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I remember I made the same argument about women in chess (those already playing competitively should be better on average than men because it's harder to get in

I remember I made the same argument about women in chess (those already playing competitively should be better on average than men because it's harder to get into chess when you are a woman so only the most talented/driven ones make it). I was called sexist in that discussion though as chess is way more meritocratic than corporate career so the implications are that it's likely biological afterall. >>It's not some feminist conspiracy that women are being promoted You have to admit though that "diversity" is mentioned a lot and striving for "diversity" in fact makes it easier for women to get into management position. I am not saying it's the only factor but it is one impossible to deny.

Mz 10y ago
You have to admit though that "diversity" is mentioned a lot and striving for "diversity" in fact makes it easier for women to get into management position. I am not saying it's the only factor but it is one impossible to deny. My ex husband was career army. While in the military, he double majored in CS and history. He was a socially awkward nerd. He rose though the ranks quickly. He once admitted that while excelled at the technical stuff, the fact that he was married to me was a big part of why he was a decent manager once he got promoted to the military equivalent of mid level manager. There have been studies that indicate women think of "morality" different from men -- that their idea of morality is more about caring about people. Perhaps the same traits -- caring about others -- that help make women good mothers also help make them good managers. The paternal role is typically different from the maternal one.
- bluecalm 10y ago
  My point was that: "we strive for diversity" = discimination against men. Your story is interesting but I don't see how it relates to my point. If women are naturally better managers they would in fact make it more often to managerial positions - I am all for that (as I think genders are different and men are naturally better at some things and women are better at other things and fighting this is not a good idea) but if that's the case we should get rid of all diversity planning and "striving to have more women" as that's tipping the odds even more.
  - Mz 10y ago
    If women are naturally better managers they would in fact make it more often to managerial positions Not necessarily. You can be really talented and completely overlooked due to discrimination/bias/prejudice. There is plenty of evidence that people expect leaders to be tall, have deep voices, broad shoulders, etc -- ie look and sound like a man. They have studied this. Others here are suggesting that women get promoted faster in IT because only the best and most dedicated stay. If you are already good and also happen to have traits that are beneficial when assigned managerial tasks, then that could go hand-in-hand. They may be approaching diversity efforts all wrong. I suspect they are and I do my best to advocate for another path. However, most men who criticize this stuff do not genuinely seem to be interested in a better path forward. They seem to be interested in coming up with some justification for "we should keep advantaging men the way we do now -- that works for me! -- and stop trying to do anything to dismantle the very real barriers women face."

Mz 10y ago

You have to admit though that "diversity" is mentioned a lot and striving for "diversity" in fact makes it easier for women to get into management position. I am not saying it's the only factor but it is one impossible to deny. My ex husband was career army. While in the military, he double majored in CS and history. He was a socially awkward nerd. He rose though the ranks quickly. He once admitted that while excelled at the technical stuff, the fact that he was married to me was a big part of why he was a decent manager once he got promoted to the military equivalent of mid level manager. There have been studies that indicate women think of "morality" different from men -- that their idea of morality is more about caring about people. Perhaps the same traits -- caring about others -- that help make women good mothers also help make them good managers. The paternal role is typically different from the maternal one.

bluecalm 10y ago
My point was that: "we strive for diversity" = discimination against men. Your story is interesting but I don't see how it relates to my point. If women are naturally better managers they would in fact make it more often to managerial positions - I am all for that (as I think genders are different and men are naturally better at some things and women are better at other things and fighting this is not a good idea) but if that's the case we should get rid of all diversity planning and "striving to have more women" as that's tipping the odds even more.
- Mz 10y ago
  If women are naturally better managers they would in fact make it more often to managerial positions Not necessarily. You can be really talented and completely overlooked due to discrimination/bias/prejudice. There is plenty of evidence that people expect leaders to be tall, have deep voices, broad shoulders, etc -- ie look and sound like a man. They have studied this. Others here are suggesting that women get promoted faster in IT because only the best and most dedicated stay. If you are already good and also happen to have traits that are beneficial when assigned managerial tasks, then that could go hand-in-hand. They may be approaching diversity efforts all wrong. I suspect they are and I do my best to advocate for another path. However, most men who criticize this stuff do not genuinely seem to be interested in a better path forward. They seem to be interested in coming up with some justification for "we should keep advantaging men the way we do now -- that works for me! -- and stop trying to do anything to dismantle the very real barriers women face."