12 ms·

Blitzted: The Third Reich as a Society on Drugs

114 points by Hooke 10y ago

Frompo 10y ago
Amazing text!
NicoJuicy 10y ago
Down for me: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2016/10/10/blitzed-the-third-reich-as-a-society-on-drugs/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
glhaynes 10y ago
There was a 40 minute interview with the author on a recent episode of Dan Snow's History Hit podcast. http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/blitzed-drugs-in-nazi-germany-norman-ohler/ http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/blitzed-drugs-in-nazi-germa...
- serg_chernata 10y ago
  Thank you, I found this article fascinating and was looking for more!
- westiseast 10y ago
  I listened to that as well. It was interesting to hear Snow's scepticism about it, and also his respect for the guys archival research (which would probably answer a lot of the scepticism on this thread too).
bbctol 10y ago
I try to be skeptical about these sorts of explanations, but that might just be to stave off paranoia. What will be the amphetamines/leaded glass/DDT of today? Will future generations look back and say "of course the early 21st century was insane, they were all overdosing on sugar and caffeine!"
- zokier 10y ago
  I'd point out that amphetamines and other drugs are still being used by military forces around the world.
  - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
    The US military, at least, has gotten smarter about it. They still need "go pills", but they've switched from the obviously problematic amphetamines to a more narrowly focused anti-narcoleptic - modafinil.
    - anexprogrammer 10y ago
      Though during Afghanistan no one knew how modafinil worked, or possible long term effects. British military were buying thousands of them at that period too.
      - ggreer 10y ago
        Regarding possible long-term effects: Modafinil was invented in the late 1970's. Some people in Europe have been taking it for over 30 years. People in the US have been taking it since 1998. No study of modafinil has found it to be neurotoxic. A few studies have found slight neuro-protective effects. In a review of modafinil studies[1], the authors really had to stretch to find disadvantages and dangers. In short: If this drug is bad for you, it's only slightly bad. And it's far safer than the drug it substitutes for: amphetamines. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2654794/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2654794/
        contingencies 10y ago
        Even in very occasional, very small half-doses I found it definitely creates overly intense focus (can be unpleasant/unsuitable depending upon your environment) and withdrawl issues (scatterbrained). I also have a friend who began taking it 5-6 days a week for work, who had issues weening himself. It's certainly a very interesting substance, but not something I would recommend as solely positive. I disagree that it replaces amphetamines, as its primary focus is to produce mental focus rather than physical energy, unlike amphetamines which produce the latter. I would argue instead that Modafinil is more like a long-term (10+ hour) auto-dispensing teapot, albeit perhaps slightly spiked with additional herbal stimulants, in a pill form.
serg_chernata 10y ago
They mention slaughterhouses in Ukraine. Does anyone know why Ukraine of all places?
- DasIch 10y ago
  There probably wasn't a good reason for doing it there specifically as much as there was a good reason for not doing it in Germany.
- tomjen3 10y ago
  Ukraine was the breadbasket of the Soviet union, so presumably they also had many slaughter houses but at the same time they probably didn't have valid pre-existing agreements with distributors, so when the Nazi army took them, they were up for grabs and holding Hitler in the palm of his hand he could get them.
  - serg_chernata 10y ago
    Makes sense, thank you.
- whybroke 10y ago
  It was part of a Nazi plan called "Lebensraum" where people of the wrong ethnic group would be killed, those of slightly wrong groups would be enslaved and those of the correct group would be indoctrinated into Nazi values. All vaguely steaming from looking at British, French and Spanish colonies were large numbers of their ethnic groups had taken hold. Also in the '30s Italy invaded Ethiopia and Japan invaded Manchuria to create belated empires though with less overtly genocidal intentions. (However dry the above description, I personally do not want to suggest that the Nazi project is equivalent to those other nation's actions) [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ukraine [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum
  - protomyth 10y ago
    "Japan invaded Manchuria to create belated empires though with less overtly genocidal intentions." Given the number of people the Japanese killed at Nanking[1] alone, I don't think this is a true statement. This site[2] (at and edu) puts it around 6 million total. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre 2) https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM
B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
> It fit with a society built on hyper-motivation. Rings a bell.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Interesting to compare the discussion of a couple of weeks ago when the Guardian reviewed the same book: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12575020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12575020
ChemicalWarfare 10y ago
I've never seen any "hard evidence" on this - but some sources I've read also mention steroid usage by the German troops (synthetic testosterone was invented by the Germans in 1935).
- tomcam 10y ago
  Testosterone is mentioned in the article, though unclear if it was synthetic. It's also mentioned that the trippy Dr. Morelo, who went on to be Doctor to the Stars in the U.S., needed a constant supply of animal glands.
Theodores 10y ago
This was an excellent review of a book that has been given standard reviews elsewhere. I may be buying this book. The content reminds me of the documentary film 'Spin': * Using the 1992 presidential election as his springboard, Springer captures the behind-the-scenes maneuverings of politicians and newscasters in the early 1990s. Pat Robertson banters about "homos," Al Gore learns how to avoid abortion questions, George H. W. Bush talks to Larry King about Halcion—all presuming they are off camera. Composed of 100% unauthorized satellite footage, Spin is a surreal expose of media-constructed reality.* Yep, H W Bush was on Halcion, not good!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(1995_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(1995_film) A highly recommended film given the election season and on youtube too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlJkgQZb0VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlJkgQZb0VU
- wu-ikkyu 10y ago
  Very poignant ending. "See, everyone watches"
- jevinskie 10y ago
  "Spin" is surreal. Thank you very much for the pointer! Are satellite uplinks scrambled/encrypted these days? If they uplink via something like MPEG-TS, I don't imagine it would be too hard.
- gozur88 10y ago
  >Yep, H W Bush was on Halcion, not good!!! Benzodiazepines are the very least of the drugs US presidents have taken over the years, and they're fine if you don't abuse them.
skylan_q 10y ago
I'm willing to believe anything bad about the Nazis. Upvoted!
eth0up 10y ago
Remotely apropos, and slightly interesting: https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/30/philippine-president-im-like-hitler-but-i-want-to-kill-millions-of-drug-users-duterte/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/30/philippine-president-im...
anabis 10y ago
Probably a detail previously considered too minor for foreign consumption. Imperial Japan also made use of meths, called "ヒロポン" at the time.
- schoen 10y ago
  The linked article says that German scientists "pinched" methamphetamine from Japan; does that mean it was originally invented there? Wikipedia says it was "first synthesized in 1887 in Germany" by a Romanian scientist and then "in 1893 by Japanese chemist Nagai Nagayoshi". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine#History.2C_society.2C_and_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine#History.2C_soc... Maybe the Germans learned the synthesis that they ended up using from Japanese research, despite being familiar with the substance before?
  - gozur88 10y ago
    It says the Germans synthesized amphetamine, while Nagayoshi synthesized methamphetamine. There's a separate wiki page for "history and culture of substituted amphetamines" that gives a bit more detail than the main article, though not on this particular point.
    - schoen 10y ago
      Oh, thanks! I missed that.
h4nkoslo 10y ago
Meanwhile in the US, depending on which set of numbers you believe, something like 13-20% of the US population (including perhaps as many as 25% of women) are dosing on antidepressants. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2467552#joi150128r27 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/246755... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/women-and-prescription-drug-use_n_1098023.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/women-and-prescript...
- hackaflocka 10y ago
  Surprised it's that low. I read somewhere that 50% of women are on anti depressants.
Synaesthesia 10y ago
Funny that it doesn't mention the Allied use of amphetamine, which was far greater, and the subsequent prescription blitz in the US, where 1 in 10 people were taking amphetamines by the 1960's. Now there was a society on drugs. "While consumption levels among each of the particular services remains elusive, I have been able crudely to calculate the (previously undisclosed) overall U.S. mil- itary consumption of amphetamine from the $877,000 worth of Benzedrine purchased from SKF by the government in the course of the war years. Applying the most conservative assumptions in the calculations, for instance, that the government paid regular bulk wholesale price for 10 mg pills, yields an estimate that the American military must have bought at least 250 million Benzedrine Sulfate tablets. The true figure is most likely double that number, around 500 million tab- lets in the course of the war, allowing for procurement pricing and the fact that the military mostly used 5 mg tablets rather than the stan- dard 10 mg prescription tablets (and it could easily be higher still if other conservative assumptions are relaxed).63 This estimate of 250–500 million tablets in total corresponds very roughly to a consumption rate of 10–20 government-supplied amphetamine tablets per year per American serving in combat theaters for the years 1942–45. Although well below the scandalous 30–40 tablets per serviceman per year con- sumption rate in the Vietnam conflict, it is still several (two to four) times the comparable British figure of about 5 tablets per serviceman per year, and roughly equivalent to the German methamphetamine consumption rate at its peak, the Blitz year of 1940." Quoted from "On Speed, the many lives of Amphetamine" by Nicholas Rasmussen.
- yorksranter 10y ago
  That would be because the book I reviewed is about Nazi Germany.

114 points by Hooke 10y ago

Amazing text!

Down for me: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2016/10/10/blitzed-the-third-reich-as-a-society-on-drugs/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

glhaynes 10y ago

There was a 40 minute interview with the author on a recent episode of Dan Snow's History Hit podcast. http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/blitzed-drugs-in-nazi-germany-norman-ohler/ http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/blitzed-drugs-in-nazi-germa...

serg_chernata 10y ago
Thank you, I found this article fascinating and was looking for more!
westiseast 10y ago
I listened to that as well. It was interesting to hear Snow's scepticism about it, and also his respect for the guys archival research (which would probably answer a lot of the scepticism on this thread too).

bbctol 10y ago

I try to be skeptical about these sorts of explanations, but that might just be to stave off paranoia. What will be the amphetamines/leaded glass/DDT of today? Will future generations look back and say "of course the early 21st century was insane, they were all overdosing on sugar and caffeine!"

zokier 10y ago
I'd point out that amphetamines and other drugs are still being used by military forces around the world.
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  The US military, at least, has gotten smarter about it. They still need "go pills", but they've switched from the obviously problematic amphetamines to a more narrowly focused anti-narcoleptic - modafinil.
  - anexprogrammer 10y ago
    Though during Afghanistan no one knew how modafinil worked, or possible long term effects. British military were buying thousands of them at that period too.
    - ggreer 10y ago
      Regarding possible long-term effects: Modafinil was invented in the late 1970's. Some people in Europe have been taking it for over 30 years. People in the US have been taking it since 1998. No study of modafinil has found it to be neurotoxic. A few studies have found slight neuro-protective effects. In a review of modafinil studies[1], the authors really had to stretch to find disadvantages and dangers. In short: If this drug is bad for you, it's only slightly bad. And it's far safer than the drug it substitutes for: amphetamines. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2654794/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2654794/
      - contingencies 10y ago
        Even in very occasional, very small half-doses I found it definitely creates overly intense focus (can be unpleasant/unsuitable depending upon your environment) and withdrawl issues (scatterbrained). I also have a friend who began taking it 5-6 days a week for work, who had issues weening himself. It's certainly a very interesting substance, but not something I would recommend as solely positive. I disagree that it replaces amphetamines, as its primary focus is to produce mental focus rather than physical energy, unlike amphetamines which produce the latter. I would argue instead that Modafinil is more like a long-term (10+ hour) auto-dispensing teapot, albeit perhaps slightly spiked with additional herbal stimulants, in a pill form.

serg_chernata 10y ago

They mention slaughterhouses in Ukraine. Does anyone know why Ukraine of all places?

DasIch 10y ago
There probably wasn't a good reason for doing it there specifically as much as there was a good reason for not doing it in Germany.
tomjen3 10y ago
Ukraine was the breadbasket of the Soviet union, so presumably they also had many slaughter houses but at the same time they probably didn't have valid pre-existing agreements with distributors, so when the Nazi army took them, they were up for grabs and holding Hitler in the palm of his hand he could get them.
- serg_chernata 10y ago
  Makes sense, thank you.
whybroke 10y ago
It was part of a Nazi plan called "Lebensraum" where people of the wrong ethnic group would be killed, those of slightly wrong groups would be enslaved and those of the correct group would be indoctrinated into Nazi values. All vaguely steaming from looking at British, French and Spanish colonies were large numbers of their ethnic groups had taken hold. Also in the '30s Italy invaded Ethiopia and Japan invaded Manchuria to create belated empires though with less overtly genocidal intentions. (However dry the above description, I personally do not want to suggest that the Nazi project is equivalent to those other nation's actions) [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ukraine [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum
- protomyth 10y ago
  "Japan invaded Manchuria to create belated empires though with less overtly genocidal intentions." Given the number of people the Japanese killed at Nanking[1] alone, I don't think this is a true statement. This site[2] (at and edu) puts it around 6 million total. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre 2) https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago

> It fit with a society built on hyper-motivation. Rings a bell.

anexprogrammer 10y ago

Interesting to compare the discussion of a couple of weeks ago when the Guardian reviewed the same book: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12575020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12575020

ChemicalWarfare 10y ago

I've never seen any "hard evidence" on this - but some sources I've read also mention steroid usage by the German troops (synthetic testosterone was invented by the Germans in 1935).

tomcam 10y ago
Testosterone is mentioned in the article, though unclear if it was synthetic. It's also mentioned that the trippy Dr. Morelo, who went on to be Doctor to the Stars in the U.S., needed a constant supply of animal glands.

Theodores 10y ago

This was an excellent review of a book that has been given standard reviews elsewhere. I may be buying this book. The content reminds me of the documentary film 'Spin': * Using the 1992 presidential election as his springboard, Springer captures the behind-the-scenes maneuverings of politicians and newscasters in the early 1990s. Pat Robertson banters about "homos," Al Gore learns how to avoid abortion questions, George H. W. Bush talks to Larry King about Halcion—all presuming they are off camera. Composed of 100% unauthorized satellite footage, Spin is a surreal expose of media-constructed reality.* Yep, H W Bush was on Halcion, not good!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(1995_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(1995_film) A highly recommended film given the election season and on youtube too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlJkgQZb0VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlJkgQZb0VU

wu-ikkyu 10y ago
Very poignant ending. "See, everyone watches"
jevinskie 10y ago
"Spin" is surreal. Thank you very much for the pointer! Are satellite uplinks scrambled/encrypted these days? If they uplink via something like MPEG-TS, I don't imagine it would be too hard.
gozur88 10y ago
>Yep, H W Bush was on Halcion, not good!!! Benzodiazepines are the very least of the drugs US presidents have taken over the years, and they're fine if you don't abuse them.

skylan_q 10y ago

I'm willing to believe anything bad about the Nazis. Upvoted!

eth0up 10y ago

Remotely apropos, and slightly interesting: https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/30/philippine-president-im-like-hitler-but-i-want-to-kill-millions-of-drug-users-duterte/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/30/philippine-president-im...

anabis 10y ago

Probably a detail previously considered too minor for foreign consumption. Imperial Japan also made use of meths, called "ヒロポン" at the time.

schoen 10y ago
The linked article says that German scientists "pinched" methamphetamine from Japan; does that mean it was originally invented there? Wikipedia says it was "first synthesized in 1887 in Germany" by a Romanian scientist and then "in 1893 by Japanese chemist Nagai Nagayoshi". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine#History.2C_society.2C_and_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine#History.2C_soc... Maybe the Germans learned the synthesis that they ended up using from Japanese research, despite being familiar with the substance before?
- gozur88 10y ago
  It says the Germans synthesized amphetamine, while Nagayoshi synthesized methamphetamine. There's a separate wiki page for "history and culture of substituted amphetamines" that gives a bit more detail than the main article, though not on this particular point.
  - schoen 10y ago
    Oh, thanks! I missed that.

h4nkoslo 10y ago

Meanwhile in the US, depending on which set of numbers you believe, something like 13-20% of the US population (including perhaps as many as 25% of women) are dosing on antidepressants. http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2467552#joi150128r27 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/246755... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/women-and-prescription-drug-use_n_1098023.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/women-and-prescript...

hackaflocka 10y ago
Surprised it's that low. I read somewhere that 50% of women are on anti depressants.

Synaesthesia 10y ago

Funny that it doesn't mention the Allied use of amphetamine, which was far greater, and the subsequent prescription blitz in the US, where 1 in 10 people were taking amphetamines by the 1960's. Now there was a society on drugs. "While consumption levels among each of the particular services remains elusive, I have been able crudely to calculate the (previously undisclosed) overall U.S. mil- itary consumption of amphetamine from the $877,000 worth of Benzedrine purchased from SKF by the government in the course of the war years. Applying the most conservative assumptions in the calculations, for instance, that the government paid regular bulk wholesale price for 10 mg pills, yields an estimate that the American military must have bought at least 250 million Benzedrine Sulfate tablets. The true figure is most likely double that number, around 500 million tab- lets in the course of the war, allowing for procurement pricing and the fact that the military mostly used 5 mg tablets rather than the stan- dard 10 mg prescription tablets (and it could easily be higher still if other conservative assumptions are relaxed).63 This estimate of 250–500 million tablets in total corresponds very roughly to a consumption rate of 10–20 government-supplied amphetamine tablets per year per American serving in combat theaters for the years 1942–45. Although well below the scandalous 30–40 tablets per serviceman per year con- sumption rate in the Vietnam conflict, it is still several (two to four) times the comparable British figure of about 5 tablets per serviceman per year, and roughly equivalent to the German methamphetamine consumption rate at its peak, the Blitz year of 1940." Quoted from "On Speed, the many lives of Amphetamine" by Nicholas Rasmussen.

yorksranter 10y ago
That would be because the book I reviewed is about Nazi Germany.