5 ms·

>Overall, I wouldn't say Android is poorly designed, it's just mediocre I think it is mostly have to do with company's talent pool and focus. As far as I can

by 0xFFC 10y ago

>Overall, I wouldn't say Android is poorly designed, it's just mediocre I think it is mostly have to do with company's talent pool and focus. As far as I can see (I may be wrong, this is my estimate) Google tries hard to devote best talents to 1) ads and Search and it's maintaining 2) Chrome team 3) Google apps and services online and on iPhones. After these option they try to develop Android as kinda (I don't know what is they correct word, so I am going with kinda) side project because they know the world needs an open platform for competing with apples devices. The reason because why Android is unacceptable from Google is we all used Google's best products. Chrome and search and we kinda (by default) think about Google as non fallible. But that's nowhere near the reality, they have limited number of super smart guys, and they try their best to keep core products (search and browser) much better than competitors. Most of the time when Google does release a new app their iOS apps is better than Android's ones. We would be okay if Android was from mediocre company. But it is not, it is from Google , which is the best in some areas. But they don't have unlimited talent. They are trying their best to balance. I am not saying people who worked on Android are not that bright. No I am talking about more broader picture. Of course there some excellent people who work on Android. But I am not talking about 1,2 or three. I am talking about management perspective in broader sense. This is my personal understanding, I may be completely wrong.

yincrash 10y ago
What are examples of the iOS app of a Google product being better than the Android one? Also, can I ask which OS you primarily use for mobile?
- 0xFFC 10y ago
  Just Google it. http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/8/12109832/google-apps-iphone-android-motion-stills-gboard-search-hangouts http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/8/12109832/google-apps-iphone... There is so much articles and news about it. It is completely rational decision. Google like any other company at the end wants to maximize its profit, and iPhone is where the money is (Google it, 84% of profit of whole market goes to apples pocket_ I don't remember exact number). I have used HTC desire around 2011 (I don't remember the exact model name) and my gf was using Samsung note (around the same time) the experience was disaster, no updates, bloated software, no bug fix, nos security fixes. Nothing,pure marketing and pure rip off. After a year I switched to Nexus line and my gf using iPhone. We haven't thought about buying anything else since then. And right now , with this update problem Google imposing on Nexus line, my last hope for Android is dieing and I am considering buying iPhone. I switched from Nexus 4 to Nexus 5. It is unacceptable to me, device as capable as Nexus 5 doesnt get N update. Why would I use Android when I have better support, long term update with iPhone almost for same price (I could have bought iPhone 5 for 100$ 150$ more when I bought Nexus 5. Which was total mistake) And remember developing for Android is what I do for living. So I am so enthusiastic about androids future. I have really high hopes for Windows 10 phone. Their continum can be game changer. And don't forget Google is not software company, they are IT company. But Microsoft is different, they are biggest most successful software company in humankind history. They know how to develop software. The problem with their failure was stupid manager (Steve ballmer). Which is now solved. I hope they can compete with iPhone with their surface phone line. We will see how it is going to pan out.
  - imtringued 10y ago
    This is not a problem with android or google. The only way you can avoid this update problem is to convince ARM SoC manufacturers to standardise their SoCs instead of cooking their own soup every time. I think this is never going to happen. Apple doesn't need to standardise. They can get away with just supporting their own devices.
    - newscracker 10y ago
      Even if the SoCs are standardized and drivers are updated, do you think the manufacturers have any motive or incentive to provide updates to the customers for older models? Most of them sell phones for low prices at very thin margins or at a loss and rely on releasing newer models more often to keep up sales. Even with standardization, hardware differences will necessitate testing on older devices. That does not come for free for the manufacturers, and it has been, and is seen as, an entirely avoidable and unnecessary expense (which is one big reason they don't provide updates for a longer duration right now). Are the majority of customers even capable of dealing with rooting the phone or flashing it with some un-tested firmware? The phone makers and customers are used to not having updates for a long time, and neither of them really care (if you look at the majority non-tech crowd). Why or how would all these other dynamics change just because SoCs get standardized (if that happens)?
      - digi_owl 10y ago
        If one get the driver side sorted, it will be easier for Google to push for a scheme similar to Windows. On top of that Google could implement a standardized UI themeing system, allowing companies to give their products a distinct experience without having to muck with the code as much.
    - grey-area 10y ago
      This is not a problem with android or google. It may not be their fault, but it is their problem. This is a huge problem for Android as a platform.
  - ghans 10y ago
macco 10y ago
I really doubt that. By the way, I think Android UI works much better than iOS's.
- 0xFFC 10y ago
  >By the way, I think Android UI works much better than iOS's. You should be specific about what about Android UI is better than iOS? if you are saying android UI design is better than iOS , I agree , but remember Material design is not android's design. Google wants to expend to every platform, it is quite childish if we think they could expand to every platform without having professional UI design language for themselves. They designed Material design for all of their product, not just for android. Yes android was first one to adopt, and I really like Material design. So if you are talking about material design , it was not only for android, it was actually Google Design language, and I really like it. But if you are talking about performance and how ui fits together, I disagree 100% , for example they didn't had splashscreen for long long time (If I remember correctly they adopt splash screen a year o two ago), every time you were going to open an app, you were noticing a blank screen for quite a long time some times(1,2 second) which was quite ridiculous. At the other hand iOS had fixed splash screen for quite long time. Some third party apps tried to develop splash screen of their own , but almost all the time result was not on par (not even close) with iOS counterparts. Right now their rotation animation have problems which can show itself under pressure. and so many thing I don't even remember right now. I am not saying android is bad or something , android is wonderful product. But lets be honest, it is not core product for Google like chrome is, and it has huge problems. But its main advantage is its openness.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    > remember Material design is not android's design. Aka as Metro design language actually.
  - vetinari 10y ago
    UI is not only design, but also UX. One of big Android advantages are activities and intents. It allows for application cooperation in a way that's not possible on iPhone. Even the default app concept is based on intent handling - and that's why I can use Firefox as my default browser, Nine as my default mail app and Sygic as my default navigation and send stuff from other apps over Threema. On iPhone, I would be stuck with Safari/Apple mail/Apple maps/iMessage no matter what others offer. This also affects integration from third parties. There's no reason for an app to support just Dropbox, when there are intents, that all other services support. Unless you want to artificially limit the integration, or you came from iOS and are not used to that.
m_fayer 10y ago
I think you're right. Or at least, they're not devoting a certain kind of talent to Android. Look at Google's efforts on web frontend - GWT, Polymer, Angular 1/2, embracing TypeScript, RxJS, and so on. In other words, they've devoted significant resources to high-level application patterns, emerging paradigms, and in general - improving developer experience. The Chrome devtools are another example. On Android, not only is their policy to "remain neutral" on architecture and paradigms, but they don't even bother to update the platform enough to let the community take on the architectural work. The tooling is 1 step forward 2 steps back, new language features (or languages!) do not seem to be a priority, fixing fundamental design errors (multidex) is also not a priority, things like databinding are trotted out and then stagnate, and so on. The only conclusion I'm left to draw is that Android is the new Windows. Why should Google care about developer experience on Android when it owns 70% of the market.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  I wonder how much that has to do with Android originating from outside Google. Never mind that Google may well be Apple's biggest hardware customer (the Chromebook Pixel seems to have been an attempt at getting employees off their Macbook addiction). There seems to have been something of a civil war right around the launch of Android Honeycomb/3.0, as that was also when Chromebooks happened. All of a sudden you had two platforms, both angling for "landscape" devices.
  - m_fayer 10y ago
    It's been over a decade and over 10 major releases since Google acquired Android. If they still haven't managed to completely absorb it, culturally and technically, then I've underestimated just how dysfunctional Google is.
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      Rubin may have been a big reason. I seem to recall that he was the one that insisted that Android was for phones, and thus devices without a mobile radio was unable to get a CDD certification.
HNSucksAss 10y ago
When you really look at Google's offerings, however, they suck. Their UI is terrible and their branding is worse. We have dozens or hundreds of essentially proprietary versions of Android running around, which can't be updated. The great "open-source" OS that would save us all from vendor and telco tyranny most certainly DID NOT. The failure to create a proper hardware abstraction layer and driver model is just embarrassing. Ugh, even Google's Web offerings suffer from UI incompetence and hypocrisy: Google declared that they'd "punish" Web sites that aren't "mobile-friendly," so what does Google do? DISABLE ZOOMING on mobile browsers on ITS OWN site.
botverse 10y ago
> As far as I can see (I may be wrong, this is my estimate) Google tries hard to devote best talents to 1) ads and Search and it's maintaining 2) Chrome team 3) Google apps and services online and on iPhones. I don't know where you would insert WebApps in this list but it looks like that they are taking bigger portions of the Google Keynotes lately. Seems that Google is pursuing to arrive quick to the point where WebApps can substitute native apps. You can skip app stores (manifest), run apps in the background, synchronize and receive push notifications (service workers). They have dedicated talented people to design the specs (like Jake Archivald) and they are early adopters of them (Chrome and Android). WebApps are probably the greater threat to native apps. Apple resists hard to them (imagine the profit loss if anyone can bypass the App Store and it's commission e.g. Amazon). Webapps can't be used for high performance applications like games, music or VR. But definitely can make that talent or atention to be taken from the native ones.

by 0xFFC 10y ago

yincrash 10y ago

What are examples of the iOS app of a Google product being better than the Android one? Also, can I ask which OS you primarily use for mobile?

0xFFC 10y ago
Just Google it. http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/8/12109832/google-apps-iphone-android-motion-stills-gboard-search-hangouts http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/8/12109832/google-apps-iphone... There is so much articles and news about it. It is completely rational decision. Google like any other company at the end wants to maximize its profit, and iPhone is where the money is (Google it, 84% of profit of whole market goes to apples pocket_ I don't remember exact number). I have used HTC desire around 2011 (I don't remember the exact model name) and my gf was using Samsung note (around the same time) the experience was disaster, no updates, bloated software, no bug fix, nos security fixes. Nothing,pure marketing and pure rip off. After a year I switched to Nexus line and my gf using iPhone. We haven't thought about buying anything else since then. And right now , with this update problem Google imposing on Nexus line, my last hope for Android is dieing and I am considering buying iPhone. I switched from Nexus 4 to Nexus 5. It is unacceptable to me, device as capable as Nexus 5 doesnt get N update. Why would I use Android when I have better support, long term update with iPhone almost for same price (I could have bought iPhone 5 for 100$ 150$ more when I bought Nexus 5. Which was total mistake) And remember developing for Android is what I do for living. So I am so enthusiastic about androids future. I have really high hopes for Windows 10 phone. Their continum can be game changer. And don't forget Google is not software company, they are IT company. But Microsoft is different, they are biggest most successful software company in humankind history. They know how to develop software. The problem with their failure was stupid manager (Steve ballmer). Which is now solved. I hope they can compete with iPhone with their surface phone line. We will see how it is going to pan out.
- imtringued 10y ago
  This is not a problem with android or google. The only way you can avoid this update problem is to convince ARM SoC manufacturers to standardise their SoCs instead of cooking their own soup every time. I think this is never going to happen. Apple doesn't need to standardise. They can get away with just supporting their own devices.
  - newscracker 10y ago
    Even if the SoCs are standardized and drivers are updated, do you think the manufacturers have any motive or incentive to provide updates to the customers for older models? Most of them sell phones for low prices at very thin margins or at a loss and rely on releasing newer models more often to keep up sales. Even with standardization, hardware differences will necessitate testing on older devices. That does not come for free for the manufacturers, and it has been, and is seen as, an entirely avoidable and unnecessary expense (which is one big reason they don't provide updates for a longer duration right now). Are the majority of customers even capable of dealing with rooting the phone or flashing it with some un-tested firmware? The phone makers and customers are used to not having updates for a long time, and neither of them really care (if you look at the majority non-tech crowd). Why or how would all these other dynamics change just because SoCs get standardized (if that happens)?
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      If one get the driver side sorted, it will be easier for Google to push for a scheme similar to Windows. On top of that Google could implement a standardized UI themeing system, allowing companies to give their products a distinct experience without having to muck with the code as much.
  - grey-area 10y ago
    This is not a problem with android or google. It may not be their fault, but it is their problem. This is a huge problem for Android as a platform.
- ghans 10y ago

macco 10y ago

I really doubt that. By the way, I think Android UI works much better than iOS's.

0xFFC 10y ago
>By the way, I think Android UI works much better than iOS's. You should be specific about what about Android UI is better than iOS? if you are saying android UI design is better than iOS , I agree , but remember Material design is not android's design. Google wants to expend to every platform, it is quite childish if we think they could expand to every platform without having professional UI design language for themselves. They designed Material design for all of their product, not just for android. Yes android was first one to adopt, and I really like Material design. So if you are talking about material design , it was not only for android, it was actually Google Design language, and I really like it. But if you are talking about performance and how ui fits together, I disagree 100% , for example they didn't had splashscreen for long long time (If I remember correctly they adopt splash screen a year o two ago), every time you were going to open an app, you were noticing a blank screen for quite a long time some times(1,2 second) which was quite ridiculous. At the other hand iOS had fixed splash screen for quite long time. Some third party apps tried to develop splash screen of their own , but almost all the time result was not on par (not even close) with iOS counterparts. Right now their rotation animation have problems which can show itself under pressure. and so many thing I don't even remember right now. I am not saying android is bad or something , android is wonderful product. But lets be honest, it is not core product for Google like chrome is, and it has huge problems. But its main advantage is its openness.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  > remember Material design is not android's design. Aka as Metro design language actually.
- vetinari 10y ago
  UI is not only design, but also UX. One of big Android advantages are activities and intents. It allows for application cooperation in a way that's not possible on iPhone. Even the default app concept is based on intent handling - and that's why I can use Firefox as my default browser, Nine as my default mail app and Sygic as my default navigation and send stuff from other apps over Threema. On iPhone, I would be stuck with Safari/Apple mail/Apple maps/iMessage no matter what others offer. This also affects integration from third parties. There's no reason for an app to support just Dropbox, when there are intents, that all other services support. Unless you want to artificially limit the integration, or you came from iOS and are not used to that.

m_fayer 10y ago

I think you're right. Or at least, they're not devoting a certain kind of talent to Android. Look at Google's efforts on web frontend - GWT, Polymer, Angular 1/2, embracing TypeScript, RxJS, and so on. In other words, they've devoted significant resources to high-level application patterns, emerging paradigms, and in general - improving developer experience. The Chrome devtools are another example. On Android, not only is their policy to "remain neutral" on architecture and paradigms, but they don't even bother to update the platform enough to let the community take on the architectural work. The tooling is 1 step forward 2 steps back, new language features (or languages!) do not seem to be a priority, fixing fundamental design errors (multidex) is also not a priority, things like databinding are trotted out and then stagnate, and so on. The only conclusion I'm left to draw is that Android is the new Windows. Why should Google care about developer experience on Android when it owns 70% of the market.

digi_owl 10y ago
I wonder how much that has to do with Android originating from outside Google. Never mind that Google may well be Apple's biggest hardware customer (the Chromebook Pixel seems to have been an attempt at getting employees off their Macbook addiction). There seems to have been something of a civil war right around the launch of Android Honeycomb/3.0, as that was also when Chromebooks happened. All of a sudden you had two platforms, both angling for "landscape" devices.
- m_fayer 10y ago
  It's been over a decade and over 10 major releases since Google acquired Android. If they still haven't managed to completely absorb it, culturally and technically, then I've underestimated just how dysfunctional Google is.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    Rubin may have been a big reason. I seem to recall that he was the one that insisted that Android was for phones, and thus devices without a mobile radio was unable to get a CDD certification.

HNSucksAss 10y ago

When you really look at Google's offerings, however, they suck. Their UI is terrible and their branding is worse. We have dozens or hundreds of essentially proprietary versions of Android running around, which can't be updated. The great "open-source" OS that would save us all from vendor and telco tyranny most certainly DID NOT. The failure to create a proper hardware abstraction layer and driver model is just embarrassing. Ugh, even Google's Web offerings suffer from UI incompetence and hypocrisy: Google declared that they'd "punish" Web sites that aren't "mobile-friendly," so what does Google do? DISABLE ZOOMING on mobile browsers on ITS OWN site.

botverse 10y ago

> As far as I can see (I may be wrong, this is my estimate) Google tries hard to devote best talents to 1) ads and Search and it's maintaining 2) Chrome team 3) Google apps and services online and on iPhones. I don't know where you would insert WebApps in this list but it looks like that they are taking bigger portions of the Google Keynotes lately. Seems that Google is pursuing to arrive quick to the point where WebApps can substitute native apps. You can skip app stores (manifest), run apps in the background, synchronize and receive push notifications (service workers). They have dedicated talented people to design the specs (like Jake Archivald) and they are early adopters of them (Chrome and Android). WebApps are probably the greater threat to native apps. Apple resists hard to them (imagine the profit loss if anyone can bypass the App Store and it's commission e.g. Amazon). Webapps can't be used for high performance applications like games, music or VR. But definitely can make that talent or atention to be taken from the native ones.