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"I know it's hard to believe, but women don't usually get sent to coding summer camp as teenagers. Our parents don't usually encourage us to take AP computer sc

"I know it's hard to believe, but women don't usually get sent to coding summer camp as teenagers. Our parents don't usually encourage us to take AP computer science, and our best friends aren't in CS and don't refer us for sweet internships at Microsoft and Google." Is it hard to believe most men don't do those things, too? Some do, sure. And of people that do these things, historically more have probably been men than women (don't have the stats, but it sounds reasonable). But how many men do you think do those things, vs those that don't? Some anecdata: I didn't do any of those. Of all the engineers I can think of, male and female, very very few went to coding summer camps or took AP computer science. Few had best friends in CS in university, but sure, more did this than AP computer science or coding summer camp. And few had sweet internships at tech companies.

calex 10y ago
Oh great, more anecdotes in this thread. There are the cold hard facts, you know: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/01/techs-gender-and-race-gap-starts-in-high-school/282966/ http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/01/techs-g... >"It's already too late," Paul Graham, founder of the tech entrepreneur boot camp Y Combinator, said last month in a controversial interview. "What we should be doing is somehow changing the middle school computer science curriculum or something like that." >Ericson's analysis of the data shows that in 2013, 18 percent of the students who took the [AP computer science] exam were women. Who makes high school students' schedules? Parents and teachers, at least in the US. So let's put aside anecdotes and reactionary attitudes and just look at the facts.
- FT_intern 10y ago
  >Who makes high school students' schedules? The students. AP comp sci at my high school was an elective that people took. The people who didn't take it chose whatever elective they were interested in (water basket weaving, guitar, etc.). And what motivated the people to choose AP comp sci? This is just an anecdote but almost everyone in my AP comp sci class was into gaming/nerdy hobbies/internet forums/etc.
  - warfangle 10y ago
    Would you be surprised to find out that some parents decide on their high school students' electives for them?
    - FT_intern 10y ago
      If you mean "decide" as in force them to take it, then yes I would be surprised. In my experience, even the high achieving parents didn't force them to take specific classes. They put pressure on their kids (both genders equally, tiger mom does not care about gender roles) to take STEM AP classes in general instead of specific ones. Those students decide which STEM AP classes to take (except for Calc which parents stressed more). This was before knowledge of comp sci salaries have gone mainstream (before 2012), although it's still a relevant, anecdotal reflection on the backgrounds of current software engineers. My AP comp sci class was actually composed of non-high achieving people. AP comp sci was the only AP class many of the students took. The high achieving students didn't take AP comp sci for whatever reason. I think AP comp sci was actually considered lower status/prestige compared to the sciences Physics/Chem/Bio among the high achieving students.
      - warfangle 10y ago
        > The high achieving students didn't take AP comp sci for whatever reason. Maybe they didn't like to take classes filled with spiteful boys with chips on their shoulders? The 'whatever reason' is the important part.
        FT_intern 10y ago
        So anyone who is interested in CS and is of the gender male is spiteful? That's sexist.
  - rickyc091 10y ago
    As someone who teaches females in middle school HTML/CSS this is very accurate. While the vast majority of them enjoy the course, when I survey them if they would continue learning to code they respond no more often than not. Social stigma plays a large role at that age; this is also when they start thinking about boys and having self expression (clothes, music, books). It's _nerdy_ to be interested in computers. The know-it-all also becomes the outcast. That's the geek or loser. There's nothing more important than social status. It's really unfortunate.
- reader5000 10y ago
  AP is generally elective.
- this2shallpaas 10y ago
  Happy to look at the facts. That more men than women take coding summer camps, AP CS, have friends who are CS major, or get referrals to top companies sound believable. Presenting evidence in the form of cold hard believable statistics would be nice. I don't see any, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, because I believe those claims anyway (though the AP CS stats of recent times might be different - what parent doesn't want their child to program? And women tend to get better grades than men and perform better in school settings, so more women might be in AP CS classes in recent years). Again, men don't usually do the things you're claiming, either. You're claiming it with the language "women don't usually" because usually means more often than not - over half. But I'm open to changing my mind with stats. I'm happy to look at any you provide. Do you have stats on most men being sent to coding summer camp as teenagers? Most men having parents that encourage them to take AP computer science? Most men having best friends who are in CS? Most men who refer them for sweet internships at Microsoft and Google? Men usually don't do those things either. Just because more of the people that do those things are men than women, does not mean men, in general, do those things. That's my point.
  - dsp1234 10y ago
    what parent doesn't want their child to program? In a weird sort of coincidence, I was recently talking to all of my couple friends at a large party. Of the 5 couples there, only 1 person had any desire to see their child(ren) go into programming. That particular child was a boy. So there's some more anecdata, but basically I've never heard a non-programmer parent say they want their child to go into programming. It's always been something along the lines of "I want my child to do the same thing I do" or "I want my child to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer"
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    No one claimed "most men _______." The claim is that your average woman who is employed in this sector faced more adversity than your average man who is employed in this sector. Therefore, you'd expect the average woman employed to have more grit than the average man employed, since the women with less determination were filtered by various filters that don't exist for men. You could argue that it's not a filter against women but a magnet towards men, but that doesn't actually change the crux of the argument. There is clearly something that causes only 18% of AP CS exams being taken by women.
- mpweiher 10y ago
  > Who makes high school students' schedules? Parents and teachers, at least in the US. As you were blasting "anecdotes", please note that this isn't even anecdote, just blind assertion, so: "Citation needed". In my experience, high school students largely decide their own schedules according to their interests and abilities. Ahh, speaking of interests, and facts/data: https://scientificfemanomaly.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/femalestem.png https://scientificfemanomaly.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/fem... Interest by high school students in STEM fields. Girls 15% and falling, boys 45% and rising. More facts/data: http://mjperry.blogspot.de/2009/08/2009-math-sat-scores-are-in-gender-gap.html http://mjperry.blogspot.de/2009/08/2009-math-sat-scores-are-... Gender gap in SAT scores persists. Yes, let's look at the facts!
  - zeppelin101 10y ago
    Fact: facts are sometimes sexist.
    - ethanbond 10y ago
      Or interests/passions are in fact highly dependent upon social factors, such as sexism. How many men do you know who are ballet dancers? Do you think that's because there's actually something present in the DNA of little girls that's not present in the DNA of little boys that makes them interested in ballet? Or could it be because if you're a little girl who dances it's cute/pretty and if you're a boy it's because you're gay/weak? This is the problem. If men hold a monopoly on powerful or lucrative roles in society, that monopoly will reign through the establishment of gender-dichotomous "interests and passions." Of course gender doesn't play any intrinsic role in whether you're into ballet. Nor does it play any intrinsic role in whether you're into computer science.
      - lliamander 10y ago
        Perhaps I don't know enough about ballet, but my understanding was that it is physically demanding in ways that favor female physiology over male physiology (e.g. requires more flexibility). Not to say that the cultural aspect isn't there, but rather that the cultural aspect may be influenced by biological differences.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- clifanatic 10y ago
  > Ericson's analysis of the data shows that in 2013, 18 percent of the students who took the [AP computer science] exam were women. I did a master's degree in computer science at the University of Texas at Arlington about 10 years ago. When I was there, I was one of only two white people (male or female) in the entire program, and one of only about five that weren't Indian citizens on special student visas. So Indian citizens, while making up a minuscule portion of the US population, represented 95+% of the CS student population at an American university. So, which is it? Did UT Arlington commit a massive conspiracy to discriminate against white men? Or is it just that the people who were most interested and most inclined happened to be the ones that ended up there?
pyre 10y ago
> Is it hard to believe most men don't do those things, too? Some do, sure. I think this is more of a "of the people that get these things, most are men" than a "all men get these things."
- calex 10y ago
  YES, this is exactly what I meant. Thank you for not misunderstanding me.

calex 10y ago

Oh great, more anecdotes in this thread. There are the cold hard facts, you know: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/01/techs-gender-and-race-gap-starts-in-high-school/282966/ http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/01/techs-g... >"It's already too late," Paul Graham, founder of the tech entrepreneur boot camp Y Combinator, said last month in a controversial interview. "What we should be doing is somehow changing the middle school computer science curriculum or something like that." >Ericson's analysis of the data shows that in 2013, 18 percent of the students who took the [AP computer science] exam were women. Who makes high school students' schedules? Parents and teachers, at least in the US. So let's put aside anecdotes and reactionary attitudes and just look at the facts.

FT_intern 10y ago
>Who makes high school students' schedules? The students. AP comp sci at my high school was an elective that people took. The people who didn't take it chose whatever elective they were interested in (water basket weaving, guitar, etc.). And what motivated the people to choose AP comp sci? This is just an anecdote but almost everyone in my AP comp sci class was into gaming/nerdy hobbies/internet forums/etc.
- warfangle 10y ago
  Would you be surprised to find out that some parents decide on their high school students' electives for them?
  - FT_intern 10y ago
    If you mean "decide" as in force them to take it, then yes I would be surprised. In my experience, even the high achieving parents didn't force them to take specific classes. They put pressure on their kids (both genders equally, tiger mom does not care about gender roles) to take STEM AP classes in general instead of specific ones. Those students decide which STEM AP classes to take (except for Calc which parents stressed more). This was before knowledge of comp sci salaries have gone mainstream (before 2012), although it's still a relevant, anecdotal reflection on the backgrounds of current software engineers. My AP comp sci class was actually composed of non-high achieving people. AP comp sci was the only AP class many of the students took. The high achieving students didn't take AP comp sci for whatever reason. I think AP comp sci was actually considered lower status/prestige compared to the sciences Physics/Chem/Bio among the high achieving students.
    - warfangle 10y ago
      > The high achieving students didn't take AP comp sci for whatever reason. Maybe they didn't like to take classes filled with spiteful boys with chips on their shoulders? The 'whatever reason' is the important part.
      - FT_intern 10y ago
        So anyone who is interested in CS and is of the gender male is spiteful? That's sexist.
- rickyc091 10y ago
  As someone who teaches females in middle school HTML/CSS this is very accurate. While the vast majority of them enjoy the course, when I survey them if they would continue learning to code they respond no more often than not. Social stigma plays a large role at that age; this is also when they start thinking about boys and having self expression (clothes, music, books). It's _nerdy_ to be interested in computers. The know-it-all also becomes the outcast. That's the geek or loser. There's nothing more important than social status. It's really unfortunate.
reader5000 10y ago
AP is generally elective.
this2shallpaas 10y ago
Happy to look at the facts. That more men than women take coding summer camps, AP CS, have friends who are CS major, or get referrals to top companies sound believable. Presenting evidence in the form of cold hard believable statistics would be nice. I don't see any, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, because I believe those claims anyway (though the AP CS stats of recent times might be different - what parent doesn't want their child to program? And women tend to get better grades than men and perform better in school settings, so more women might be in AP CS classes in recent years). Again, men don't usually do the things you're claiming, either. You're claiming it with the language "women don't usually" because usually means more often than not - over half. But I'm open to changing my mind with stats. I'm happy to look at any you provide. Do you have stats on most men being sent to coding summer camp as teenagers? Most men having parents that encourage them to take AP computer science? Most men having best friends who are in CS? Most men who refer them for sweet internships at Microsoft and Google? Men usually don't do those things either. Just because more of the people that do those things are men than women, does not mean men, in general, do those things. That's my point.
- dsp1234 10y ago
  what parent doesn't want their child to program? In a weird sort of coincidence, I was recently talking to all of my couple friends at a large party. Of the 5 couples there, only 1 person had any desire to see their child(ren) go into programming. That particular child was a boy. So there's some more anecdata, but basically I've never heard a non-programmer parent say they want their child to go into programming. It's always been something along the lines of "I want my child to do the same thing I do" or "I want my child to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer"
- ethanbond 10y ago
  No one claimed "most men _______." The claim is that your average woman who is employed in this sector faced more adversity than your average man who is employed in this sector. Therefore, you'd expect the average woman employed to have more grit than the average man employed, since the women with less determination were filtered by various filters that don't exist for men. You could argue that it's not a filter against women but a magnet towards men, but that doesn't actually change the crux of the argument. There is clearly something that causes only 18% of AP CS exams being taken by women.
mpweiher 10y ago
> Who makes high school students' schedules? Parents and teachers, at least in the US. As you were blasting "anecdotes", please note that this isn't even anecdote, just blind assertion, so: "Citation needed". In my experience, high school students largely decide their own schedules according to their interests and abilities. Ahh, speaking of interests, and facts/data: https://scientificfemanomaly.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/femalestem.png https://scientificfemanomaly.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/fem... Interest by high school students in STEM fields. Girls 15% and falling, boys 45% and rising. More facts/data: http://mjperry.blogspot.de/2009/08/2009-math-sat-scores-are-in-gender-gap.html http://mjperry.blogspot.de/2009/08/2009-math-sat-scores-are-... Gender gap in SAT scores persists. Yes, let's look at the facts!
- zeppelin101 10y ago
  Fact: facts are sometimes sexist.
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    Or interests/passions are in fact highly dependent upon social factors, such as sexism. How many men do you know who are ballet dancers? Do you think that's because there's actually something present in the DNA of little girls that's not present in the DNA of little boys that makes them interested in ballet? Or could it be because if you're a little girl who dances it's cute/pretty and if you're a boy it's because you're gay/weak? This is the problem. If men hold a monopoly on powerful or lucrative roles in society, that monopoly will reign through the establishment of gender-dichotomous "interests and passions." Of course gender doesn't play any intrinsic role in whether you're into ballet. Nor does it play any intrinsic role in whether you're into computer science.
    - lliamander 10y ago
      Perhaps I don't know enough about ballet, but my understanding was that it is physically demanding in ways that favor female physiology over male physiology (e.g. requires more flexibility). Not to say that the cultural aspect isn't there, but rather that the cultural aspect may be influenced by biological differences.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
clifanatic 10y ago
> Ericson's analysis of the data shows that in 2013, 18 percent of the students who took the [AP computer science] exam were women. I did a master's degree in computer science at the University of Texas at Arlington about 10 years ago. When I was there, I was one of only two white people (male or female) in the entire program, and one of only about five that weren't Indian citizens on special student visas. So Indian citizens, while making up a minuscule portion of the US population, represented 95+% of the CS student population at an American university. So, which is it? Did UT Arlington commit a massive conspiracy to discriminate against white men? Or is it just that the people who were most interested and most inclined happened to be the ones that ended up there?

pyre 10y ago

> Is it hard to believe most men don't do those things, too? Some do, sure. I think this is more of a "of the people that get these things, most are men" than a "all men get these things."

calex 10y ago
YES, this is exactly what I meant. Thank you for not misunderstanding me.