lot of high skilled jobs available, requiring moderate to significant levels of experience and/or education. However, there are much fewer junior/graduate/basic developer jobs available. To become a high skilled worker, you generally have to start in the low skilled jobs, or get a PhD. If its hard to get a lower skilled/entry level job due to low demand, the rate higher skilled worker are produced is restricted. So its a catch 22.

neves 10y ago

And if doesn't talk about the incarcerated population. In USA they are a big chunk of the young male population (a lot of them black).