7 ms·

I'm fluent in German, English. I'm living in Japan and am almost fluent in Japanese and quarter fluent in Korean. I also recently started Hungarian and Spanish.

by dvcrn 10y ago

I'm fluent in German, English. I'm living in Japan and am almost fluent in Japanese and quarter fluent in Korean. I also recently started Hungarian and Spanish. The most important part in my opinion is to live in a country that speaks the language you want to learn. You have to immerse yourself as much as possible with the culture and language. Also very important that you aren't afraid to try to use what you learned. Even though it's very basic, you learn a lot by actively trying to understand and use the language. It might be tiresome and frustrating at first, but you will learn crazy fast. What I mean with that is: Change your OS to that language and accept that you don't understand anything at first. Make internet friends and refuse to use English with them even though you have to translate every second sentence. Every time you see something you don't know, try to understand why it's written that way. Lastly, if you have time and money: Do a 6 months ~ 1 year intensive every-day language course in the country that speaks the language you want. By doing that every day AND surrounding yourself with the culture + language, you will be able to speak after 6 month and become very good with it after 1 year. On languages from a similar family (speak: English <-> German <-> French <-> Spanish || Japanese <-> Korean), you can get pretty far by buying books or doing internet courses. For words, I prefer the spaced repetition method of tools like Anki. Important here is that you only create flashcards for words that you personally encountered to allow your brain to make connections to where you saw that word. Don't learn from wordlists.

inimino 10y ago
Strongly agree that wordlists are useless (beyond the first few hundred that you are going to see constantly anyway) and making connections is key to retaining vocabulary. Another tip is to pull vocabulary lists from reading material, and then to review them you just re-read that text until it becomes easy.
- cgag 10y ago
  I think wordlists and learning tons of vocabulary through deliberate study are generally underrated. However, I do agree that once you've got a good foundation, pulling words from texts is a great idea. I think the ideal thing to do is to get a list of words from a text before you read it, then prime yourself on them, and then really solidify them by reading the text. I think it makes the text a lot more enjoyable. I actually just put together a prototype of a tool for doing this and wanted to polish it more before posting it, but I'd love any feedback / ideas from people who are into language learning here: https://langtools.curtis.io/ https://langtools.curtis.io/ You can test it out with a guest account: guest@example.com, password "guest". Or just sign up, I don't validate your email or anything. It's pretty rough but I think the basic idea of uploading a text, and seeing which lemmas are unknown to you so that you can pre-learn them is a good one. btw here's some german if you want something to paste into it: http://lpaste.net/267332 http://lpaste.net/267332
  - andai 10y ago
    {"Error":"sql: no rows in result set"}
  - csa 10y ago
    I can't seem to register for your site. I humbly suggest removing the requirement to sign up/in. Based on what you have said in your text, you might find this old tool to be interesting: http://www.lextutor.ca/vp/eng/ http://www.lextutor.ca/vp/eng/ The lextutor site has quite a bit of interesting information, although the interface and some of the tools are very dated.
    - cgag 10y ago
      I wanted to remove the login (or set up a dedicated demo page) when I planned on posting it in a week or so but this seemed like an opportune time to drop a link. I assumed someone just changed the guest password, but it appears the database got in some strange locked state over night. It's sqlite since I want this to be as self-hostable as possible. Not sure if I somehow created a deadlock. It should be fixed now. I'd never seen this lextutor site, I find it very interesting, it looks like its they've got very similar ideas, I found this on the research page: "One ineresting use of VP (I believe the main one for users of online VP) is to evaluate the suitability of reading texts for various levels of learners.". That's basically what I'm doing at the moment. I'd also like to add an estimate of how many of the unknown lemma's i'm showing that you'd need to learn to get your comprehensions to 98% (or something like that) so that you'd know how much pre-studying might be worthwhile before diving into the text. I haven't done much research into it but the 98% number gets through around a lot as an ideal place to be to pick up the remaining words through context. edit: ah, just a few sentences down: "As a rule of thumb, learners can not do much with a text if they know fewer than 90% of its words. From 90% to 95% the text can be used intensively (for dictionary work, contextual inference, re-reads, etc.). From 95% to about 98%, the text can be used for fluency building. Above 98% the text can be used for 'reading to learn' rather than 'learning to read.'"
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
westiseast 10y ago
Can I ask respectfully what you mean by fluent? Only because...the textbook definition and the colloquial definition differ. I think generally when people say 'fluent' they mean 'native speaker level at reading, writing and speaking language X', whereas fluent actually means you can speak without hesitation on a range of topics. Just a clarification, not an attack! Edit: Plus, I wouldn't knock wordlists. I started trying to make wordlists only out of words I had some connection to, but you end up spending an inordinate amount of time making cards, and also then it's tempting to keep interrupting your reading to make new flashcards. I am 'fluent' in mandarin, and use HSK6 wordlists as a base. I learn a bunch of random words and then suddenly, when I'm reading an article, there's the word I learned a month ago. I don't need to interrupt my reading flow, and the connection has been made. Sometimes at advanced levels, you won't see a word that often, so it's wasteful to see it once, make a flashcard, and then never have another chance to see the word in a real world context for another 6 months.
- laichzeit0 10y ago
  I also have a problem with the word "fluent". Ok you say you're fluent, here's a simple self-check: Explain to someone in the language you claim to be fluent in how you'd go about making a fire without any matches. (hint: you need to use words like tinder, kindling, flint, etc.). If you can't do this, or grapple with the fact that you don't have a repertoire of these words in your vocabulary, you might want to reconsider your definition of "fluent".
  - austinjp 10y ago
    There are different fluencies, all context dependent. A woodsman who knows all about kindling and flint would be bemused in an office environment where KPIs and stakeholder deliverables are core terms. In a programming environment they'd be utterly lost regarding the detail, even if they grasp basics like who's in charge. Or a chemistry lab, a surgical theatre, etc. This is why there are courses in "business" versions of languages, for example. So someone can be functionally fluent in the contexts they typically encounter, while being non-fluent outside them. I doubt any native speaker can be fully fluent in all possible contexts.
guitarbill 10y ago
> The most important part in my opinion is to live in a country that speaks the language you want to learn. You have to immerse yourself as much as possible with the culture and language. Also very important that you aren't afraid to try to use what you learned. I cannot agree with this more. Coincidentally, I'm also fluent in German and English, and am learning Japanese. At school, I took French, but I hated it. It only clicked when I went on an exchange, although I never kept it up. With English it was easier to pick up because of TV, films and games. But I only got good at it when I moved to the UK. The same with Japanese. Made almost no (real) progress until I went to Japan, and started using what I'd learned. Sure, learning the alphabet first helps, but language relies on being spoken IMO. If you can, take a chance and just move to a country that speaks the language you want to learn.
- timonovici 10y ago
  I had the same experience with French. I learned it for 10 years, I even won a national essay competition - guess what, when I was in France, I couldn't open my mouth. English on the other hand - I had only 2 years of study under my belt, and lots and lots of practice - movies, programming books, Shogun by James Clavell, song lyrics, chats on IRC, and so on. I'm fairly confident in my English skills. I know Russian a fair bit, and it's just a consequence of living in Moldova, where we have a lot of Russian influence and a lot of speakers of the language (16%) - but since I don't use it every day, I tend to forget it.
- balakk 10y ago
  I am learning french as well, via Duolingo. Spoken french fries my brain, I just cant keep up. So many words seem to be pronounced the same way. And they speak so fast! For example, did they say: jeune Jaune john je une Je un Joan Je ont Jean Je ne .... Perhaps it's just an unconscious bias on my part. Just for reference, I am fluent in at least two more languages apart from my mother tongue.
  - Mikeb85 10y ago
    Well half of those you can eliminate because they're grammatically incorrect or make no sense. (Je une = nonsense, unless you mean J'ai une whatever, but still, very different) The others all have different pronunciations.
happyslobro 10y ago
As a guy who grew up in French immersion schools in Canada, I consider myself to be fluent in French, although my grammar isn't quite perfect. I don't mentally translate it to English in order to understand it, at any rate. Recently, I took a short trip that included a few days in Paris, and I made a point of defaulting to French when starting conversations. However, for the most part, as soon as a French person realizes that French is not my first language, they switch the conversation to English, even if their English is worse than my French (according to my perception). I wonder if this is unique to the culture of France, or at least Paris, that they do not like to hear their language from a foreigner? Maybe the language is part of a group identity, used to identify locals who can be trusted to follow local customs? It was a little saddening. In Africa and the Middle East however, when I am in predominantly French speaking communities, the locals seem quite happy to have conversations in French, even though our accents differ greatly.
- Mikeb85 10y ago
  It's mainly so they can practice their English, or just what they're used to with most foreigners. Leave the centre of Paris and they'll speak French, leave Paris and they won't speak English at all.
- tux3 10y ago
  >I wonder if this is unique to the culture of France, or at least Paris, that they do not like to hear their language from a foreigner? Maybe the language is part of a group identity, used to identify locals who can be trusted to follow local customs? It was a little saddening. I'm sorry to hear that. As a Parisian, I don't think this had anything to do with protecting an identity, rather we're just as happy to practice our (often terrible!) English as you are to practice your French!
  - happyslobro 10y ago
    Haha, I never even considered that angle. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. Paris was amazing, and the people were merveilleux :)
  - adrianratnapala 10y ago

by dvcrn 10y ago

inimino 10y ago

Strongly agree that wordlists are useless (beyond the first few hundred that you are going to see constantly anyway) and making connections is key to retaining vocabulary. Another tip is to pull vocabulary lists from reading material, and then to review them you just re-read that text until it becomes easy.

cgag 10y ago
I think wordlists and learning tons of vocabulary through deliberate study are generally underrated. However, I do agree that once you've got a good foundation, pulling words from texts is a great idea. I think the ideal thing to do is to get a list of words from a text before you read it, then prime yourself on them, and then really solidify them by reading the text. I think it makes the text a lot more enjoyable. I actually just put together a prototype of a tool for doing this and wanted to polish it more before posting it, but I'd love any feedback / ideas from people who are into language learning here: https://langtools.curtis.io/ https://langtools.curtis.io/ You can test it out with a guest account: guest@example.com, password "guest". Or just sign up, I don't validate your email or anything. It's pretty rough but I think the basic idea of uploading a text, and seeing which lemmas are unknown to you so that you can pre-learn them is a good one. btw here's some german if you want something to paste into it: http://lpaste.net/267332 http://lpaste.net/267332
- andai 10y ago
  {"Error":"sql: no rows in result set"}
- csa 10y ago
  I can't seem to register for your site. I humbly suggest removing the requirement to sign up/in. Based on what you have said in your text, you might find this old tool to be interesting: http://www.lextutor.ca/vp/eng/ http://www.lextutor.ca/vp/eng/ The lextutor site has quite a bit of interesting information, although the interface and some of the tools are very dated.
  - cgag 10y ago
    I wanted to remove the login (or set up a dedicated demo page) when I planned on posting it in a week or so but this seemed like an opportune time to drop a link. I assumed someone just changed the guest password, but it appears the database got in some strange locked state over night. It's sqlite since I want this to be as self-hostable as possible. Not sure if I somehow created a deadlock. It should be fixed now. I'd never seen this lextutor site, I find it very interesting, it looks like its they've got very similar ideas, I found this on the research page: "One ineresting use of VP (I believe the main one for users of online VP) is to evaluate the suitability of reading texts for various levels of learners.". That's basically what I'm doing at the moment. I'd also like to add an estimate of how many of the unknown lemma's i'm showing that you'd need to learn to get your comprehensions to 98% (or something like that) so that you'd know how much pre-studying might be worthwhile before diving into the text. I haven't done much research into it but the 98% number gets through around a lot as an ideal place to be to pick up the remaining words through context. edit: ah, just a few sentences down: "As a rule of thumb, learners can not do much with a text if they know fewer than 90% of its words. From 90% to 95% the text can be used intensively (for dictionary work, contextual inference, re-reads, etc.). From 95% to about 98%, the text can be used for fluency building. Above 98% the text can be used for 'reading to learn' rather than 'learning to read.'"
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

westiseast 10y ago

Can I ask respectfully what you mean by fluent? Only because...the textbook definition and the colloquial definition differ. I think generally when people say 'fluent' they mean 'native speaker level at reading, writing and speaking language X', whereas fluent actually means you can speak without hesitation on a range of topics. Just a clarification, not an attack! Edit: Plus, I wouldn't knock wordlists. I started trying to make wordlists only out of words I had some connection to, but you end up spending an inordinate amount of time making cards, and also then it's tempting to keep interrupting your reading to make new flashcards. I am 'fluent' in mandarin, and use HSK6 wordlists as a base. I learn a bunch of random words and then suddenly, when I'm reading an article, there's the word I learned a month ago. I don't need to interrupt my reading flow, and the connection has been made. Sometimes at advanced levels, you won't see a word that often, so it's wasteful to see it once, make a flashcard, and then never have another chance to see the word in a real world context for another 6 months.

laichzeit0 10y ago
I also have a problem with the word "fluent". Ok you say you're fluent, here's a simple self-check: Explain to someone in the language you claim to be fluent in how you'd go about making a fire without any matches. (hint: you need to use words like tinder, kindling, flint, etc.). If you can't do this, or grapple with the fact that you don't have a repertoire of these words in your vocabulary, you might want to reconsider your definition of "fluent".
- austinjp 10y ago
  There are different fluencies, all context dependent. A woodsman who knows all about kindling and flint would be bemused in an office environment where KPIs and stakeholder deliverables are core terms. In a programming environment they'd be utterly lost regarding the detail, even if they grasp basics like who's in charge. Or a chemistry lab, a surgical theatre, etc. This is why there are courses in "business" versions of languages, for example. So someone can be functionally fluent in the contexts they typically encounter, while being non-fluent outside them. I doubt any native speaker can be fully fluent in all possible contexts.

guitarbill 10y ago

> The most important part in my opinion is to live in a country that speaks the language you want to learn. You have to immerse yourself as much as possible with the culture and language. Also very important that you aren't afraid to try to use what you learned. I cannot agree with this more. Coincidentally, I'm also fluent in German and English, and am learning Japanese. At school, I took French, but I hated it. It only clicked when I went on an exchange, although I never kept it up. With English it was easier to pick up because of TV, films and games. But I only got good at it when I moved to the UK. The same with Japanese. Made almost no (real) progress until I went to Japan, and started using what I'd learned. Sure, learning the alphabet first helps, but language relies on being spoken IMO. If you can, take a chance and just move to a country that speaks the language you want to learn.

timonovici 10y ago
I had the same experience with French. I learned it for 10 years, I even won a national essay competition - guess what, when I was in France, I couldn't open my mouth. English on the other hand - I had only 2 years of study under my belt, and lots and lots of practice - movies, programming books, Shogun by James Clavell, song lyrics, chats on IRC, and so on. I'm fairly confident in my English skills. I know Russian a fair bit, and it's just a consequence of living in Moldova, where we have a lot of Russian influence and a lot of speakers of the language (16%) - but since I don't use it every day, I tend to forget it.
balakk 10y ago
I am learning french as well, via Duolingo. Spoken french fries my brain, I just cant keep up. So many words seem to be pronounced the same way. And they speak so fast! For example, did they say: jeune Jaune john je une Je un Joan Je ont Jean Je ne .... Perhaps it's just an unconscious bias on my part. Just for reference, I am fluent in at least two more languages apart from my mother tongue.
- Mikeb85 10y ago
  Well half of those you can eliminate because they're grammatically incorrect or make no sense. (Je une = nonsense, unless you mean J'ai une whatever, but still, very different) The others all have different pronunciations.

happyslobro 10y ago

As a guy who grew up in French immersion schools in Canada, I consider myself to be fluent in French, although my grammar isn't quite perfect. I don't mentally translate it to English in order to understand it, at any rate. Recently, I took a short trip that included a few days in Paris, and I made a point of defaulting to French when starting conversations. However, for the most part, as soon as a French person realizes that French is not my first language, they switch the conversation to English, even if their English is worse than my French (according to my perception). I wonder if this is unique to the culture of France, or at least Paris, that they do not like to hear their language from a foreigner? Maybe the language is part of a group identity, used to identify locals who can be trusted to follow local customs? It was a little saddening. In Africa and the Middle East however, when I am in predominantly French speaking communities, the locals seem quite happy to have conversations in French, even though our accents differ greatly.

Mikeb85 10y ago
It's mainly so they can practice their English, or just what they're used to with most foreigners. Leave the centre of Paris and they'll speak French, leave Paris and they won't speak English at all.
tux3 10y ago
>I wonder if this is unique to the culture of France, or at least Paris, that they do not like to hear their language from a foreigner? Maybe the language is part of a group identity, used to identify locals who can be trusted to follow local customs? It was a little saddening. I'm sorry to hear that. As a Parisian, I don't think this had anything to do with protecting an identity, rather we're just as happy to practice our (often terrible!) English as you are to practice your French!
- happyslobro 10y ago
  Haha, I never even considered that angle. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. Paris was amazing, and the people were merveilleux :)
- adrianratnapala 10y ago