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This immediately made me think of Paul Graham's article "A Way to Detect Bias". He talks about how a hiring bias (against women in this case) results in those w

This immediately made me think of Paul Graham's article "A Way to Detect Bias". He talks about how a hiring bias (against women in this case) results in those who are hired being above average in skill. Just one hypothesis on this data, but that would help explain why those women who are hired then get promoted faster - because they are actually outperforming their peers. http://www.paulgraham.com/bias.html http://www.paulgraham.com/bias.html

smegel 10y ago
I know the reason, because I have seen it in action. Simply put, few women work in technical IT, but end up in management, business analysis, etc. And management has a faster and higher career path to elevated positions, while techs will top out at "senior engineer/developer" after about 5 years, and will be still stuck there after 20 unless they basically give up their passion and become a manager. Of course, there are far fewer management positions than tech roles, as the are far fewer women working in tech generally.
stale2002 10y ago
Yeah, women get driven out of tech in droves. In order to even survive, the average woman has to be at the very top of their game, or else theyd be gone because it isn't worth it to put up with all the BS that they have to.
- reitanqild 10y ago
  This differs a lot: at the last company I worked with some men were awful. That doesn't seem to be the standard though. I do see one issue though: women are far more likely to be sick (at least around here statistics are quite clear IIRC).
  - scook 10y ago
    Men are more likely to place pride over medical care. They'll take fewer days they really need as a result.
    - danbolt 10y ago
      Seriously. Some days I think I put way too much irrational pressure on myself just to be "good enough" at my job.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
      When toxic masculinity is literally toxic.
      - randyrand 10y ago
        Masculinity has been sexually selected for (by females) for millennia. Much of this selection wasn't even done by humans! Placing blame seems silly.
  - bryanlarsen 10y ago
    "women are far more likely to be sick" That's only the case for younger workers. For older workers, men are more likely to be sick, according to insurance statistics.
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      Interesting. Didn't know. I'll accept it for now but I guess I'll have to look that up before I feel confident to tell that as fact. Edit: why was parent downvoted?
- userium 10y ago
  >>"Yeah, women get driven out of tech in droves." True, over 40% of women leave SET (science, engineering, technology, math) mid-career (https://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/womenintech_facts_fullreport_05132016.pdf https://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/womenint... page 9). Interestingly, in engineering 39% leave mid-career, and in technology occupations 56%.
  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    >True, over 40% of women leave SET (science, engineering, technology, math) mid-career // How does that compare to other fields?
    - userium 10y ago
      Not sure about the data for other fields. But if you compare to men, in SET, only ~17% of men leave mid-career.
      - MollyR 10y ago
        The big elephant in the room is pregnancy and children. I've thought about having children, and leaving my career very intensely, but pushed it back after seeing the related costs.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
randyrand 10y ago
I remember when this was first posted to HN the top comment was about a serious flaw in this hypothesis. Need to find the comment thread again... Edit: Found it, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10483751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10483751 e.g. the other explanation could be that women applicants are just better than men, and that they aren't discriminated against.
- WildUtah 10y ago
  Thank you for re-posting that.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I wonder if the genders in the study were reversed, how many would claim the same hypothesis?
bcoates 10y ago
Beware that this is almost certainly subject to Campbell's law, and trying to actually rate organizational bias by hire-to-promotion rates will result in companies gaming the metric without fixing the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_law

smegel 10y ago

I know the reason, because I have seen it in action. Simply put, few women work in technical IT, but end up in management, business analysis, etc. And management has a faster and higher career path to elevated positions, while techs will top out at "senior engineer/developer" after about 5 years, and will be still stuck there after 20 unless they basically give up their passion and become a manager. Of course, there are far fewer management positions than tech roles, as the are far fewer women working in tech generally.

stale2002 10y ago

Yeah, women get driven out of tech in droves. In order to even survive, the average woman has to be at the very top of their game, or else theyd be gone because it isn't worth it to put up with all the BS that they have to.

reitanqild 10y ago
This differs a lot: at the last company I worked with some men were awful. That doesn't seem to be the standard though. I do see one issue though: women are far more likely to be sick (at least around here statistics are quite clear IIRC).
- scook 10y ago
  Men are more likely to place pride over medical care. They'll take fewer days they really need as a result.
  - danbolt 10y ago
    Seriously. Some days I think I put way too much irrational pressure on myself just to be "good enough" at my job.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    When toxic masculinity is literally toxic.
    - randyrand 10y ago
      Masculinity has been sexually selected for (by females) for millennia. Much of this selection wasn't even done by humans! Placing blame seems silly.
- bryanlarsen 10y ago
  "women are far more likely to be sick" That's only the case for younger workers. For older workers, men are more likely to be sick, according to insurance statistics.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    Interesting. Didn't know. I'll accept it for now but I guess I'll have to look that up before I feel confident to tell that as fact. Edit: why was parent downvoted?
userium 10y ago
>>"Yeah, women get driven out of tech in droves." True, over 40% of women leave SET (science, engineering, technology, math) mid-career (https://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/womenintech_facts_fullreport_05132016.pdf https://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/womenint... page 9). Interestingly, in engineering 39% leave mid-career, and in technology occupations 56%.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  >True, over 40% of women leave SET (science, engineering, technology, math) mid-career // How does that compare to other fields?
  - userium 10y ago
    Not sure about the data for other fields. But if you compare to men, in SET, only ~17% of men leave mid-career.
    - MollyR 10y ago
      The big elephant in the room is pregnancy and children. I've thought about having children, and leaving my career very intensely, but pushed it back after seeing the related costs.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

randyrand 10y ago

I remember when this was first posted to HN the top comment was about a serious flaw in this hypothesis. Need to find the comment thread again... Edit: Found it, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10483751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10483751 e.g. the other explanation could be that women applicants are just better than men, and that they aren't discriminated against.

WildUtah 10y ago
Thank you for re-posting that.
cmdrfred 10y ago
I wonder if the genders in the study were reversed, how many would claim the same hypothesis?

bcoates 10y ago

Beware that this is almost certainly subject to Campbell's law, and trying to actually rate organizational bias by hire-to-promotion rates will result in companies gaming the metric without fixing the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_law