5 ms·

Yup. My wife is a neurosurgery resident. While she's on her research year right now, which is comparatively relaxed[1], prior to this she worked 5 years of 80+

Yup. My wife is a neurosurgery resident. While she's on her research year right now, which is comparatively relaxed[1], prior to this she worked 5 years of 80+ hour weeks, including three stretches of 20+ consecutive days after another resident in her program left. Looking back on medical school, she can't believe how ridiculously easy it was and how much free time she had. [1] where "comparatively relaxed" still means "she works harder than anyone I know in tech".

mixmastamyk 10y ago
To what end? It's well known the body has < 10 hours of high-level productivity in it per day. Unless they get paid by the hour, I see no reason to continue to participate in such a system. Still, it should not be allowed when lives are at stake.
- module0000 10y ago
  Well, look at it from the patients point of view... if there isn't a doctor to available, because they took some time off after a 20+ day stint...where does that leave you(the patient)? It's a tough job, but they signed up for it, and the pay is very good by comparison to other jobs that have similarly long hours. For some contrast though, before everyone cries out "save the med students, they have it harder than any one should endure"... remember there are other jobs with far greater risks, hours, and far less pay. Ever been deployed in a military unit during wartime? I've wished there was a window to jump out of several times, or that a pager beeping was the scariest thing to fear while trying to sleep - and that was in recent engagements, it was far worse for the generation before us during wartime - doctors not so much.
  - stephencanon 10y ago
    > the pay is very good by comparison to other jobs that have similarly long hours. Once you're an attending, yes. My wife, however, is still a resident. She's doing this for $50k/year.
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    Doctors could work shifts just like everyone else at the hospital. Just because a worse job might exist is not a justification to continue---logic and all that.
- stephencanon 10y ago
  There's no other path to becoming a doctor in the US. You can choose to go into a specialty with more relaxed hours, but you need to go through residency no matter what. If you want to be a doctor, you put up with it, like the generations before you. A sufficient number of residents organizing could do something about it, but (a) no one has time to organize when they're working 90 hour weeks and (b) there's a significant Stockholm syndrome effect in play. It's worth noting that there have been several studies over the years investigating whether reduced hours produce better outcomes; they don't seem to. Shorter hours means more shift changes and patient handoffs, which is the source of more errors than tired residents. Also, keep in made that getting the same experience in a specialized field like neurosurgery with fewer hours per week would require extending the training program even further. It's already seven years beyond medical school, often with a one year fellowship after residency. Extending it another few years isn't really a viable option unless we significantly increase the autonomy and salary that residents receive.
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    You can only learn so much per day. It sounds like you are making excuses to ignore basic human rights (recognized post-industrial revolution) such as ~40 hour weeks in favor of indentured servitude. Appeals to "outcomes" do not supersede workers rights. Sorry, I don't buy it.
    - kahrkunne 10y ago
      Human lives supersede workers rights. If you don't like it don't go to medical school.
      - dagw 10y ago
        That's a bullshit argument. If hospitals really cared about human lives, they would keep a staff level that ensured that patients would be seen by doctors that where rested and focused. People die because doctors and nurses who've been on their feet for the past 20 hours are unfocused make stupid mistakes and hospitals simply don't care because dealing with the occasional accidental death is cheaper than hiring more doctors, and we as a society let them get away with it.

mixmastamyk 10y ago

To what end? It's well known the body has < 10 hours of high-level productivity in it per day. Unless they get paid by the hour, I see no reason to continue to participate in such a system. Still, it should not be allowed when lives are at stake.

module0000 10y ago
Well, look at it from the patients point of view... if there isn't a doctor to available, because they took some time off after a 20+ day stint...where does that leave you(the patient)? It's a tough job, but they signed up for it, and the pay is very good by comparison to other jobs that have similarly long hours. For some contrast though, before everyone cries out "save the med students, they have it harder than any one should endure"... remember there are other jobs with far greater risks, hours, and far less pay. Ever been deployed in a military unit during wartime? I've wished there was a window to jump out of several times, or that a pager beeping was the scariest thing to fear while trying to sleep - and that was in recent engagements, it was far worse for the generation before us during wartime - doctors not so much.
- stephencanon 10y ago
  > the pay is very good by comparison to other jobs that have similarly long hours. Once you're an attending, yes. My wife, however, is still a resident. She's doing this for $50k/year.
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  Doctors could work shifts just like everyone else at the hospital. Just because a worse job might exist is not a justification to continue---logic and all that.
stephencanon 10y ago
There's no other path to becoming a doctor in the US. You can choose to go into a specialty with more relaxed hours, but you need to go through residency no matter what. If you want to be a doctor, you put up with it, like the generations before you. A sufficient number of residents organizing could do something about it, but (a) no one has time to organize when they're working 90 hour weeks and (b) there's a significant Stockholm syndrome effect in play. It's worth noting that there have been several studies over the years investigating whether reduced hours produce better outcomes; they don't seem to. Shorter hours means more shift changes and patient handoffs, which is the source of more errors than tired residents. Also, keep in made that getting the same experience in a specialized field like neurosurgery with fewer hours per week would require extending the training program even further. It's already seven years beyond medical school, often with a one year fellowship after residency. Extending it another few years isn't really a viable option unless we significantly increase the autonomy and salary that residents receive.
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  You can only learn so much per day. It sounds like you are making excuses to ignore basic human rights (recognized post-industrial revolution) such as ~40 hour weeks in favor of indentured servitude. Appeals to "outcomes" do not supersede workers rights. Sorry, I don't buy it.
  - kahrkunne 10y ago
    Human lives supersede workers rights. If you don't like it don't go to medical school.
    - dagw 10y ago
      That's a bullshit argument. If hospitals really cared about human lives, they would keep a staff level that ensured that patients would be seen by doctors that where rested and focused. People die because doctors and nurses who've been on their feet for the past 20 hours are unfocused make stupid mistakes and hospitals simply don't care because dealing with the occasional accidental death is cheaper than hiring more doctors, and we as a society let them get away with it.