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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”
- failrate 10y agoI'm going to try this and see how it goes.
- M_Grey 10y agoHonestly, given how many broken driver's side mirrors you see around, likely received the same way, it seems like a smart move in general. Good for peds, good for bikes, good for cars, and good for the people getting out of their cars.
- megablast 10y agoGood luck changing drivers behaviour. It is hard enough getting everyone to use an indicator.
- saulrh 10y agoGetting it added to the driver's license test is probably the key here.
- Houshalter 10y agoIt would take decades for new drivers learning this technique to fully replace the current driving population. And I suspect most people wouldn't keep up the habit anyway.
- UnoriginalGuy 10y agoI hate that argument; effectively it boils down to "it is hard, so why try anything at all?" Even if it took thirty years and even if it was only ten percent effective, what is the negatives to this plan? One more minor skill to driving? One more bullet in the driving code?
- Houshalter 10y agoBecause by the time this plan actually works, humans won't even be driving cars anymore. And as I said I would be very surprised if it actually did work, given how quickly people lose the habits they are taught in driver's ed (how many people keep 4 seconds of distance, wear their seatbelt, never speed, adjust their mirrors correctly, look both ways for trains, etc.)
- UnoriginalGuy 10y ago> Because by the time this plan actually works, humans won't even be driving cars anymore. They'll still be opening doors and riding bikes however. > how many people keep 4 seconds of distance, wear their seatbelt, never speed, adjust their mirrors correctly, look both ways for trains, etc. Most people? Well except for the speed one. But the vast majority of people wear their seatbelts, give a safe travelling distance (although people are terrible at judging it), and are careful at railroad crossings.
- piotrkaminski 10y ago> They'll still be opening doors and riding bikes however. Will they? I'd expect an autonomous car's doors to be under its control unless the passenger declares an emergency (which would be a Big Deal, call the police, etc.). Also, once autonomous cars are plentiful and transportation is dirt cheap, how many people will still be riding bikes in congested areas?
- nixos 10y ago>Also, once autonomous cars are plentiful and transportation is dirt cheap Why do you think it's going to be dirt cheap? I expect it's going to be half of an Uber ride, but not much less.
- piotrkaminski 10y agoI expect that cities will heavily subsidize it, to bring it down to about the level of public transport (but far more convenient). I'll admit it's just guessing at a very nebulous future, though.
- cortesoft 10y agoUsing your blinker is a requirement in the driver's license test, too. So is driving with your hands 10-2, coming to a complete stop at all stop signs, and driving the speed limit. I don't think adding something to a driver's test is going to change much.
- saulrh 10y agoSay we removed turn signals or rear-view mirrors from the test; how often do you think they'd be used then?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- anarazel 10y agoComing from Germany to the US, I'm very regularly confused and annoyed how few drivers here use signals in a meaningful way. If used at all, it's halfway through the turn.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Cthulhu_ 10y agoDriving is all about forming habits; using blinkers, shifting, using mirrors, putting on the seatbelt. Adding a habit on how to open a door will help.
- umanwizard 10y agoIn the US being able to drive is culturally considered a human right. I think that's part of why standards for driving exams or so risibly low compared to Europe.
- justinlardinois 10y agoThis is in part because much of the US is almost impossible to get around without a car.
- hx87 10y agoYou would think it would be the opposite though--if driving were such an essential portion of our live, we would put much more practice and attention to it, not less.
- nathancahill 10y agoGetting doored is honestly terrifying (I don't say that lightly). I bike and longboard frequently, and I'll avoid bike lanes if they are alongside parked cars. And this is in Boulder, one of the most bike friendly cities in the US: http://www.bicycling.com/culture/advocacy/2014-top-50-bike-friendly-cities/slide/6 http://www.bicycling.com/culture/advocacy/2014-top-50-bike-f...
- wutf 10y agoAlso live in Boulder, also avoid bike lanes. Absolutely terrifying.
- justinator 10y agoAlso in Boulder, also a time I have to be hyper aware. I find the bike infrastructure in this city slightly... uneven. Sometimes, it's great, sometimes it's not very well planned out. I live off of 36 in N Boulder. It can be downright dangerous using the bike lane.
- jcomis 10y agoTry Denver. Downtown has several main routes of terrifying bike lanes on the left side. No one looks left/back when they are taking a left turn, even when theres a full car sized lane with reflective dividers (they also frequently forego blinkers, but thats another issue). The worst is the people pulling into parking garages mid block.
- thisisdave 10y agoI was doored once. I remember flying through the air and thinking, "oh, this isn't so bad." Then I landed and almost broke my hand.
- mintplant 10y agoReminds me of the opening narration to the French movie La Haine. Approximately translated: "This is the story of a man who fell from a 50-story building. The man, as he fell he kept repeating to reassure himself: 'So far so good, so far so good, so far so good.' But the important part is not the fall... it's the landing." https://youtu.be/Uz9vgtXq_Hs https://youtu.be/Uz9vgtXq_Hs
- jawbone3 10y agoRight, Large scale change of driver habits is a simple solution... a more enforcable suggestion is that the car owner is by default liable for any damages that happen from dooring, and that dooring is a fineable offence. Give car owners a real motivacion to check for bikes
- vacri 10y agoDon't like your cab driver? just open the door into the path of a bike.
- hx87 10y agoRight, because the passenger in a cab is never responsible for their actions.
- thrownblown 10y agoUsually they are. Cheatsheet: http://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/dooring_BLU.pdf http://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/dooring_BLU.pdf CA law: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH§ionNum=22517 http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection....
- williadc 10y ago> Large scale change of driver habits is a simple solution... I'm not sure how your proposed solution would work without a large scale change of driver habits.
- flycaliguy 10y agoSlightly off-topic, but I found it difficult to read an article with a looping clip of a traffic accident embedded. I skipped the second paragraph.
- paulsutter 10y agoHow do existing self-driving cars handle this case? Perhaps regulation could cover this if the manufacturers aren't. The cars should have sensors to know it's not safe to open the door. Getting rid of parked cars will be a good start. EDIT: obviously the car can sound a warning or even briefly prevent the door from opening. Similar case, what if a car or truck is passing by very closely at that moment.
- pimlottc 10y agoHow does the car being self-driving change anything? They don't open the doors for you.
- __d 10y agoGiven the sensors required to be self-driving, a self-driving car should be able to detect a bicycle in the "dooring zone", and prevent the door from opening and/or alert the car occupant.
- Reason077 10y agoYes, proximity sensors are capable of dramatically improving safety for pedestrians and cyclists, even in non-self-driving vehicles. Many categories of collisions caused by carelessness and blind spots could be prevented by automatically applying breaks, preventing doors opening, etc.
- ptaipale 10y agoActually, even current normal cars could easily give drivers and passengers that warning. At least a rental Golf I was driving recently made all sorts of warning sounds about others coming to the proximity, not just driving close to something. For instance, a scooter passing closely (this was Paris) would make the dashboard whine.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- jasonkostempski 10y agoHow about side view mirrors for rear seat passengers? As a driver with that technology I've managed to never open my driver door into an oncoming car.
- Anechoic 10y agoI was doing something similar to this over the summer when I sprained some ligaments in my left hand so it was painful to open the door using the "usual" left hand motion. The video seems to imply that reaching over your body to open the door with your right hand will naturally force your body to turn to see behind you (or to the side). This never happened in my experience, I can reach over and open the door with my right hand while still looking forward. Actually having to turn your torso has to be an additional learned behavior. I suspect that folks might make the turn at first if taught to do so, then eventually do the lazier thing and stop turning. As a cyclist who has been nearly doored on multiple occasions, I emphasize but the cultural change might be a bit too much to expect. TBH, I prefer jawbone3's suggestion of making the driver/car owner liable by default for "dooming" and applying a fine and/or surcharge.
- dpark 10y agoThey're already liable. That doesn't fix it, in the same way that speed limit laws don't stop speeding, and parking laws don't prevent illegal parking.
- ptaipale 10y agoAnd just to be clear, this is not just in the U.S. The clause is in practically all traffic laws in all countries, because it is mandated by the Article 24 in Vienna Convention on Road Traffic. https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/conventn/Conv_road_traffic_EN.pdf https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/conventn/Conv_road...
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y agoOr, as a bike rider one can simply look into a cars cabin and see if a person is inside. I assume everyone is a terrible driver, have no idea I'm on the road. I am a regular bike commuter on traffic heavy Los Angeles. I'll never understand the mentality of bicyclists who are more concerned with asserting their rights as opposed to exercising caution and restraint. Graveyards are full of people who had the right of way.
- msandford 10y agoCyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. It's also very frustrating to have to assume everyone is so ignorant that they wouldn't mind accidentally killing you for the sake of saving a second or two. I completely agree that being aggressively paranoid is the way to stay alive. But agreeing that it is the smart thing to do and believing that it's acceptable are different things. "Women are underrepresented in tech and they should just have to suck it up and deal with casual sexism & etc because tech bros can't learn to not be sexist" That's roughly the same attitude applied to women as cyclists. Seems a lot worse that way, doesn't it?
- pooper 10y ago> Cyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. It's also very frustrating to have to assume everyone is so ignorant that they wouldn't mind accidentally killing you for the sake of saving a second or two. I'll bite. Any cyclist who rides on the sidewalk, runs a red light, or flaunts traffic convention in general absolutely deserves to be treated as a second class citizen. Your wheels don't belong on the sidewalk. I'm sorry if I sound rude.
- ScottBurson 10y agoRiding on the sidewalk, for short distances and with a good reason, can be done safely and courteously, though it may require slowing to walking speed. How many car drivers never exceed the speed limit and always come to a complete stop at stop signs? Your absolutism should apply in both directions, no?
- caf 10y agoThis is great, because it's simple, easy to explain and highly actionable. It's incentive-compatible because implementing this yourself greatly reduces the chance you'll door someone, and few people actually want to cause an accident.
- thrownblown 10y agoJust reach over the handle bars and close the door first. https://www.instagram.com/p/BAayzrJmiJu/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BAayzrJmiJu/
- matt4077 10y agoI wonder if the car couldn't be more helpful. For example, a lit rear indicator light (not blinking) would be a signal that I could check for without much cognitive effort, and it wouldn't be too confusing for the rest of the traffic. Just having it turn on when car was turned off but the doors haven't been opened should cover most situation.
- diamondo25 10y agoAs a Dutch person, this is probably the cause of our parents always telling us to carefully open the door by looking first. And if you are not sure, open it a bit to see more. Also, in our license test, you'll have to learn the following rule: Getting out of the car, is just like turning the car, a special operation and you need to give everyone else priority so that your action will not cause problems. So take your time, be patient and be cautious.
- dpark 10y agoThis is far more believable than the claim that using the far hand will force you to turn 90 degrees inside the car and scan fully before getting out. It might serve as a good habit/reminder, but it's neither necessary nor sufficient to create this behavior. I think much of the US is unaware of how seriously some other countries take driver's training. Our standards are appallingly low.
- tempestn 10y agoAgreed. I was definitely taught to always shoulder check before turning right, and I can't remember whether I was explicitly taught or not, but it just seems like common sense to check if anything is coming before swinging your door open. That said, clearly it's not, so that really needs to be taught better as well. (And of course the third one that they do far better than us in Holland, and in Europe in general, is lane use.) Each of these is clearly a matter of poor education. I still remember my driving test having three increasingly ridiculous questions about how it's never ok to go even 1kph over the speed limit, but no emphasis whatsoever on these issues. I hope it's changed since then, but the evidence suggests otherwise.
- Tharkun 10y agoLetting 16 year olds drive is probably part of the problem. In more bicycle-friendly countries, kids start drinking before they start driving. Cycling to and from parties until they're at least 18. Hell, want to go anywhere at all? Cycle. It's a pretty effective cycling motivator.
- tschellenbach 10y agoCycling here in Boulder is definitely much more dangerous compared to The Netherlands. A lot of cars turn right without checking for bikes. What's up with that? On the other hand the bike sharing program here in Boulder is the best I've ever seen. (I'm Dutch and live in Boulder, Colorado)
- wtbob 10y ago> A lot of cars turn right without checking for bikes. What's up with that? Why are you to the right of the turning lane? If you are a vehicle, act like a (slow-moving, natch) vehicle: get in the right-most through lane, and hold it.
- jacquesm 10y agoBecause that forces you into car traffic, a place where a cyclist would rather not be. Straight through traffic on bicycles should not have to cross right turning cars, but should stay in the rightmost lane because that separates cycling traffic from car traffic the most.
- deathanatos 10y agoI see this all the time in SF: the car is turning right without being in the correct lane; the driver should be in bike lane (and partially still in the rightmost traffic lane) and should be signalling right, to indicate a turn. Inevitably, the driver isn't. As a biker, if I see a vehicle properly executing a right turn, I will of course either not pass the vehicle, or pass on the vehicle left in the space left in the traffic lane by the fact that the vehicle has moved in the bike lane, thereby not conflicting with the driver's right turn. But I have to know the driver is about to turn, and so many drivers just give no signal.
- Tharkun 10y agoThat obviously depends on the infrastructure. If the bike lane is an actual bike lane, then cars turning right should wait until cyclist are done crossing the road. Please don't assume your system is universal: it's broken and it's not.
- ScottBurson 10y agoI guess this is not a bad idea, but just looking in the side mirror before opening the door is easier to do, and probably easier to teach people to do. As a cyclist, I give parked cars as much room as possible. I've never been doored... though I've never ridden in NYC either.
- jacquesm 10y agoAnd your 'dead corner' is a lot smaller that way too, the rear roof support ('C style') can be quite wide and obscure a lot of your vision.
- frik 10y ago> the rear roof support 'C style') can be quite wide and obscure a lot of your vision It's getting worse and worse. Older cars (like 10-15 years old) still had bigger windows and thinner roof support. Sure, the cars looked maybe a bit less stylish, but the overview for the driver was a lot better (in all directions). Also new cars are wider and longer. Nowadays it's often hard to fit your car in a parking lot, and the doors open outside of the marked space. Some regulation would help to force manufacturers to think about designing cars a bit more.
- tempestn 10y agoThis is what I always do, and it seems to work fine. I can't recall whether I was ever explicitly taught this or not, but I find it amazing that some people apparently just fling their door blindly open into.. whatever might be there, without checking somehow.
- bbarn 10y agoThe problem is, dooring only affects the doorer after it happens. Most other traffic violations, like speeding, blowing stop signs, failure to yield, etc, can get you a ticket regardless of their outcome. Opening a car door into traffic, in Chicago at least, puts you at fault but there's no getting a ticket for not looking. There's only a ticket after your action causes an injury. Obviously, we can't have police ticketing everyone parallel parking for not looking in their mirror, so we think we need to attack this from an education perspective alone. I propose instead, we stop trying to segregate bikes into lanes that they don't fit into! Good bike lanes have a buffer between cars that makes dooring almost impossible. Bad: |B|C Good: |B|\|C Where B = Bike and C = car and slashes and pipes = paint on the roads. Or, if you prefer an image: http://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/gallery/bufferedlane_3d/buffered-bike-lane_parking3d_0.jpg http://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/gallery/bufferedlane_3d/... Or even better: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/9711441935_3df2f28926.jpg http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/9711441935_3df2f28926.jpg
- vahe 10y agoI don't think a painted buffer is any good. A real solution would be physically separated bike lanes.
- jacquesm 10y agoPreferably on the right hand side, that removes the drivers from the equation (most cars only have a single occupant), and it stops cars from having to cross the bike lane. https://argu-logos.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/4357/Overtoom_Amsterdam.JPG https://argu-logos.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/4357/Overtoom_Ams... The bike lane is behind the parked cars next to the pedestrian area (and a little bit lower), you can see a cyclist on the left hand side of the picture.
- Zanni 10y agoThe real answer is to get rid of street parking when you have a bike lane. They're incompatible. In fact, just get rid of street parking altogether. As a bicyclist, I've been doored. As a pedestrian, I find it difficult to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to cross the street in some locations. As a driver, I find it difficult to to see around parked cars to know if it's safe to enter the street AND I have a massively increased cognitive load of paying attention, not just to the traffic on the street, but to everything that may be emerging from a car or from between cars.
- BoringCode 10y agoSo where should the cars park then? Parking is a real issue in large cities and we won't solve it by removing even more spots. Other solutions (which are potentially more expensive) should be looked into before we consider removing street parking.
- zik 10y agoIn big cities these days most parking is off street anyway. A trend to remove on street parking in favor of better pedestrian safety and improved traffic flow can only be a positive.
- colmvp 10y agoI live in a big city that is having a similar debate of bike lanes sacrificing space for on-street parking. And it's a frustrating debate. Look, I drive. I love parking spaces because I hate looking for parking. But I also know that as more people move into the city, we need alternative modes of transportation. It's simply unsustainable to add more parking spaces in the hopes of alleviating the lack of supply. We're better off increasing usage of alternative forms of transportation by installing bike lanes (which when properly designed, unequivocally encourages bike usage) and increasing funding for mass transit. And on-street parking can be so frustrating on major streets as people have to brake and reverse into a spot, stopping traffic. Or they crawl at a much slower pace as they try finding an open spot. Or they force awkward lane changes as there is inconsistencies as to whether or not the lane is drivable/parkable.
- smartbit 10y agoIt is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the tiny narrow ones of the gif in the article barely exist. 3) Bike lanes in cities usually are placed between the footpath and the parked cars, with most of the times a 50cm wide band left of the bike path allowing for car doors being opened without going over the bike paths, usually this is used for planting trees too 4) All politicians drive bike, the Dutch Prime Minister comes to work on his bike 5) There are local associations part of the national http://fietersbond.nl http://fietersbond.nl in every town and they passionately lobby every time they see an opportunity. 6) these volunteers are highly respected and their input is valued by the municipalities 7) one of the prime goals of Dutch national ministerie of Traffic is lowering the number of injured and death in traffic, good recording of cause by police is step one, good statistics then determine the ways roads are laid out. 8) On smaller roads without a separate bicycle path, as a bicyclist you're always on the watch if someone might step out of a car and try to keep a distance by bicycling towards the middle of the road which isn't an issue as this is low traffic street, major bike transit always has separated bike paths with distance to the parked cars. 9) during driving lessons, watching bicyclist is a prime part of the lessons and a good driver keeps an eye on the mirrors for back-coming bicyclist and will warn passengers on the back seats before they get out. And there are probably more reasons that Dutch have few accidents being doored.
- jacquesm 10y agoThat's a pretty good list. Another major reason imo is that in an accident between a cyclist and a car the car is more or less automatically liable.
- seszett 10y agoIn France as well. Yet, if you go to the police station after a bike accident they will most likely refuse to take your claim unless you look seriously injured, and as long as the car did stop the police will just tell you to contact your insurance (which will do little more than reimbursing half the used value of your bike if you still have the invoice, after asking for a deductible amount several times that). I'm sure it's better in the Netherlands, but just making cars liable isn't a solution itself.
- thr0waway1239 10y agoA honest question for people who say getting rid of street parking is an economically viable idea - would it be economically viable if there was an underground road system purely for bikes, where there would be no way for cars and larger vehicles to share the ride? You also don't need to worry about the weather.
- TulliusCicero 10y agoIt would not be economically viable because underground tunnels are enormously expensive to build. The reason they can work for subways is because you don't need to excavate that much space for a subway train to move a whole ton of people. While bikes take up an order of magnitude less space than cars per person, subways take up another order of magnitude less space than bikes.
- IgorPartola 10y agoClearly the solution is to have doors that open like this: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0oV4IVy8tvE/maxresdefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0oV4IVy8tvE/maxresdefault.jpg
- Qantourisc 10y agoIn Belgium we don't have a word for doored either. But we don't use our right hand, we are just learned to look and make sure we are not going to smack someone of their bike. Also often the lane next to you is a car-lane. As such you also learn not to swing open your door wildly, as you might loose your door ;)
- lamontcg 10y agoYeah, this isn't just a thing to protect bicyclists, this is also about how to safely exit your vehicle with a lane of traffic next to you. Can't count the number of people over here (USA) that just blindly throw open their door and hope for the best. I always check, and if I have to open my door with a line of traffic going by (there's some streets around here where traffic going by is literally endless) I open it a crack first, then open it only as much as I need to exit, and do the whole process slowly, and watch the approaching cars the whole time. I can't remember the last time I've ever seen someone else do that though.
- RandyRanderson 10y agoDid anyone else click thinking the "Dutch Reach" was a sexual maneuver? 99% sadness.
- sctb 10y agoDon't comment like this on Hacker News, please.
- ereyes01 10y agoHere in Austin, some streets have done away with parallel parking in favor of back-in angle parking. This approach has some benefits, one of which is eliminating the possibility of dooring bicyclists. Music in the video is lame, but this video illustrates the concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HddkCbsWHlk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HddkCbsWHlk
- carterehsmith 10y agoPerhaps we could add radars that block the door if there is a risk of dooring, either by a bike, or another car. The car manufacturers have just agreed to put collision mitigation systems in all cars (by 2020 or something), and that requires radars and cameras. Even better, some cars have radars in the back, too, to identify cross traffic & c. So, identifying potential dooring event as well, might be quite doable using those same radars. Edit: I forgot that my car also has this 'Blind Spot Indicator', that is, some radars that look to the side and back, to figure out if the other car is in your blind spot. I guess that could be used to prevent dooring, too.
- ptaipale 10y agoI don't quite see why you're downvoted. The proximity sensors that already exist in many new cars (for parking assistance etc) could do this. Yes, they're not "radars" but for some purposes they work the same.
- Etheryte 10y agoWhile this could prevent some of the accidents, I'm not sure if the sum effect would be better. Allow me to explain: According to Google, the average cycling speed is 15.5km/h and the average car length is 4.5m. Surely these will differ a lot from area to area, but they're good for a ballpark measure. This means it takes a cyclist about one second (4.5m / 15.5kmh = 1.05s) to pass a parked car. Even if you have a car with sensors, if the cyclist is out of your sensors' reach (behind the corner of the previous car), once you open your door, that one second will not be enough for the cyclist to either stop or change course. What might happen, however, is having sensors could lead to more reckless behavior along the lines of "why do I need to look, I have sensors?".
- cerebellum42 10y ago>According to Google, the average cycling speed is 15.5km/h That sounds like a speed averaged over a whole trip - including the phases of deceleration and acceleration before/after traffic lights. From my experience, most people are closer to 17-20km/h when traveling, with plenty of fit people going at 24+.
- sixQuarks 10y agoI simply don't understand people that swing doors wide open without even a thought of looking. It's just plain stupidity
- mercora 10y agoi am suprised how watching out for cyclist, or anything really, is not common sense. I do that and i do not even have a drivers license... Oo
- cateye 10y agoBullshit article: the rule that everyone learns is to check your mirror and double check by looking over your shoulder. I have never heard of the right hand rule. It gets a habit because the chances are pretty high because of narrow roads and a lot of other traffic behind you.
- cateye 10y agoBullshit article: the rule that everyone learns is to check your mirror and double check by looking over your shoulder. I have never heard of the right hand rule. It gets a habit because the chances are pretty high because of narrow roads and a lot of other traffic behind you.
- CorbenDallas 10y agoAmsterdam resident here. Such a good infrastructure and laws for the bycyclists make them not giving a single shit about the way they are actually driving their bycicles. And their behaviour and driving style is often very offensive to both pedestrians and car users. So it's not that straight and black and white.
- zelos 10y agoI notice that whenever I visit Amsterdam. I love cycling in the Netherlands, but the cyclists are awful.
- mpol 10y agoThat is mostly just Amsterdam. In the rest of the Netherlands this behaviour is being frowned upon. And it is often not the Dutch people. Half the people in Amsterdam is tourists.
- CorbenDallas 10y agoNah. Guy with bunch of very small kids on his bicycle crossing on red without throwing even a quick look is not a tourist - I'm living in Amsterdam for five years now and that's enough to understand that :)
- sambe 10y agoIn Amsterdam at least, it is certainly not tourists who create most of the problems. Tourists are just a nuisance, usually clueless and going very slow and massively in the minority despite the overall popularity of the city. Dutch cyclists are substantially more likely to be running red lights without looking, at speed. They are more likely to be using their phone - meandering all over the path - or at night without lights. Stopping or turning without signalling - without checking over their shoulder - or pulling onto a cycle path without looking. There's also just as much nuisance cycling from groups of students two or three bikes wide having a social event during rush hour as there is from tourists wobbling around trying to figure out where they are going. This is a familiar pattern: exactly the same as car drivers, people think being experienced means you can get away with being lazy and/or selfish. Then just blame "those other people" for the problems.
- lukaslalinsky 10y agoI'm honestly surprised this is such a common problem in the US. Most of the parallel parking spaces here are next to the road, so if you open your door without looking, some other car will crash into you. We have been trained since we were children to always look when exiting a car parked on a street. We were not even allowed to exit from the road side of the car most of the time. As a driver, you have to be super careful, because when you are parked, there is usually a steady traffic less then 50cm next to your left. You basically always have too look and double-check before opening your door on a street. I live in Slovakia, but I think my experience matches most of the countries in this part of Europe.
- closeparen 10y ago>some other car will crash into you Most roads I've encountered have some space between the travel and parking lanes, big enough for a door and person, but this is also the space bikes use. Only on the narrowest streets do you have to watch out for cars.
- rconti 10y agoYeah, American here, I can't fathom opening my door when parked along the street without watching my side mirror as I do so. Sure, there's "enough room" on most streets to not have my door ripped off, but it seems a little silly to trust it so fully. That's sorta like saying you should just pin the throttle when the light turns green, as the other cars have a red light anyway, so it's unlikely that you will collide with anyone.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- mooneater 10y agoGreat, a solution that boils down to "bikers can be safe from just one of many mortal dangers, if and only if every single driver learns this new habit and does it right every time". I want solutions in which safety doesn't depend on perfect behaviour from people at minimal risk (drivers), like physical separation of lanes.
- Cthulhu_ 10y agoThe only real thing then is to ban bicycles. or cars. Both parties need to learn to co-operate, because while separated lanes will help improve safety, the fact remains that the two will always need to share roads, just like pedestrians do in many ways (think crossings)
- TulliusCicero 10y agoYes, but you can drastically decrease the danger through infrastructure like physically separated lanes and protected intersections.
- happyslobro 10y agoThis guy has the right idea. The problem, is that your doors are not the doors of a billionaire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJIAOosI6js https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJIAOosI6js
- fuckbicyclists 10y agoBicyclists should not be able to share the road with drivers in the cities unless they vote to become a primarily bicycle-based cities. Bikes were not meant to share the road with cars. I often see bicyclists ambling along in front of me at 20 m.p.h. and even if they're to the side of the road I still have to slow down to avoid any risk of hitting them, with cars coming up behind me. I'm usually forced to change lanes on short notice, which is dangerous.
- cr1895 10y agoGosh, your username really instills confidence that you'll think about this reasonably. In the 70s the people of Amsterdam decided exactly that: cars were too dangerous and cycling infrastructure should be prioritized. It's worked out exceptionally well. http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/visiting/plan-your-trip/getting-around/cycling/amsterdam-cycling-history http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/visiting/plan-your-trip/getting... >I'm usually forced to change lanes on short notice, which is dangerous. Slowing down and waiting for a safe opportunity to pass is usually a better option than making abrupt and dangerous lane changes.
- DanBC 10y agoYou've described why you're an unskilled car driver, which just makes me think that car drivers need better training.
- awjr 10y agoI've posted this elsewhere on this thread, but it needs repeating. The Netherlands is considered the best place in the world to drive. With 85% of journeys under 10km, most people choose to cycle rather than drive. http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/best-place-in-the-world-to-be-a-driver-netherlands http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/best-place-in-the-world-to-be... Your point is valid and one that is driven by the concept of sustainable safety and a Pedestrian First approach to urban design ( www.knightfoundation.org/features/livable-cities ). Walking, Cycling, and Driving should be mostly segregated from each other given the different speed profiles each has. This does mean that the priority in road design must be to provide space for each mode of transport, then consider the ability to park your private vehicle on the street. It is a political decision to prioritise parking on public streets over good space for each form of transport. This lack of "modal equality" in highways engineering is a really big issue.
- london888 10y agoGreat idea but I think more of us cyclists could be riding and anticipating 'if that car door opens can I stop in time?'. We can't rely on people in cars doing the right thing. Many of us cycle too fast to be able to react in time.
- tajen 10y agoIt's impossible to dodge a door open by an uncareful driver. It happened to me, I was cycling really slow, I was watching that door because I suspected the driver was still inside: When the driver slammed her door open, it just hit my shoulder, there was nothing I could do, it happened too fast. Since that day, I just constantly ring my bell when bike by car doors, which must be very annoying for the neighbours. But ey, safety first. One more reason it's difficult to dodge an opening door is, swaying out of the cycle lane may lead us to hit a car we haven't seen.
- london888 10y agofair enough - it hasn't happened to me luckily
- INTPenis 10y agoIt's weird to see this described as a workaround, or a deliberate method, when to me as a swede living in Malmö it's the most natural thing ever. It's up to drivers, and cab drivers, to warn their passengers to be careful when opening the door. Of course this is an imperfect system but from my perspective it has worked for as long as I've lived. Swedish traffic law dictates that the one opening the door is responsible for any damages caused, so to protect themselves, their insurance premium and their cars drivers obviously become careful when opening doors. It messes up your whole daily routine if your door is broken because of a bicycle.
- jules 10y agoIt is the same in the Netherlands. By the time people are old enough to get a drivers license they already knows this. Everyone gets taught this by their parents, and everyone cycles themselves so people know that this is necessary.
- Cthulhu_ 10y agoIt's also the more ergonomic way of opening a door, no awkward angle between hand and door lever.
- wobbleblob 10y agoLooking before opening your car door is an amazing innovation... what will they come up with next? Looking before turning?
- _ph_ 10y agoInterestingly, the bike lane shown in the first picture of the article rather marks the region that by German law cyclists are required to avoid. Cyclists are required to keep about a meter distance from parked cars to prevent dooming. That of course does not stop local authorities from creating bike lines exactly as shown in the article :(.
- adrianN 10y agoDo you have a citation for that law? It's the first time I hear about it.
- _ph_ 10y agoIt is not an explicit number in the law, but deducting from the requirements of driving safely, the bicyclists have to keep a distance from the right side of the road, especially from parked cars. There have been court rulings which require this to be 1m or more. You can find a bit about it here: http://pdeleuw.de/fahrrad/stvo.html http://pdeleuw.de/fahrrad/stvo.html
- tribby 10y ago1) this is not a clever workaround, this is common sense. if you don't do this already, you're a terrible motorist and shouldn't be allowed to drive. 2) do high end cars have proximity sensors for this sort of thing yet? comparable to the way that large vehicles alert you if you're about to back into something.
- stephenr 10y agoI'm not quite sure I understand. Do Americans not look at what's coming from behind them before opening a slab of metal and glass a meter out the side of their cars? Kind of reminds me of when I first moved to Thailand. My (now) mother-in-law asked her daughter why I kept looking over my shoulder when driving her car, and why/if I couldn't use the side mirrors. She had literally never heard of nor understood the concept of a blind spot.
- gfodor 10y agoeh, depending on the car, often times a blind spot is just due to someone failing to adjust their mirrors properly. if you actually do it right, you should not have a blind spot. if you can see your own car in your side view mirrors, you've adjusted them wrong. if they are adjusted correctly, cars approaching on either side of your vehicle will pass from the rear view, to the side mirror, into your peripheral vision with no gap of visibility.
- stephenr 10y agoI've read about this supposed "solution" and the greatest thing I took away was that it trades side-of-car blind spots (which I can resolve by turning my head) for rear-of-car blind spots, which I can do nothing about, as my head doesn't rotate 180º.
- hx87 10y ago> for rear-of-car blind spots How so? The only possible issue I can see about that solution is that you can't see your own car in the side mirrors and thus judging relative position is slightly more difficult. Of course, the best solution is aspherical mirrors, but for some reason they're not allowed in the USA.
- stephenr 10y agohttp://www.driveandstayalive.com/setting-exterior-mirrors-car/ http://www.driveandstayalive.com/setting-exterior-mirrors-ca...
- juiced 10y agoBullshit. I'm Dutch, never heard of or exercised this "Dutch Reach" behaviour and I was not tested for it when getting my driver's license. Instead, you just look around and in your mirrors to see if other traffic is coming before blindly and like an asshole opening your door, it doesn't matter how you open the door after you became aware of what is going on around you. I call this behaviour the "Dutch Common Sense".
- mvdwoord 10y agoSecond this. I learned to use mirrors and look over your shoulder as you open the door. Like you would if you were to take a left turn. Basic situational awareness.. This whole "Dutch reach" thing sounds more like something written for the internet points. As for the whole helmet thing, they do not make you more safe. Proper infrastructure makes you more safe. Unless you're riding downhill, racing or performing stunts. You don't wear kneepads when you walk down the street do you?
- freshflowers 10y agoNo bullshit. I was taught this. It's standard practice. You may have just had a shitty instructor.
- misja111 10y agoWell I wasn't taught the 'Dutch Reach' either when I got my driving lessons. I also have never heard the term before and it certainly is not standard practice.
- mettamage 10y agoI learned a variation of the Dutch Reach in my driver's license test (tested in Haarlem, school teaching it Max120). He didn't give it a name or anything and seems like common sense and I think it's a better way than the Dutch Reach described in the article. When you open the door you grab the door handle -- the thing that opens the door -- with your right and plastic black handle -- the thing that gives you more 'grip' -- with your left. By doing this you have a lot more control on closing the door as well if you still happen to accidentally open it when you shouldn't have. I had to retract once, because it appeared I had a blindspot where I couldn't see a cyclist.
- Asooka 10y agoWe don't let people do drugs, so why do we let them ride bikes on roads? It's the exact same kind of self-harm, brought on by poor life choices. All the problems in the article can be solved simply by having everyone be in a large sturdy steel frame, i.e. a car. Cars are cheap safe convenient and easy to use, so why is everyone getting on these two wheeled death traps?
- TulliusCicero 10y agoCan't tell if serious or not. Assuming you are serious: Bikes are actually wonderful transportation devices that fill a useful personal transportation middle ground between walking and driving. They're much faster than walking, but still quite cheap and healthy. By comparison, cars are extremely expensive and make you fat when you rely on them too much. Walking would be quite dangerous too if we didn't have protected walk lanes (we also call them 'sidewalks') and dedicated walk signals at intersections all over the place.
- Asooka 10y agoHave you tried getting a job and going to the gym? Modern life is wonderful, stop fighting it so much.
- waltruda 10y agoFunny how I have had almost the exact same thought for a long time. We do not let people carry guns, so why do we let people drive cars? Both are fatal weapons.
- gambiting 10y agoIs it just me, or is the cyclist in this gif(from the article): http://99percentinvisible.org/app/uploads/2016/09/doorzone.gif http://99percentinvisible.org/app/uploads/2016/09/doorzone.g... Cycling way too fast on a narrow lane like this? I'm not saying that he's at fault, obviously the fault is 100% on the side of whoever opened the door, but if I was driving 60mph next to a lane of standing traffic, that would be completely irresponsible, because if someone pulled out into my lane the accident would be severe. Driving in cities requires caution, but I notice that cyclists cycle as if they are alone on the road, zooming at 30mph past standing traffic. I'm not guilt-free, I used to cycle ~2000 miles a year in a large city and a I did my share of stupid irresponsible stuff on a bike, but I think both sides need a bit of education on how to be safe on the road.
- DanBC 10y agoSo clearly cyclists can't win. If they travel at the same speed as other traffic you'll complain they're travelling too fast. If they slow down other people will complain about having to share the road with slow vehicles.
- gambiting 10y agoWell, I was thinking more about some studies that show it's the difference in speeds on the road that creates dangerous situations, and not the speed itself. So if the traffic is moving at 30mph, there is no problem with a cyclist cycling at 30mph. But if they are cycling at 30mph next to standing traffic, that's really dangerous. If you watch the gif it looks like the cyclist is travelling too fast for the conditions of the road - a pedestrian has to literally jump out of their way, and there's no time to react to something like an opening door - in fact, there's a pedestrian crossing after that taxi, if there was anyone crossing the road there's 0 chance that cyclist would stop in time. I would feel exactly same way if it was a car driving this fast next to standing traffic - the same sort of danger.
- awjr 10y agoOne thing to consider is that the Netherlands is also considered the best place to drive in the world. Being pro-bicycle removes a significant number of short car journeys from the road. http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/best-place-in-the-world-to-be-a-driver-netherlands http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/best-place-in-the-world-to-be...
- mrsuprawsm 10y agoI'm slightly surprised by the "best place to drive in the world" claim. Urban driving in the Netherlands is pretty stressful, you have to check regularly for cyclists (in both directions) when turning, and also avoid trams/tram lanes. Although, since the bike infra is so good, you rarely find yourself needing a car here.
- jbverschoor 10y agoDutchy from Amsterdam here. Never heard about the term nor the technique. We're to look in all mirrors and behind the shoulder before acting.
- dirkdk 10y agoI don't wear a helmet in my home town Amsterdam. I do wear a helmet here in San Francisco. Why? Car drivers are just not used to bicyclists in SF. Yes open their door without looking, turn without using their signals. And in general, don't pay attention and are on their phones all the time
- Shivetya 10y agoWhen riding my bicycle I treat it as if I were on my motorcycle, all cars are threats and if I can see someone in a car I am passing they will open the door so I plan for it
- andmarios 10y agoThis is very old, for as long as I can remember (decades) you will fail to pass your driving test in Greece if you try to open the car's door with your hand closest to it and without checking the side mirror first.
- virtualritz 10y agoI Germany this is taught as 'Schulterblick' ('over the shoulder look') in driving school (which is mandatory in this country). In general, you are taught to always use Schulterblick when: 1. Changing lanes. 2. Entering/exiting from/to a ramp. 3. Turning. 4. Getting out of a parking spot. 5. Opening a door to exit the car. Modern rear mirrors are curved at the outer vertical edge to avoid any dead spot. This means just checking the mirror before you do any of the above should -- in theory --, be enough (except for some cases of 3). But better safe than sorry. An exception are trucks. They have a dead spot at the right which the driver can't check. Mercedes introduced a an electronic solution for this in 2014.
- jorgenhorstink 10y agoA couple of months ago I watched a short video about how we got our cycling lanes. I think it provides some interesting context on why we built our cycling infrastructure. If you like this topic, you'll like the video... https://youtu.be/XuBdf9jYj7o https://youtu.be/XuBdf9jYj7o
- anexprogrammer 10y agoInteresting. I'd just mandate drivers had to spend 10,000m on a motorbike, or time on bicycle and motorbike, before being let near a car. Car driving standards would improve dramatically.
- eecc 10y agoIt's been standard practice in Italy since forever: I witnessed someone failing their exam while I was waiting for my turn to get my driving license. The idea is that looking behind also protects you from being smashed to a pulp by an incoming car.
- Jugurtha 10y agoI've always opened the door this way. I want to know what's happening and it makes sense to open it that way. Kind of looking both ways before crossing, it'd be strange to give it a name like "The British Method" since you don't imagine anyone mentally undiminished not doing it.
- shiftoutbox 10y agoIdiots this isn't a Dutch thing it's how you are supposed to open a door to a car in the city .
- DavideNL 10y agoSo am i the only one who uses a different technique? I always look in the side mirror (the one on the driver side=left side) before i open the door, where i can perfectly see incoming bikes/etc passing my car. When i got my drivers license i was taught to do this and it became a habit, so i've been doing it ever since. Works very well. fyi i'm Dutch and i've never heard of the "Dutch reach" before.
- alistairSH 10y agoI do that - seems obvious to me, but I'm also a cyclist. That said, when I'm in the back seat, I'm not sure if I do anything to avoid dooring.
- mavroprovato 10y ago> I do that - seems obvious to me, but I'm also a cyclist. You don't have to be a cyclist. Another car may be coming and rip your door off. I think that using the mirror should be obvious to any driver > That said, when I'm in the back seat, I'm not sure if I do anything to avoid dooring. You could turn your head 180 degrees and look behind you I guess
- emodendroket 10y agoI don't know why anyone would fling open the car door on a busy road without checking their mirrors anyway.
- mankyd 10y agoIt's not that everyone does it all the time. It only has to happen, say 1% of the time. Combine that with the number of cyclists on the road, and the thousands upon thousands of car doors opened each day, and odds are it will happen. As the article states, it happens on average once per day in Chicago. It's not a lot, but it is a problem.
- emodendroket 10y agoI'm not disputing it; I'm just surprised so many people would do it.
- adamc 10y agoI know this would be a lot harder, but I think the best solution would be some city redesign where we separated bike and automobile routes, or at least minimized the places where they are together. The Dutch reach _is_ clever, but it takes a lot of retraining of existing motorists, so it will take concerted awareness raising and probably a fairly long time-frame to take effect here.
- chanandler_bong 10y ago...all this and no mention of Dutch Rudders?
- scraft 10y agoI am curious about how may incidents are caused from people that consistently are a bit lazy, and how many are caused by people that make a one off mistake. It is a genuine question. The reason it comes to my mind is recently I was doing a three point turn (actually a 20 point turn) to get out of my drive way, as other cars had left me with almost no space to get out, part of this manouver involved me having to pump up onto the kerb when reversing, and just after doing it, I saw a little girl appear from behind my car on her scooter, she then stopped and looked at me. I didn't find out from her (she disappear shortly after) whether I had almost hit her, or not, but either way it shook me up a little, as I appreciate I could have so easily caused an accident, and I would say I am a very careful, cautious driver. In this particular scenario other road users had left the cars parked in a way that bumping up the kerb was my only option, but I simply didn't see this small girl, I think she came from behind a parked car, so I couldn't see her. Luckily no harm was done, but it shook me up a little. Hopefully it'll reduce my chances of having a similar incident in future as it'll make more more vigilent to my surroundings.
- nightcracker 10y agoAs a Dutchman, this 'dutch reach' technique doesn't exist here. People just look, they don't use some trick to remind them not to be assholes.
- happy-go-lucky 10y agoThe other day I was at a four-way intersection, waiting at traffic lights with my bike, next to a car on my right. Red light was showing. There was no oncoming traffic. Then, on a whim, instead of waiting before I could move forward, I turned right 45 degrees and in an attempt to cross the road, walked my bike in front of the car and as I was passing the car, an aggressive motorcyclist who was behind the car moved out of the line very quickly with an intention to jump the red light and in doing so ended up T-boning my bike. I could get away safely but not without minor damage to my bike.
- poshli 10y agoResident of San Francisco here, a global leader in amazing bike theft stories. I look my steel cable through my bike helmet straps or I insert my u lock through the helmet. The only way to steal the helmet would be to saw it in half.
- veddox 10y agoWow, that's the first time I've seen 500+ comments on an HN thread about cycling! As to the "Dutch" grip: when I did driving school in Germany some years back, my teacher took great pains to impress on me to always look back before opening a door. In fact, not doing so can cause you to fail your driving test. As having to retake your driving test here can easily set you back several hundred euros, I learnt quickly...
- Frqy3 10y agoAn example of bikeshedding perhaps?
- hollander 10y agoTo be honest, I never use my right arm to open the left door, and I never heard of this practise. But I will always look in the mirror or behind me to check if a bike or scooter comes up from behind. In big cities like Utrecht and Amsterdam, in certain neighbourhoods with lots of migrants, it is - as a cyclist - not safe to assume that someone will check for cyclists from behind. You - as cyclist - have to take care of yourself, which means driving more on the road instead of the cycle path. As an experience big-city-cyclist this is no problem for me. I merge with car traffic without thinking. But I see it happen all too often that cars take a left or right turn without looking back. Same with people crossing roads without looking left or right. They just assume that the other people will stop. These are mostly migrants not used to our way of doing this, but more and more people using their smartphone in traffic do exactly the same.
- jvannistelrooy 10y ago"In big cities like Utrecht and Amsterdam, in certain neighbourhoods with lots of migrants, it is - as a cyclist - not safe to assume that someone will check for cyclists from behind." Do you think migrants in Amsterdam and Utrecht are worse at checking for cyclists coming from behind than other people? If so, how do you know this? Have you experienced it yourself and did you assume the driver was a migrant, or do you have more trustworthy data?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- ATsch 10y agoI Germany, many bike lanes are on the sidewalk, which is a good solution too, if you have the space for it.
- timini 10y agoIts called "common sense" or "being polite"
- raarts 10y agoFor a pretty thorough description of how The Netherlands achieves safe biking, see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0GA901oGe4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0GA901oGe4 "Fred Young, a Landscape Architect based in Seattle, led us through a visual tour of Dutch cycling infrastructure, share insights of the transportation experts he met and show how cycling is a part of daily life in the Netherlands."
- legostormtroopr 10y ago"Doing the Dutch Reach" sounds like a filthy euphemism.
- tripzilch 10y agoAnd this is what most Dutch people will take away from this article: looks at the taxi-GIF and images -- wait, who does that? did they do that on purpose?? the bike was like this close before they opened the door, how could they not see it? reads on -- so hold up, in the US people open their car doors without looking. Yes, no wonder bikes are getting "doored" left and right .. mostly right, I guess. I'm a bit at a loss for words, actually. It's like backing into a parking spot without looking. This isn't rocket surgery, I don't think you need a "clever workaround" :)
- tofupup 10y agoneat