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Following the logic of most mental gymnasts here, the best IT companies should be women-only companies by now. People seem automatically to turn off their brain

by return0 10y ago

Following the logic of most mental gymnasts here, the best IT companies should be women-only companies by now. People seem automatically to turn off their brains when discussing anything that might oppose the orthodoxy of affirmative action. This is a case where a bias that first appeared in academia (http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2015/04/women-preferred-21-over-men-stem-faculty-positions http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2015/04/women-preferred-...) and is now bleeding to corporate life. If men or any other subgroup are not rising through the ranks as fast, that is a clear discrimination and it is a problem, not an 'achievement'. It's this kind of ill-logic that brings pro-women policies in a bad light.

mcv 10y ago
Because there are less women in tech, the best companies should be all women? That logic makes no sense. If only the best women are hired, while average men also get hired, that means there's discrimination against women, while the few women that do stay in the industry will tend to be of above average ability, and therefore rise faster. As long as the vast majority of programmers are men, it's ludicrous to complain that men are being discriminated against. There are dozens of studies showing that men have it way easier in a multitude of ways. But it's good that there are more visible women in tech, and hopefully that will lead to even out the balance in the future.
- bluecalm 10y ago
  >>As long as the vast majority of programmers are men, it's ludicrous to complain that men are being discriminated against Let me stop you here. This is a flawed argument. It's very possible that men gravitate to a certain field more than women but there is discrimination against men in that field (for example if companies think it's good PR to have more women at top positions). I am not arguing if that actually happens or not here. I am just pointing out that your argument is logically flawed. I can even give you an example of discrimination against majority group: it's beneficial to be tall white man in many Asian countries. You get more respect and bring prestige to the company. Tall white men are not majority but still they are favored and their Asian counterparts are discriminated against.
- clifanatic 10y ago
  > As long as the vast majority of programmers are men, it's ludicrous to complain that men are being discriminated against. If the majority of programmers were, say, Asian, then, would that imply that white people were being discriminated against?
- return0 10y ago
  Surely it makes sense, like everything else in these comments! If societal bias filters only high-performing women into tech, then the company that managed to snatch all the females would surely have an advantage versus all the rest. But let's not stop there with this rabbit hole: if indeed hiring bias is the cause that women rise faster in tech, and we want women to reach the highest echelons of tech industries, then logic dictates that we should keep discriminating with equal vigor, or else women will stop rising the ranks, leaving the goal unfinished. Oh, and by the way we could apply this wise reasoning to any kind of group that is disadvantaged in tech, say, the blind, the latinos, the blacks, those under 6 years old etc. They should all be rising higher in the ranks, so that soon all senior positions are filled by minority groups, leaving the "averages" in the lower ranks. simple logic.
  - mcv 10y ago
    If a company is more eager to hire women, they'd probably end up hiring more average women, and the difference between men and women would go away. Also, there are still plenty of above average men. The smartest company would hire the best men and women, not hire just women, on the assumption that women are better than men, because that assumption would end up defeating itself. Though if a company only hire people who already established themselves at other companies, and hire them blindly, only knowing their gender and nothing about their performance, I suppose hiring women would be the better bet.

by return0 10y ago

mcv 10y ago

Because there are less women in tech, the best companies should be all women? That logic makes no sense. If only the best women are hired, while average men also get hired, that means there's discrimination against women, while the few women that do stay in the industry will tend to be of above average ability, and therefore rise faster. As long as the vast majority of programmers are men, it's ludicrous to complain that men are being discriminated against. There are dozens of studies showing that men have it way easier in a multitude of ways. But it's good that there are more visible women in tech, and hopefully that will lead to even out the balance in the future.

bluecalm 10y ago
>>As long as the vast majority of programmers are men, it's ludicrous to complain that men are being discriminated against Let me stop you here. This is a flawed argument. It's very possible that men gravitate to a certain field more than women but there is discrimination against men in that field (for example if companies think it's good PR to have more women at top positions). I am not arguing if that actually happens or not here. I am just pointing out that your argument is logically flawed. I can even give you an example of discrimination against majority group: it's beneficial to be tall white man in many Asian countries. You get more respect and bring prestige to the company. Tall white men are not majority but still they are favored and their Asian counterparts are discriminated against.
clifanatic 10y ago
> As long as the vast majority of programmers are men, it's ludicrous to complain that men are being discriminated against. If the majority of programmers were, say, Asian, then, would that imply that white people were being discriminated against?
return0 10y ago
Surely it makes sense, like everything else in these comments! If societal bias filters only high-performing women into tech, then the company that managed to snatch all the females would surely have an advantage versus all the rest. But let's not stop there with this rabbit hole: if indeed hiring bias is the cause that women rise faster in tech, and we want women to reach the highest echelons of tech industries, then logic dictates that we should keep discriminating with equal vigor, or else women will stop rising the ranks, leaving the goal unfinished. Oh, and by the way we could apply this wise reasoning to any kind of group that is disadvantaged in tech, say, the blind, the latinos, the blacks, those under 6 years old etc. They should all be rising higher in the ranks, so that soon all senior positions are filled by minority groups, leaving the "averages" in the lower ranks. simple logic.
- mcv 10y ago
  If a company is more eager to hire women, they'd probably end up hiring more average women, and the difference between men and women would go away. Also, there are still plenty of above average men. The smartest company would hire the best men and women, not hire just women, on the assumption that women are better than men, because that assumption would end up defeating itself. Though if a company only hire people who already established themselves at other companies, and hire them blindly, only knowing their gender and nothing about their performance, I suppose hiring women would be the better bet.