7 ms·

Send Your Brain Back in Time

92 points by danielmorozoff 10y ago

CuriouslyC 10y ago
Valproate is unpleasant, and has a high incidence of side effects - I wouldn't be in a hurry to self-medicate to improve neuroplasticity. The beneficial effects of Valproate are likely mediated by increases in VEGF, BDNF and GDNF. Cardiovascular exercise has also been shown to increase expression of all these genes. Exercise has also been linked to increased neurogenesis in the hippocampus and neocortex, and that has been backed up with demonstrations of improved memory and learning. It will also help you stay lean, make you feel better and extend your life somewhat. If you read or watch TV/movies, just start doing it on a treadmill, elliptical or exercise bike at a leisurely pace, instead of sitting around. An hour or two a day of relaxing exercise really does make a world of difference.
- mdip 10y ago
  Perhaps I fell well outside of the normal patient in this case but I've been taking a small-ish dose (500mg/day) for about two years for treatment of Migraine. As my previous comment states, I make it a point not to read the side-effects (that's my wife's "job") and haven't noticed anything unpleasant about the medication other than it reducing my anxiety and making drinking alcohol less enjoyable. Perhaps my dose is particularly low. For the first couple of months I was at 1000mg/day and asked to have it reduced because the stark difference in going from mild-moderately anxious to zero anxiety made me not feel particularly like myself (reducing anxiety also reduced excitement and the enjoyment that came with it, so I felt a little too "leveled out") but even at that dose it was very tolerable and I would have been fine if I had to go back up to it to manage my symptoms. On the flip-side, I haven't suddenly been able to learn a foreign language (something that I calculate would require a lot of neuroplasticity for me -- I've struggled to learn any language beyond English most of my life) and my pace of learning -- which is something I'm inherently passionate about -- doesn't seem to be any better than it was two years ago. So while I wouldn't agree with the assessment of it being unpleasant and having a high incidence of side effects in my particular, anecdotal, case, I also wouldn't recommend self-medicating with it in my particular, anecdotal, case, unless, of course, you have suffered from Migraine for a couple of decades and have problems with the common medications prescribed for treatment. It's an interesting drug. When I started taking it, there was no information on WebMD/drugs.com indicating that it could be used for the prevention of Migraine. Forum posts throughout the interwebs abounded with anecdotal tales of people being surprised by the sudden elimination of symptoms. I, like them, was prescribed the medicine for a different purpose (though, in my case, I didn't have the disease it was prescribed for), but after seeing an expensive headache specialist that I had already had an appointment on the books for (made six months prior), I was told that he sometimes prescribes it for that purpose and it "either works or it doesn't" in his experience. It was a hit for me. And as of a search a few months ago, the more mainstream sites indicate that it is sometimes prescribed for Migraine. That it might have other benefits is great as far as I'm concerned, especially since I think I pay a little over a dollar for a 1-month supply.
  - ASalazarMX 10y ago
    Just a thought: some times, when you start to feel the side effects, it's too late to correct them, specially if it's organ failure. Please read the side effects.
mdip 10y ago
This is interesting - I just posted a comment about being prescribed Depakote to handle Migraine (which has completely eliminated my bi-weekly attacks for the last two years). I haven't paid particular attention to this kind of effect (and now that I know about it, I am certainly able to fall into placebo). Frankly, I haven't noticed any side effects from the medicine[0] other than a minor one of no longer enjoying the effects of alcohol -- though I was never a heavy drinker, I haven't drank at all since I started taking it because the relaxing, positive effects of a glass of wine are no longer present. [0] I've stuck to a rule about side-effects for medicines like this. My wife reads them thoroughly and I explain anything "different" that I might be feeling when taking the drug and allow her to make the judgement call as to whether or not I need to call the doctor/pharmacist. Because these medicines have such a huge list of side-effects, I'd find myself expecting to get one or more of them so much that I'd manufacturer them in nocebo effect style.
- deckar01 10y ago
  Would you consider contributing to Erowid[0]? There are only a few articles on Depakote, and they don't seem to be focused on the direct effects of prescribed use. [0] https://erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Pharms_Divalproex.shtml https://erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Pharms_Divalproex.sh...
  - mdip 10y ago
    Absolutely! I hate being an evangelist for a medication, but this stuff has dramatically changed my life and entirely for the positive, so I'll be sharing my experience and my notes (I kept a journal for the first 6 months of taking the medication -- subjectively logging a variety of emotional variables and a few objective physical ones -- I hate brain drugs, so I was being overly cautious). Thanks so much for the link!
olh 10y ago
After some reading [1] I found out that electrophilic ketones are better than valproic acid as histone deacetylase inhibitors. Maybe this is the source of the enhanced state-of-mind that people on a keto diet [2] report (me currently, reporting in). 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histone_deacetylase_inhibitor#HDI_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histone_deacetylase_inhibitor#... 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet
peletiah 10y ago
Kitesurfing is ridiculously hard to learn? That's news to me, learned it last year at 35, was not THAT difficult.
- _puk 10y ago
  To what level? Being able to waterstart, turn and stay upwind is akin to being able to order an evening meal in a foreign language. That may be enough to say box ticked, I've learnt that, but in reality your not going to be throwing down megaloops or back mobes; that's ridiculously hard. Not trying to knock you personally, fantastic that you've taken it up; Maybe I'm just bitter that after well over 10 years at this I still get shown up by the local kids :)
  - peterbraden 10y ago
    How much of that is about the difficulty of the skill and how much of that is the potential for injury? I disagree that learning those skills is harder with age, but healing is undeniably slower for older people, so you tend to become injury averse.
- collyw 10y ago
  Out of interest, do you do other sports that are in some way similar? I picked up skiing way faster than friends (or so they say). But then I already do or have done a number of outdoor sports. (I think controlling your fear is a large part in learning "extreme" sports). I am crap at languages but I see other people who already speak a few languages pick them up far faster than me.
bsder 10y ago
I hate these kinds of assumptions ... "There’s a reason adults don’t pick up Japanese or learn how to kite surf. It’s ridiculously hard. In stark contrast, young people can learn the most difficult things relatively easily. Polynomials, Chinese, skateboarding — no problem!" Um, ask some teachers about how easy that is sometime. I'm sure you'd get an earful. The biggest difference between adults and children is not neuroplasticity--the biggest difference is TIME. Children can spend 4+ hours a day learning a language, playing guitar, drawing, etc. In one year, that's roughly 1,000 hours. I would challenge you to find an adult who can commit 1,000 hours in a year into learning something completely new. In addition, children have a much better reinforcement loop. A child who can say even a couple of words in a foreign language will get wonderful praise; an adult won't receive praise until he can practically get a PhD in the language. Musical instruments are similar--a child can bang out stuff and everybody thinks it's wonderful--one wrong note as an adult and everybody is a critic. I suspect there is some neuroplasticity involved in language--certain sounds seem to be indistinguishable to non-native speakers after a certain age. However, I suspect that the neuroplasticity is dwarfed by simple time. I see little value in futzing with drugging the brain until we normalize things like time.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Exactly this. As an adult, it's close to impossible for me to find an uninterrupted block of 4+ hours without risking problems at work or with some errands. And I'm not even married, and don't have children yet!. A related thing is that kids don't worry. As a child, I could easily blow half a day - or half a week - playing with some new idea, because I knew I'll have more of free time next day, and the day after that, etc. As an adult, time is so precious that I often don't do something because I know I won't have enough time to finish it. Sure, a lot of problems here could be solved if one was better at micromanaging[0] their own time. And maybe more assertive than I am; getting time to learn involves saying "fuck you" to a lot of people who desperately want your attention. But still, I think the primary reason adults learn much less than children is that they don't have time - and energy - after spending more than half of their waking day at work[1]. -- [0] - In the StarCraft sense. Using time well too often feels like fighting 2 vs 1, where your enemies have already taken half 3/4 of the map, your economy is barely functional, and the only chance of winning you have is to outmicro them. [1] - Often closer to 2/3 if you factor in commute and meals.
YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago
Here's a nice double-bind: messing with your brain to become smarter when nobody knows exactly what the outcome will be, is a bad idea; yet, to understand this you need to not be dumb in the first place.
- anon4711 10y ago
  This is already addressed in the article, e.g. here: There might, however, be a dark side to the story. There is a good reason we were designed to have finite sensitive periods. Takao Hensch, a Harvard neuroscientist, has written that plasticity takes a lot of energy: It’s exhausting to keep all your neural circuits in a dynamic state. Restricting it may protect the brain. and in the paragraphs thereafter (I don't want to quote them here in full).
rosege 10y ago
I learnt a practical amount of a second language at 30. The first 3 or so months were super hard and I found that to even remember basic words I would have to repeat them about 10 times. But then I felt my brain changing and I could remember new words much more easily. About a year after that I picked up another language and this time my experience was that I could remember the words a fair amount quicker. So from personal experience - my brain just needed the stimuli for a prolonged period then it seemed to change
- amelius 10y ago
  How often did you train? E.g., was it once a week? Or did you immerse yourself into the language and culture full-time?
  - rosege 10y ago
    I did a couple of one week courses then it was ad-hoc as I was backpacking around
- sukilot 10y ago
  > The first 3 or so months were super hard and I found that to even remember basic words I would have to repeat them about 10 times. Do you think children at different in this regard?
  - rosege 10y ago
    Generally you would expect them to be much better but I guess it depends on the kid too - some would be naturally better
amelius 10y ago
> It turns out that a few key molecules act to open and shut periods in brain development. One is called histone deacetylase, or HDAC; it makes DNA coil up tightly and stops the synthesis of proteins that promote plasticity — thereby closing off the learning period. I presume this blocks only a few genes, so the coiling up is local (?) I can't imagine this blocking all genes.
tehwalrus 10y ago
I stopped reading when they used a comically bad simile: > Think of the brain’s sensitive periods as blown glass: The molten glass is very malleable, but you have a relatively brief time before it cools and becomes crystalline. Put it back into the furnace, and it can once again change shape. (the definition of a glass is that it is noncrystalline).
pofgiru 10y ago
So all you guys think it's a bad idea to purcahse drugs right now to learn new language and more desperatly to change my personality?
dacompton 10y ago
My intuition tells me that neuroplasticity is largely driven by genetics. Outliers in this space are likely caused by mutations related to neurofibromatosis. I also imagine that there is a huge memory component in some of these variants (for example, a person who can learn quickly but also forgets quickly).

Valproate is unpleasant, and has a high incidence of side effects - I wouldn't be in a hurry to self-medicate to improve neuroplasticity. The beneficial effects of Valproate are likely mediated by increases in VEGF, BDNF and GDNF. Cardiovascular exercise has also been shown to increase expression of all these genes. Exercise has also been linked to increased neurogenesis in the hippocampus and neocortex, and that has been backed up with demonstrations of improved memory and learning. It will also help you stay lean, make you feel better and extend your life somewhat. If you read or watch TV/movies, just start doing it on a treadmill, elliptical or exercise bike at a leisurely pace, instead of sitting around. An hour or two a day of relaxing exercise really does make a world of difference.

mdip 10y ago
Perhaps I fell well outside of the normal patient in this case but I've been taking a small-ish dose (500mg/day) for about two years for treatment of Migraine. As my previous comment states, I make it a point not to read the side-effects (that's my wife's "job") and haven't noticed anything unpleasant about the medication other than it reducing my anxiety and making drinking alcohol less enjoyable. Perhaps my dose is particularly low. For the first couple of months I was at 1000mg/day and asked to have it reduced because the stark difference in going from mild-moderately anxious to zero anxiety made me not feel particularly like myself (reducing anxiety also reduced excitement and the enjoyment that came with it, so I felt a little too "leveled out") but even at that dose it was very tolerable and I would have been fine if I had to go back up to it to manage my symptoms. On the flip-side, I haven't suddenly been able to learn a foreign language (something that I calculate would require a lot of neuroplasticity for me -- I've struggled to learn any language beyond English most of my life) and my pace of learning -- which is something I'm inherently passionate about -- doesn't seem to be any better than it was two years ago. So while I wouldn't agree with the assessment of it being unpleasant and having a high incidence of side effects in my particular, anecdotal, case, I also wouldn't recommend self-medicating with it in my particular, anecdotal, case, unless, of course, you have suffered from Migraine for a couple of decades and have problems with the common medications prescribed for treatment. It's an interesting drug. When I started taking it, there was no information on WebMD/drugs.com indicating that it could be used for the prevention of Migraine. Forum posts throughout the interwebs abounded with anecdotal tales of people being surprised by the sudden elimination of symptoms. I, like them, was prescribed the medicine for a different purpose (though, in my case, I didn't have the disease it was prescribed for), but after seeing an expensive headache specialist that I had already had an appointment on the books for (made six months prior), I was told that he sometimes prescribes it for that purpose and it "either works or it doesn't" in his experience. It was a hit for me. And as of a search a few months ago, the more mainstream sites indicate that it is sometimes prescribed for Migraine. That it might have other benefits is great as far as I'm concerned, especially since I think I pay a little over a dollar for a 1-month supply.
- ASalazarMX 10y ago
  Just a thought: some times, when you start to feel the side effects, it's too late to correct them, specially if it's organ failure. Please read the side effects.

mdip 10y ago

This is interesting - I just posted a comment about being prescribed Depakote to handle Migraine (which has completely eliminated my bi-weekly attacks for the last two years). I haven't paid particular attention to this kind of effect (and now that I know about it, I am certainly able to fall into placebo). Frankly, I haven't noticed any side effects from the medicine[0] other than a minor one of no longer enjoying the effects of alcohol -- though I was never a heavy drinker, I haven't drank at all since I started taking it because the relaxing, positive effects of a glass of wine are no longer present. [0] I've stuck to a rule about side-effects for medicines like this. My wife reads them thoroughly and I explain anything "different" that I might be feeling when taking the drug and allow her to make the judgement call as to whether or not I need to call the doctor/pharmacist. Because these medicines have such a huge list of side-effects, I'd find myself expecting to get one or more of them so much that I'd manufacturer them in nocebo effect style.

deckar01 10y ago
Would you consider contributing to Erowid[0]? There are only a few articles on Depakote, and they don't seem to be focused on the direct effects of prescribed use. [0] https://erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Pharms_Divalproex.shtml https://erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Pharms_Divalproex.sh...
- mdip 10y ago
  Absolutely! I hate being an evangelist for a medication, but this stuff has dramatically changed my life and entirely for the positive, so I'll be sharing my experience and my notes (I kept a journal for the first 6 months of taking the medication -- subjectively logging a variety of emotional variables and a few objective physical ones -- I hate brain drugs, so I was being overly cautious). Thanks so much for the link!

olh 10y ago

After some reading [1] I found out that electrophilic ketones are better than valproic acid as histone deacetylase inhibitors. Maybe this is the source of the enhanced state-of-mind that people on a keto diet [2] report (me currently, reporting in). 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histone_deacetylase_inhibitor#HDI_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histone_deacetylase_inhibitor#... 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

peletiah 10y ago

Kitesurfing is ridiculously hard to learn? That's news to me, learned it last year at 35, was not THAT difficult.

_puk 10y ago
To what level? Being able to waterstart, turn and stay upwind is akin to being able to order an evening meal in a foreign language. That may be enough to say box ticked, I've learnt that, but in reality your not going to be throwing down megaloops or back mobes; that's ridiculously hard. Not trying to knock you personally, fantastic that you've taken it up; Maybe I'm just bitter that after well over 10 years at this I still get shown up by the local kids :)
- peterbraden 10y ago
  How much of that is about the difficulty of the skill and how much of that is the potential for injury? I disagree that learning those skills is harder with age, but healing is undeniably slower for older people, so you tend to become injury averse.
collyw 10y ago
Out of interest, do you do other sports that are in some way similar? I picked up skiing way faster than friends (or so they say). But then I already do or have done a number of outdoor sports. (I think controlling your fear is a large part in learning "extreme" sports). I am crap at languages but I see other people who already speak a few languages pick them up far faster than me.

bsder 10y ago

I hate these kinds of assumptions ... "There’s a reason adults don’t pick up Japanese or learn how to kite surf. It’s ridiculously hard. In stark contrast, young people can learn the most difficult things relatively easily. Polynomials, Chinese, skateboarding — no problem!" Um, ask some teachers about how easy that is sometime. I'm sure you'd get an earful. The biggest difference between adults and children is not neuroplasticity--the biggest difference is TIME. Children can spend 4+ hours a day learning a language, playing guitar, drawing, etc. In one year, that's roughly 1,000 hours. I would challenge you to find an adult who can commit 1,000 hours in a year into learning something completely new. In addition, children have a much better reinforcement loop. A child who can say even a couple of words in a foreign language will get wonderful praise; an adult won't receive praise until he can practically get a PhD in the language. Musical instruments are similar--a child can bang out stuff and everybody thinks it's wonderful--one wrong note as an adult and everybody is a critic. I suspect there is some neuroplasticity involved in language--certain sounds seem to be indistinguishable to non-native speakers after a certain age. However, I suspect that the neuroplasticity is dwarfed by simple time. I see little value in futzing with drugging the brain until we normalize things like time.

TeMPOraL 10y ago
Exactly this. As an adult, it's close to impossible for me to find an uninterrupted block of 4+ hours without risking problems at work or with some errands. And I'm not even married, and don't have children yet!. A related thing is that kids don't worry. As a child, I could easily blow half a day - or half a week - playing with some new idea, because I knew I'll have more of free time next day, and the day after that, etc. As an adult, time is so precious that I often don't do something because I know I won't have enough time to finish it. Sure, a lot of problems here could be solved if one was better at micromanaging[0] their own time. And maybe more assertive than I am; getting time to learn involves saying "fuck you" to a lot of people who desperately want your attention. But still, I think the primary reason adults learn much less than children is that they don't have time - and energy - after spending more than half of their waking day at work[1]. -- [0] - In the StarCraft sense. Using time well too often feels like fighting 2 vs 1, where your enemies have already taken half 3/4 of the map, your economy is barely functional, and the only chance of winning you have is to outmicro them. [1] - Often closer to 2/3 if you factor in commute and meals.

YeGoblynQueenne 10y ago

Here's a nice double-bind: messing with your brain to become smarter when nobody knows exactly what the outcome will be, is a bad idea; yet, to understand this you need to not be dumb in the first place.

anon4711 10y ago
This is already addressed in the article, e.g. here: There might, however, be a dark side to the story. There is a good reason we were designed to have finite sensitive periods. Takao Hensch, a Harvard neuroscientist, has written that plasticity takes a lot of energy: It’s exhausting to keep all your neural circuits in a dynamic state. Restricting it may protect the brain. and in the paragraphs thereafter (I don't want to quote them here in full).

rosege 10y ago

I learnt a practical amount of a second language at 30. The first 3 or so months were super hard and I found that to even remember basic words I would have to repeat them about 10 times. But then I felt my brain changing and I could remember new words much more easily. About a year after that I picked up another language and this time my experience was that I could remember the words a fair amount quicker. So from personal experience - my brain just needed the stimuli for a prolonged period then it seemed to change

amelius 10y ago
How often did you train? E.g., was it once a week? Or did you immerse yourself into the language and culture full-time?
- rosege 10y ago
  I did a couple of one week courses then it was ad-hoc as I was backpacking around
sukilot 10y ago
> The first 3 or so months were super hard and I found that to even remember basic words I would have to repeat them about 10 times. Do you think children at different in this regard?
- rosege 10y ago
  Generally you would expect them to be much better but I guess it depends on the kid too - some would be naturally better

amelius 10y ago

> It turns out that a few key molecules act to open and shut periods in brain development. One is called histone deacetylase, or HDAC; it makes DNA coil up tightly and stops the synthesis of proteins that promote plasticity — thereby closing off the learning period. I presume this blocks only a few genes, so the coiling up is local (?) I can't imagine this blocking all genes.

tehwalrus 10y ago

I stopped reading when they used a comically bad simile: > Think of the brain’s sensitive periods as blown glass: The molten glass is very malleable, but you have a relatively brief time before it cools and becomes crystalline. Put it back into the furnace, and it can once again change shape. (the definition of a glass is that it is noncrystalline).

pofgiru 10y ago

So all you guys think it's a bad idea to purcahse drugs right now to learn new language and more desperatly to change my personality?

dacompton 10y ago

My intuition tells me that neuroplasticity is largely driven by genetics. Outliers in this space are likely caused by mutations related to neurofibromatosis. I also imagine that there is a huge memory component in some of these variants (for example, a person who can learn quickly but also forgets quickly).