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> The lander will attempt to touch down on Meridiani Planum, near the site where NASA’s Opportunity rover landed in 2004. It will study the local environment fo

> The lander will attempt to touch down on Meridiani Planum, near the site where NASA’s Opportunity rover landed in 2004. It will study the local environment for several days before running out of battery power. How sad.

bpodgursky 10y ago
Well, the Europeans refuse to consider using RTGs (scary radiation!), which pretty much cripples any attempts to make a non-trivial rover.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- chriskanan 10y ago
  The Spirit and Opportunity rovers are both solar powered and weigh 400 lbs, so I think they could have made it solar powered. That said, they really should allow RTGs. The reason they give is as follows: Schiaparelli is primarily designed as an entry, descent and landing technology demonstrator, and therefore does not carry solar panels or radioisotope thermal generators to supply power over an extended period. It is only intended to survive on the surface for a few days powered by batteries. http://m.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/ExoMars_frequently_asked_questions http://m.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/ExoMar...
  - Figs 10y ago
    > In addition, a simple camera (DECA) will take 15 monochrome images during the descent of Schiaparelli to provide engineering insight into the landing process and to identify help the actual landing location. However, it is not designed to take images from the surface. Well, if they're not even going to try to take pictures from the surface, I guess it doesn't make much sense to bother with solar panels or an RTG...
- djaychela 10y ago
  From what I've read, that's not true - esa doesn't have a suitable supply of plutonium 238, and is developing equipment using an alternative radioactive source (americium). https://www.quora.com/How-does-ESA-plan-to-power-its-future-space-missions-if-they-dont-want-to-use-RTGs https://www.quora.com/How-does-ESA-plan-to-power-its-future-... http://www.space.com/692-esa-chief-europe-space-nuclear-power-options.html http://www.space.com/692-esa-chief-europe-space-nuclear-powe...
  - yummybear 10y ago
    As far as I know even the US only has a very limited supply.
    - ridgeguy 10y ago
      True, and production has been restarted. [1] [1] http://www.space.com/32890-nuclear-fuel-spacecraft-production-plutonium-238.html http://www.space.com/32890-nuclear-fuel-spacecraft-productio...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    No one but the Russians really does, the US now started production of P238 again. Europe can produce P238 if it wanted too, it has one of the highest nuclear material production capabilities globally.
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    > esa doesn't have a suitable supply of plutonium 238 In fact, the link you give explicitly mentions safety and political risks in addition to availability. > not only are there sourcing issues with Pu-238 (reserves are running low and production is not high enough), there are safety concerns and political issues related with its use in RTGs. Furthermore, it's not an accident they don't have any Pu-238. The lack of it is deeply connected to the general fear of doing anything radioactive, and hence no effort to develop production capability. It's clear ESA is being forced to consider nuclear power sources simply because it's almost impossible to fulfill certain missions without them. But the fact that they are willing to consider it when absolutely necessary does not mean they haven't seriously scaled down mission potential in the past by using solar power.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  The lander is Russian, this is a joint mission in preparation for the rover mission. The Russians have never had good luck with Mars all their probes failed or crashed. This one isn't a classical probe this is effectively as identical to the rover lander just without the rover as they could get, with a few experiments stuck to it since there was room and they were going there any how. A good analogy would be if NASA would have sent a skycrane probe that would lower a curiosity rover sized weight onto the surface of mars to make sure that it works. Since the final lander itself won't have a power source or unfolding solar panels there is no point of adding them to this demonstrator since you are increasing the complexity of the system which is counter productive to the goals of the mission.
  - pinewurst 10y ago
    The lander is not Russian. It was designed by the good people at Thales Alenia Space. Russia provided launch services and a few experiments for the TGO.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      The lander is Russian AFIAK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExoMars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExoMars the rover is going to be built by ESA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExoMars_(rover) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExoMars_(rover)
      - pinewurst 10y ago
        The Schiaparelli lander landing imminently is not Russian, but the next ExoMars lander is supposed to be. See the same cited reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiaparelli_EDM_lander https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiaparelli_EDM_lander "It was built in Italy"
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  From what I heard around the Philae landing, it's not that ESA wouldn't like RTGs - it's that due to Cold War and all the politics around it, Europe never developed RTG technology, and it's still politics that block it. The issues are not about "scary radiation", but about "zomg nukes!".
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    The Ulysses probe was powered with an RTG and it was an ESA/NASA joint mission, same goes for the Cassini probe. Philae didn't use an RTG because it was a tiny 21KG spacecraft and RTGs are heavy and big. When the RTG is bigger than you spacecraft you can't really use it ;) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/New_Horizons_1.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/New_Hori... That said in general RTGs are not that common, they are really only used when solar is completely out of the question.

bpodgursky 10y ago

Well, the Europeans refuse to consider using RTGs (scary radiation!), which pretty much cripples any attempts to make a non-trivial rover.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
chriskanan 10y ago
The Spirit and Opportunity rovers are both solar powered and weigh 400 lbs, so I think they could have made it solar powered. That said, they really should allow RTGs. The reason they give is as follows: Schiaparelli is primarily designed as an entry, descent and landing technology demonstrator, and therefore does not carry solar panels or radioisotope thermal generators to supply power over an extended period. It is only intended to survive on the surface for a few days powered by batteries. http://m.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/ExoMars_frequently_asked_questions http://m.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/ExoMars/ExoMar...
- Figs 10y ago
  > In addition, a simple camera (DECA) will take 15 monochrome images during the descent of Schiaparelli to provide engineering insight into the landing process and to identify help the actual landing location. However, it is not designed to take images from the surface. Well, if they're not even going to try to take pictures from the surface, I guess it doesn't make much sense to bother with solar panels or an RTG...
djaychela 10y ago
From what I've read, that's not true - esa doesn't have a suitable supply of plutonium 238, and is developing equipment using an alternative radioactive source (americium). https://www.quora.com/How-does-ESA-plan-to-power-its-future-space-missions-if-they-dont-want-to-use-RTGs https://www.quora.com/How-does-ESA-plan-to-power-its-future-... http://www.space.com/692-esa-chief-europe-space-nuclear-power-options.html http://www.space.com/692-esa-chief-europe-space-nuclear-powe...
- yummybear 10y ago
  As far as I know even the US only has a very limited supply.
  - ridgeguy 10y ago
    True, and production has been restarted. [1] [1] http://www.space.com/32890-nuclear-fuel-spacecraft-production-plutonium-238.html http://www.space.com/32890-nuclear-fuel-spacecraft-productio...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dogma1138 10y ago
  No one but the Russians really does, the US now started production of P238 again. Europe can produce P238 if it wanted too, it has one of the highest nuclear material production capabilities globally.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  > esa doesn't have a suitable supply of plutonium 238 In fact, the link you give explicitly mentions safety and political risks in addition to availability. > not only are there sourcing issues with Pu-238 (reserves are running low and production is not high enough), there are safety concerns and political issues related with its use in RTGs. Furthermore, it's not an accident they don't have any Pu-238. The lack of it is deeply connected to the general fear of doing anything radioactive, and hence no effort to develop production capability. It's clear ESA is being forced to consider nuclear power sources simply because it's almost impossible to fulfill certain missions without them. But the fact that they are willing to consider it when absolutely necessary does not mean they haven't seriously scaled down mission potential in the past by using solar power.
dogma1138 10y ago
The lander is Russian, this is a joint mission in preparation for the rover mission. The Russians have never had good luck with Mars all their probes failed or crashed. This one isn't a classical probe this is effectively as identical to the rover lander just without the rover as they could get, with a few experiments stuck to it since there was room and they were going there any how. A good analogy would be if NASA would have sent a skycrane probe that would lower a curiosity rover sized weight onto the surface of mars to make sure that it works. Since the final lander itself won't have a power source or unfolding solar panels there is no point of adding them to this demonstrator since you are increasing the complexity of the system which is counter productive to the goals of the mission.
- pinewurst 10y ago
  The lander is not Russian. It was designed by the good people at Thales Alenia Space. Russia provided launch services and a few experiments for the TGO.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    The lander is Russian AFIAK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExoMars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExoMars the rover is going to be built by ESA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExoMars_(rover) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExoMars_(rover)
    - pinewurst 10y ago
      The Schiaparelli lander landing imminently is not Russian, but the next ExoMars lander is supposed to be. See the same cited reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiaparelli_EDM_lander https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiaparelli_EDM_lander "It was built in Italy"
TeMPOraL 10y ago
From what I heard around the Philae landing, it's not that ESA wouldn't like RTGs - it's that due to Cold War and all the politics around it, Europe never developed RTG technology, and it's still politics that block it. The issues are not about "scary radiation", but about "zomg nukes!".
- dogma1138 10y ago
  The Ulysses probe was powered with an RTG and it was an ESA/NASA joint mission, same goes for the Cassini probe. Philae didn't use an RTG because it was a tiny 21KG spacecraft and RTGs are heavy and big. When the RTG is bigger than you spacecraft you can't really use it ;) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/New_Horizons_1.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/New_Hori... That said in general RTGs are not that common, they are really only used when solar is completely out of the question.