4 ms·

I suppose I could think of a number of explanations for this observed effect. 1. Selection- because so much of IT is hostile to women, the only ones who become

I suppose I could think of a number of explanations for this observed effect. 1. Selection- because so much of IT is hostile to women, the only ones who become senior in the field are the very good ones. 2. Affirmative action- companies promoting women regardless of merit to seem progressive. 3. Some sort of inate or socialized advantage– the "women are better at people stuff" philosophy. If this is the case, then you'd expect more women to be in management. 4. Methodological flaws in the survey. I can't find any detailed discussion of their process, but phrases like "Of the senior developers who responded to the survey" seem to imply there could easily be significant selection bias. Feel free to take your pick based on what you already believe. Personally, I'm going to wait for more data before forming any solid conclusions based on this.

pc86 10y ago
> Feel free to take your pick based on what you already believe Probably a good TLDR for any HN discussion around gender.
FT_intern 10y ago
>Selection- because so much of IT is hostile to women that's an unproven premise
- fishtoaster 10y ago
  It's not a premise at all- I'm basing nothing on it. I'm not even claiming it's true. I'm just saying that it is one of several possible explanations for the available data.
- stale2002 10y ago
  Have you tried actually talking to any women in tech?
nostrebored 10y ago
You can take a look at [1] and the data there to see that 1 is the culprit, but only a piece of it. Women are pushed into less technical roles throughout their careers. Women with the same technical qualifications are significantly more likely to be managers than in a senior technical position. [1] http://gender.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Senior-Technical-Women-A-Profile-of-Success.pdf http://gender.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Senior-Techni...
- mpweiher 10y ago
  How is it that women are always "pushed", i.e. passive? How about: women are more likely to go into less technical roles in their careers, possibly because they prefer them?
  - nostrebored 10y ago
    Because your suggestion is similar to suggesting that black men in the south with PhDs just chose to be school teachers after the Civil Rights Act. Women themselves say that they feel pushed by their managers to go into management [1]. By winnowing everything down to personal choice and preference we remove any impetus to look into the root causes of disparity. EDIT: the same link is in my parent comment -- going back to your previous comment: "reading helps".
    - mpweiher 10y ago
      Gender studies isn't research, it's advocacy.
      - nostrebored 10y ago
        Did you even open the linked material? It's not "gender studies", it's a survey of highly experienced women in the field of computer science. Your comment is entirely tangential, it has no clash with any of the arguments that I've been making.
        mpweiher 10y ago
        I had a cursory look, stopped when the old tired tropes about percent of population vs. percent in tech were pulled out. Then I looked at the URL: "gender.stanford.edu/...". Then I looked at the root of that URL, http://gender.stanford.edu/ http://gender.stanford.edu/: "The Clayman Institute for Gender Research" Pray tell how this is not gender studies? From the site: "Founded in 1974, the Michelle R. Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford University creates knowledge and seeks to implement change to promote gender equality." Implement change. As I said: advocacy.
Certhas 10y ago
Regarding selection, a lot of these selection decisions are made before people have any experience with actual real world IT. A mother who thinks that programming isn't something for her girls in high school does damage that no amount of work at making things friendlier later on can repair. I think it's counterproductive to associate selection exclusively or even strongly with IT culture specifically. It lets wider culture off the hook.

pc86 10y ago

> Feel free to take your pick based on what you already believe Probably a good TLDR for any HN discussion around gender.

FT_intern 10y ago

>Selection- because so much of IT is hostile to women that's an unproven premise

fishtoaster 10y ago
It's not a premise at all- I'm basing nothing on it. I'm not even claiming it's true. I'm just saying that it is one of several possible explanations for the available data.
stale2002 10y ago
Have you tried actually talking to any women in tech?

nostrebored 10y ago

You can take a look at [1] and the data there to see that 1 is the culprit, but only a piece of it. Women are pushed into less technical roles throughout their careers. Women with the same technical qualifications are significantly more likely to be managers than in a senior technical position. [1] http://gender.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Senior-Technical-Women-A-Profile-of-Success.pdf http://gender.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Senior-Techni...

mpweiher 10y ago
How is it that women are always "pushed", i.e. passive? How about: women are more likely to go into less technical roles in their careers, possibly because they prefer them?
- nostrebored 10y ago
  Because your suggestion is similar to suggesting that black men in the south with PhDs just chose to be school teachers after the Civil Rights Act. Women themselves say that they feel pushed by their managers to go into management [1]. By winnowing everything down to personal choice and preference we remove any impetus to look into the root causes of disparity. EDIT: the same link is in my parent comment -- going back to your previous comment: "reading helps".
  - mpweiher 10y ago
    Gender studies isn't research, it's advocacy.
    - nostrebored 10y ago
      Did you even open the linked material? It's not "gender studies", it's a survey of highly experienced women in the field of computer science. Your comment is entirely tangential, it has no clash with any of the arguments that I've been making.
      - mpweiher 10y ago
        I had a cursory look, stopped when the old tired tropes about percent of population vs. percent in tech were pulled out. Then I looked at the URL: "gender.stanford.edu/...". Then I looked at the root of that URL, http://gender.stanford.edu/ http://gender.stanford.edu/: "The Clayman Institute for Gender Research" Pray tell how this is not gender studies? From the site: "Founded in 1974, the Michelle R. Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford University creates knowledge and seeks to implement change to promote gender equality." Implement change. As I said: advocacy.

Certhas 10y ago

Regarding selection, a lot of these selection decisions are made before people have any experience with actual real world IT. A mother who thinks that programming isn't something for her girls in high school does damage that no amount of work at making things friendlier later on can repair. I think it's counterproductive to associate selection exclusively or even strongly with IT culture specifically. It lets wider culture off the hook.