4 ms·

Some of you may remember this article and these comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10252183 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10252183 When I r

Some of you may remember this article and these comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10252183 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10252183 When I read this, I immediately thought it was a red flag. So far, I have never heard of a founder/employee who successfully executes without sleeping or idolizing a mythical version of Steve jobs. I have a feeling that this is a clear pattern. Founders who claim not to need to sleep / date / etc. have major problems with their business.

nostromo 10y ago
As with all self-reported claims, take it with a grain of salt. Among my own entrepreneurial friends, I often notice a difference between self-reported hours worked and actual hours worked. I also notice a strong under-representation of hours slept, as if not getting enough sleep is the key to becoming an ubermensch. These aren't even dishonest people. I think there's just a lot of peer pressure in tech to brag about how much you work.
- wtvanhest 10y ago
  The self-reported lack of sleep is a pretty good indicator that the ceo/worker is focused on the wrong thing. Self reporting is probably a stronger signal than actually knowing how much they sleep!
- noam87 10y ago
  This. I can produce code for 4-5 hours a day, and my dumb face generally fills up a large percentage of the ticketing system's "done" column. Sure, there are emergency situations when a 14 hour shift is needed, but keep that up for long, and you and your project will suffer the consequences (found that out the hard way just recently). Has anyone here worked at a place where developers truly spend a 10 hours a day coding at full productivity? More likely they're lying to themselves: either they spend an inordinate amount of time at the water-cooler, or they're so slogged down can't remember what being productive feels like anymore. I also find that most days, by the time I've sat down to write a feature, I've already fleshed out how I'm going to implement it. A lot of the "work" happens in the shower, or while doing groceries, or while biking around the city. Then once a day I turn on my computer, bang out my solutions, do some code reviews, and turn that ungodly glowing screen right the hell back off. Not that it means spending the rest of the day idle... not working oneself to oblivion means time and energy left over for learning new things, doing math puzzles, playing with interesting technologies, reading, or simply relaxing and letting one's brain have some defrag time while staring at the ceiling. Many of the most useful patterns I've used to solve tough problems I only learned because I was playing with subjects wholly unrelated to my work. I can't imagine this not being true for everyone. I believe G.H Hardy said in "A Mathematician's Apology" that any more than 4 hours of mathematics a day was counterproductive. (As with everything: YMMV. But for me this holds true.)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
paulcole 10y ago
> Founders who claim not to need to sleep / date / etc. have major problems with their business. Who else is on this list besides Elizabeth Holmes? Also, don't most founders have problems with their business?
SEJeff 10y ago
Elon Musk doesn't sleep much, if I remember right he said about 4 hours per night once.
- pyrophane 10y ago
  He said he averages 6 hours of sleep per night: https://www.quora.com/How-does-Elon-Musk-thrive-on-little-sleep https://www.quora.com/How-does-Elon-Musk-thrive-on-little-sl...
- SmokyBorbon 10y ago
  Elon Musk, who makes cars nobody wants and spaceships that explode.
- darpa_escapee 10y ago
  What's an early grave worth?
  - colmvp 10y ago
    I'm sure he and a lot of other people would rather accomplish certain things in their life even if it means dying an early death, as opposed to living a long life that doesn't satisfy them. I realize that it's not always that cleanly zero sum, and yes, it's definitely possible to live a life that is both full and long, but in the case of Musk and perhaps others who put their heart and soul in their companies (especially during the early period), it's not so clearcut.
- pen2l 10y ago
  To contrast that, Linus Torvalds has said many times over the years that he gets at least 9 hours of sleep everyday (http://www.linuxscrew.com/2011/07/15/linus-torvalds-the-facts-you-didnt-know/ http://www.linuxscrew.com/2011/07/15/linus-torvalds-the-fact...). Me personally, I do NOT feel well if I haven't had a solid uninterrupted 8 hours of sleep.
  - RDaneel0livaw 10y ago
    I'm close to the same. I can function on 7, but any less than that and I'm a basketcase, and really do honestly need 8 a day. I feel like people think it's a virtue or something if they can get 4 hrs of sleep and not fall down from exhaustion, but in reality it's so unhealthy.
api 10y ago
It's also pretty common in startup and executive culture to lie about how many hours you work. It's a machismo thing. In reality people rarely actually work 80+ hours. Even if they are physically present that much they are not really working (in a productive / effective sense) for more then 50-60 hours of that time. Research has repeatedly shown that for most people productivity begins to decline after 40 hours a week and to tank after 50. Results can vary a bit from individual to individual and for different types of work. Knowledge work is usually worse in the sense that deep "flow state" focus can usually be sustained for even less time than this. Humans seem to be "burstable" in the sense that short duration crunch times can be done but they require rest afterwords to return to peak performance.
antisthenes 10y ago
How about just the quack factoid that veganism lets you function on less sleep? That's almost /r/shittyaskscience level.
- quickben 10y ago
  Well, maybe temporary because you are not processing heavy food. But long term that lack of b12 will have way more detrimental health and mental effects.

nostromo 10y ago

As with all self-reported claims, take it with a grain of salt. Among my own entrepreneurial friends, I often notice a difference between self-reported hours worked and actual hours worked. I also notice a strong under-representation of hours slept, as if not getting enough sleep is the key to becoming an ubermensch. These aren't even dishonest people. I think there's just a lot of peer pressure in tech to brag about how much you work.

wtvanhest 10y ago
The self-reported lack of sleep is a pretty good indicator that the ceo/worker is focused on the wrong thing. Self reporting is probably a stronger signal than actually knowing how much they sleep!
noam87 10y ago
This. I can produce code for 4-5 hours a day, and my dumb face generally fills up a large percentage of the ticketing system's "done" column. Sure, there are emergency situations when a 14 hour shift is needed, but keep that up for long, and you and your project will suffer the consequences (found that out the hard way just recently). Has anyone here worked at a place where developers truly spend a 10 hours a day coding at full productivity? More likely they're lying to themselves: either they spend an inordinate amount of time at the water-cooler, or they're so slogged down can't remember what being productive feels like anymore. I also find that most days, by the time I've sat down to write a feature, I've already fleshed out how I'm going to implement it. A lot of the "work" happens in the shower, or while doing groceries, or while biking around the city. Then once a day I turn on my computer, bang out my solutions, do some code reviews, and turn that ungodly glowing screen right the hell back off. Not that it means spending the rest of the day idle... not working oneself to oblivion means time and energy left over for learning new things, doing math puzzles, playing with interesting technologies, reading, or simply relaxing and letting one's brain have some defrag time while staring at the ceiling. Many of the most useful patterns I've used to solve tough problems I only learned because I was playing with subjects wholly unrelated to my work. I can't imagine this not being true for everyone. I believe G.H Hardy said in "A Mathematician's Apology" that any more than 4 hours of mathematics a day was counterproductive. (As with everything: YMMV. But for me this holds true.)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

paulcole 10y ago

> Founders who claim not to need to sleep / date / etc. have major problems with their business. Who else is on this list besides Elizabeth Holmes? Also, don't most founders have problems with their business?

SEJeff 10y ago

Elon Musk doesn't sleep much, if I remember right he said about 4 hours per night once.

pyrophane 10y ago
He said he averages 6 hours of sleep per night: https://www.quora.com/How-does-Elon-Musk-thrive-on-little-sleep https://www.quora.com/How-does-Elon-Musk-thrive-on-little-sl...
SmokyBorbon 10y ago
Elon Musk, who makes cars nobody wants and spaceships that explode.
darpa_escapee 10y ago
What's an early grave worth?
- colmvp 10y ago
  I'm sure he and a lot of other people would rather accomplish certain things in their life even if it means dying an early death, as opposed to living a long life that doesn't satisfy them. I realize that it's not always that cleanly zero sum, and yes, it's definitely possible to live a life that is both full and long, but in the case of Musk and perhaps others who put their heart and soul in their companies (especially during the early period), it's not so clearcut.
pen2l 10y ago
To contrast that, Linus Torvalds has said many times over the years that he gets at least 9 hours of sleep everyday (http://www.linuxscrew.com/2011/07/15/linus-torvalds-the-facts-you-didnt-know/ http://www.linuxscrew.com/2011/07/15/linus-torvalds-the-fact...). Me personally, I do NOT feel well if I haven't had a solid uninterrupted 8 hours of sleep.
- RDaneel0livaw 10y ago
  I'm close to the same. I can function on 7, but any less than that and I'm a basketcase, and really do honestly need 8 a day. I feel like people think it's a virtue or something if they can get 4 hrs of sleep and not fall down from exhaustion, but in reality it's so unhealthy.

api 10y ago

It's also pretty common in startup and executive culture to lie about how many hours you work. It's a machismo thing. In reality people rarely actually work 80+ hours. Even if they are physically present that much they are not really working (in a productive / effective sense) for more then 50-60 hours of that time. Research has repeatedly shown that for most people productivity begins to decline after 40 hours a week and to tank after 50. Results can vary a bit from individual to individual and for different types of work. Knowledge work is usually worse in the sense that deep "flow state" focus can usually be sustained for even less time than this. Humans seem to be "burstable" in the sense that short duration crunch times can be done but they require rest afterwords to return to peak performance.

antisthenes 10y ago

How about just the quack factoid that veganism lets you function on less sleep? That's almost /r/shittyaskscience level.

quickben 10y ago
Well, maybe temporary because you are not processing heavy food. But long term that lack of b12 will have way more detrimental health and mental effects.