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The Killer Cats Are Winning
- c3833174 10y ago"That beloved pets should not be given the opportunity to kill wildlife for sport is the easy part of this debate." Why not start by extending that to humans as well?
- kazagistar 10y agoHumans can be somewhat monitored and limited in their killing through licenses.
- snerbles 10y agoIn many developed countries, humans are the apex predator. Hunting is strictly regulated to positively impact wildlife and fund conservation efforts.
- jandrese 10y agoHumans are the apex predator for the entire globe. Or at least one of the very small number of apex predators. There are a few others that are preyed on by nothing else, including Hippos. As far as I know nobody hunts Hippos for their meat or other products. They're just too damn scary. Some other predators have reciprocal predator/prey relationships with other predators. Like lions and hyenas that will eat each other if given the chance but generally prefer less dangerous meals.
- oldmanjay 10y agoAnyone who believes human hunting is purely evil has never lived in an area overrun by deer
- matthewowen 10y agoAnyone who believes feline hunting is purely evil has never lived in a house overrun by mice.
- gozur88 10y agoThere's no reason to.
- int_19h 10y agoIn many cases, humans are hunting species which don't have any effective natural predators, either because said species were introduced into the environment by humans (as is the case with feral pigs), or because humans have exterminated the existing predators (as is the case with wolves, who kept deer populations in check). For example, in Texas, the problem with feral pigs is so severe that two thirds of the entire population needs to be culled each year in order to maintain it at a stable level. The things that cats hunt, though, generally do have other natural predators to keep them in check, and getting cats into that game causes populations to plummet.
- caub 10y agoThat's why I hate the current idiocracy: overconsumption, cigarettes, that, and many other things.. that denaturate the world more than it should
- jmnicolas 10y ago"but cats, their human partisans will proudly point out, cannot be tamed or herded" Just check CATMANTOO channel on Youtube, you will be amazed at what he makes his cats do. And apparently it's that hard to train a cat, he says you can do the same with yours.
- dpeck 10y agoFully anecdotal, but got into a conversation with an animal trainer once after a demonstration that he put on. After mentioning how impressive the training of the cats in particular he said he actually preferred working with them and got more accomplished in his training sessions with them. Said they were much more "business-like" and weren't distracted by everything like dogs are.
- seibelj 10y agoIt's amazing how a cat will learn something in 5 seconds if they are truly motivated. They will learn a squirt gun so fast they will spook if you make one with your fingers. My cats learned what "treat" meant in a day and run to the kitchen if we say the word to them.
- cowpewter 10y agoYeah, the hard part is just that cats have different motivations than dogs. Dogs will do something just because they know you want them to do it and you are above them in the pack. They are also more likely to be food motivated. One of my cats is very food motivated. She will always come running for the word "treat". One of them is extremely not food motivated. He gets excited when I say treat because the other cats get excited and he loves excitement. But when the treats are dispensed, he might eat one, maybe. The first cat will usually finish his. He's motivated by attention. He will come when called by his name, just because he knows you will pick him up and snuggle him. Of course, this also means that if he's bored, he quite quickly learns what you don't want him to touch or jump on, and will do it just so you go after him for it.
- pmoriarty 10y ago
- HarryHirsch 10y agoYou'd ask yourself just how diverse the wildlife in an urban environment is, where the bulk of domestic cats live. Right now I'm not convinced about the ecological impact.
- lowleveldrone 10y agoThere are over 250 species of bird present for at least part of the year in the city where I live, which has a population of 880000.
- jp_sc 10y agoRats with wings
- mikestew 10y agoHe said "birds" not "bats". If you're going to be snarky, at least get the classification right.
- TheDrizzle43 10y agoHe's talking about pigeons.
- vkou 10y agoHe may have been referring to pigeons. Rats with wings is an apt metaphor.
- yareally 10y agoPigeons only account for one of those 200+ species the OP mentioned though (unless they live in one of those regions with the native Band-Tailed Pigeons). That particular kind of pigeon that everyone loathes (European Rock Pigeons) aren't even native to the New World and are an evasive species. Ironically, they're in the decline in their natural habitat while thriving in North/South America. The Americas has a few native pigeons, but none are as well known or wide spread as the Rock Pigeon. Quite a few pigeon species are also far from the ugly "rats with wing" stereotype[1], but they don't live in Europe or North America. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_crowned_pigeon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_crowned_pigeon
- rwmj 10y agoIt's worth reading the author's actual peer reviewed paper: http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380
- MiguelVieira 10y agoSummary: > We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals.
- rwmj 10y agoAlso note that this is in the US. Other parts of the world have had wild cat populations for millions of years.
- teaearlgraycold 10y agoNot domesticated cats. The US has a few native cats, and I assume has had them for quite a while.
- keithly 10y agoI wonder to what extent domestic casts have replaced mustelids (weasels, badgers, etc.) and similar small predators in North America. If there were fewer cats, would there be more mustelids? Would they then have a similar effect on the bird and rodent populations?
- openasocket 10y agoI imagine they make a poor replacement for mustelids. Mustelids tend to prefer small mammals and birds, but they usually vary their diet with insects, fruits, some plants, carrion (I think cats generally don't go in for scavenging, not sure) etc. They also have different hunting approaches: weasels will go into burrows or dig into vole dens. Cats wouldn't be able to fit, and I've never seen a cat actually dig to get at prey. So the small mammal and bird population is adapted to predators with different tactics. Plus cats have a habit of hunting even when not hungry, which amplifies their effect on the ecosystem.
- shagie 10y agoAnd a counterpoint http://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473002208/facing-a-growing-rat-problem-a-neighborhood-sets-off-the-cat-patrol http://www.npr.org/2016/04/04/473002208/facing-a-growing-rat... That example is why cats were domesticated in the first place. Not having a healthy predator prey relationship in areas leads to public health issues.
- lowleveldrone 10y agoDogs can be trained (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Terrier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Terrier) to kill rats in a much more controlled fashion than having free range cats wandering around.
- strictnein 10y agoGrew up with cats that would kill mice, but weren't very good at it. Got a miniature pinscher, which were also bred to kill rodents, and it was amazing how lethal they were around mice. Grab, bite, dead.
- mikestew 10y agoI'll put a terrier up against a cat any day. As you describe: grab, bite, dead, move on to the next one. None of this "let's play with it for a bit" crap from cats, there's work to be done. Mole problem? Borrow a dachshund for a week, no more moles. For efficient, methodical obliteration of a local pest population, hard to beat a canine for Terminator-like determination and efficiency. Cats just dick around too much.
- BFatts 10y agoI'll put my cats up against your terrier any day. Bite, whimper, dead. That would be your terrier. My cats kill moles and mice. They do a damn good job of it. Only thing dogs seem capable of killing: rabbits and themselves.
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- appwiz 10y agoThe Oatmeal has also exposed these cute murderous creatures: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill The numbers seem to line up.
- triplesec 10y agoAlso, your cat is trying to kill you with parasites http://www.rectofossal.com/cat-trying-kill/ http://www.rectofossal.com/cat-trying-kill/
- tychuz 10y agoAww, I love my maine coon, isn't he just adorable trying to kill me?
- thrownblown 10y agothe toxoplasmosis struggle could not be more real.
- cowpewter 10y agoIf you have an indoor cat it's not. Toxo is only shed by cats for a few weeks after exposure, and the toxo lifecycle can't be completed indoors so your cat will not be reinfected. Unless you have a mouse infestation, in which case I'd be more worried about hantavirus than toxo. Just keep your cats inside, everyone! It's better for the environment, it's better for birds, it's better for the cat, it's better for you.
- triplesec 10y agoIndoors is categorically not better for the cats. They're nocturnal predators. Let them hunt as is their desire and way of living. It's like keeping birds in cages and not letting them fly. Or chickens in battery farms. There are so many unhappy cats imprisoned for the benefit of their fluffy -loving captors. If you have cats, you must let them be cats. So here's the rub: we really have to stop keeping so many cats
- jhbadger 10y agoThat's exactly like saying humans ought to only live in the savannah of Africa as hunters and gatherers. Just because that's where humans evolved doesn't mean that that is the only way they are "supposed" to live, nor is where they are "happiest". For starters, humans in civilization and indoor cats live a heck of a lot longer and don't have to worry about getting eaten by predators.
- honkhonkpants 10y agoRecently a coyote killed an outdoor pet cat in Berkeley and the citizens were outraged. The predator must be hunted down and shot as soon as possible! This amused me of course. Pets can be predators but actual predators are "invasive" and must be shot.
- linkregister 10y ago> and the citizens were outraged 100% of Berkeley residents were so flabbergasted we spilled fair trade granola and almond milk all over our copy of the Sunday New York Times whilst listening to NPR in our REI/Patagonia outdoorwear. Or maybe some citizens were outraged. This Berkeley liberal monolith stereotype gets a bit old. The chicken population in Berkeley is in the hundreds; Berkeley residents do small-scale farming, to include slaughtering their animals. Plenty of Berkeley residents have more perspective than the knee-jerk reaction you describe.
- honkhonkpants 10y agoThe beauty of stereotypes is that they are true.
- lnanek2 10y ago> This is a ridiculous point to waffle on: pet cats should no more be allowed to roam around at will than should pet dogs, horses, pythons, or pot-bellied pigs. Actually, my Dad grew up on a mountain where, every day after school, he would come home and gather up the pig and cows that had been let free to eat for the day. So there's certainly use cases for letting a pig roam free and gather some forage. By the time I was growing up we had chickens, which had to be brought in at night to prevent predators from eating them, but otherwise could roam the yard to eat worms and the like. Also a horse that kept the grass in the yard short without us having to mow it. There were goats, but they weren't allowed free mostly because they went and ate mountain laurel and poisoned themselves. It's kind of strange to take a working animal like a cat, bred for pest control, and stick in a little indoor room and never let them out. Did farmers originally lock up their barn cats in the barns? I don't think so. It's actually a problem when they accidentally get locked up in a shed or a car or something, because they aren't out doing their jobs. Seems nuts to me that the author belittles letting them outside.
- mikestew 10y agoActually, my Dad grew up on a mountain where, every day after school, he would come home and gather up the pig and cows that had been let free to eat for the day. The statement you quoted said cats "should be no more allowed to roam than <other domesticated livestock>". Your father's livestock were allowed to roam. Ergo, maybe the author wasn't talking about the farm your father grew up on. Something something false equivalencies or something. Did farmers originally lock up their barn cats in the barns? Did Jesus have a pet cat? No. Cats are the devil. Or maybe the author was not prescribing a one-size-fits-all solution. We have a litany of examples of "Europeans brings domestic cats to newly-explored island, ecological devastation ensues", I don't think we need to digress with stories unrelated to the environments to which the author refers (which I gather to be urban and suburban environments).
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- khalilravanna 10y ago
- markhahn 10y agoIt's a special kind of creepy when people decide that cats are a problem worthy of public attention. Yeah, they can cause real problems when introduced into closed ecosystems which lack a historical small-predator.
- ionwake 10y agohttp://notornis.osnz.org.nz/system/files/Notornis_51_4_193.pdf http://notornis.osnz.org.nz/system/files/Notornis_51_4_193.p...
- BFatts 10y agoSo silly... we worry about cats, but humans BY FAR are worse for the planet than cats. Maybe we should be talking about the mass execution of humans who pose no positive benefit for the population as a whole? We, as the dominant species, are always looking for ways to save the planet - but for the most part it is a blame game. Humans are what helped cats hit all corners of the world. Cats aren't responsible, so why target them?
- ionwake 10y agoI am pretty sure the simplest and most humane solution is... to put a small bell on your cat. I am suprised no one else has said this.
- icebraining 10y agoWhat about un-owned cats? Those are what they say kill the most.
- ionwake 10y agoI believe maybe it would fall into the jurisdiction of local pet enforcement / RSPCA group to put bells on the cats. But yeah, that would be no easy task. Trying to herd cats comes to mind :)
- CocaKoala 10y agoWouldn't work. Every decent cat collar is designed to come off with only a minimal amount of tugging[1], so even if you managed to get a collar on every feral cat in the city, they'd pretty quickly manage to get the collars off. [1]: This is behavior that you absolutely want to have in a collar that's designed to go around the neck of an animal who's roaming unsupervised. Consider the (likely) scenario where the collar gets caught on something, and the animal panics. If the collar comes undone easily, the cat escapes from being trapped and saunters off, and you need to buy a new collar when you can't find the old one. If the collar is shut in such a way that the cat can't escape, the cat is likely to injure itself.
- kwhitefoot 10y agoDoesn't work. My cat who died a couple of years ago at the age of 16 had a bell on his collar all his life. I couldn't pick that bell up without it tinkling but Radar could walk from one end of the house to the other, including the stairs, without a sound. Also when hunting he did most of it by waiting for his prey to get close enough so that any noise from the bell was simply the last sound they heard. For a while he used to sit on the roof and catch bats
- 10y ago
- kafkaesq 10y ago“Euthanasia needs to be part of a successful long-term solution.” But linguistic abuse does not. Make whatever recommendations about species culling you want -- but there's no way that targeted killing can be compared to "euthanasia."
- vacri 10y agoMan, if you think that cats kill a lot of things, you should see the environmental devastation that humans are capable of!
- Paul-ish 10y agoNear where my parents live, coyotes have returned. They have been killing a lot of outdoor cats. I wonder if a reintroduction of coyotes to some areas would control cat populations naturally.
- jokoon 10y agoI'm curious about toxoplasmosis. Is it a benign illness? I often am in contact with my two house cats.
- Fomite 10y agoIt's not benign, though predominately its a problem in those with compromised immune systems in the U.S. (things are different in S. America).
- Mendenhall 10y agoI am surprised no one wants to tax cat owners and have a "cat offset tax". Taxes seem to be all the rage in solutions to problems these days.
- lucker 10y agoWell, it's evolution. The locals can't compete. Given enough time, the local ecosystems will adapt. Compared to the enormous environmental impact of humans, it's ridiculous to blame cats. You really want to conserve local species? Get rid of the humans.
- c10204 10y agoTylenol poisoning is a terrible way to die and advocating it's use is reckless. Also poisons have a bad tendency to harm more than just your intended target. The article also doesn't talk about the invasive bird species humans have introduced all over the place.