4 ms·

I think associating this particular mummification practice performed by monks of Shingon sect of buddhism with buddhism itself isn't right. They took some buddh

by kamac 10y ago

I think associating this particular mummification practice performed by monks of Shingon sect of buddhism with buddhism itself isn't right. They took some buddhist teachings in 806 and modified them a bit. The founder of Shingon was a student of a Chinese teacher, who was a student of a Hindu teacher. Derogations are bound to happen. Even still, It takes some insight to comprehend their self-mummification practices. I suppose it weren't just a bunch of pointless suicides. That said, there aren't such practices in Hinduism or most, as it turns out(?) Buddhist philosophies (such as tibetan buddhism).

smnplk 10y ago
Right, but Buddhism has some extreme acts too. In 1963 a buddhist monk burned himself alive in the name of peace. A video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfNsk5l26U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfNsk5l26U WARNING: It's a bit graphic!
- Gudahtt 10y ago
  It's disingenuous to attribute that act to Buddhism; that was a political act.
  - inimino 10y ago
    It's an act that has been performed by Buddhist monks for many reasons, political or otherwise. I don't think you can make the distinction you're trying to make here.
  - westoncb 10y ago
    It was carried out by a Buddhist monk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...) in response to the South Vietnemese government oppressing Buddhists in favor of Catholics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis My impression is that while the impetus could be called political, removing the religious factors here would be far more disingenuous (especially considering the history of self-immolation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#History).
    - kamac 10y ago
      If you read that last wikipedia page about self-immolation that you linked, you'll find out that: > Jimmy Yu has shown that self-immolation cannot be interpreted based on Buddhist doctrine and beliefs alone but the practice must be understood in the larger context of the Chinese religious landscape. He examines many primary sources from the 16th and 17th century and demonstrates that bodily practices of self-harm, including self-immolation, was ritually performed not only by Buddhists but also by Daoists and literati officials who either exposed their naked body to the sun in a prolonged period of time as a form of self-sacrifice or burned themselves as a method of procuring rain. In other words, self-immolation was a sanctioned part of Chinese culture that was public, scripted, and intelligible both to the person doing the act and to those who viewed and interpreted it, regardless of their various religion affiliations. Other self-immolations were political protests, and they weren't performed only by buddhists. ( examples here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#Political_protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#Political_prot... ) Of course, as the wikipedia article says, "Since 2009, at least 120 Tibetans have self-immolated, more than 40 have died". But later on, you we read, "In 2013, the Dalai Lama questioned the effectiveness of self-immolation as a demonstration tactic. He has also expressed that the Tibetans are acting of their own free will and stated that he is powerless to influence them to stop carrying out immolation as a form of protest".
    - akssri 10y ago
      This of course was political, much as it is today in Tibet. As an aside, I've always found the way in which East Asian Buddhists held firm against cultural invaders, extremely inspiring. In India, there seems to be little other than memories of conspiring with the colonizers for profit.
    - geomark 10y ago
      There are a quite a few Buddhist monks who perform acts that are clearly contrary to the Buddha's teachings. Self harm is a very obvious one. A monk commits suicide for whatever reason and that implicates Buddhism? I don't think so. I think it's a dramatic demonstration of failure to overcome attachment to an idea (although he certainly overcame attachment to his body).
  - omarchowdhury 10y ago
    Were it not for the monk's Buddhist training, he would not have sat burning so calmly.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    "It's disingenuous to attribute that act to Buddhism; that was a political act." I would argue a Buddhist would describe it as a completely 'apolitical' act :) But I think it's fair to associate such things with Buddhism, or at least specific branches of it, because it's a pattern of behaviour and an attitude, not particularly common elsewhere, and the act itself is to some extent consistent with their actual beliefs and value system.
akssri 10y ago
Actually there is one such living practice amongst Jains, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhara sAkyamuni himself did, and many sAdhus today go to great trouble to become "asaktaH" (non-attached). It's said that former recognized the errors in this path, gave up on this course, and attained nirvana the subsequent day. Unless this is modern propaganda, I imagine Kobo Daishi was aware of it too. India too has not suffered a loss of creatures who file PILs at the slightest deviation from the fashionable. (note: Jainism is a traditionally recognised nAstika school, one that's not grounded in the vedAni. By this definition, Buddhism too is Hinduism - the demarcation only became rigid in the past ~200 years.).

by kamac 10y ago

smnplk 10y ago

Right, but Buddhism has some extreme acts too. In 1963 a buddhist monk burned himself alive in the name of peace. A video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfNsk5l26U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfNsk5l26U WARNING: It's a bit graphic!

Gudahtt 10y ago
It's disingenuous to attribute that act to Buddhism; that was a political act.
- inimino 10y ago
  It's an act that has been performed by Buddhist monks for many reasons, political or otherwise. I don't think you can make the distinction you're trying to make here.
- westoncb 10y ago
  It was carried out by a Buddhist monk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...) in response to the South Vietnemese government oppressing Buddhists in favor of Catholics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis My impression is that while the impetus could be called political, removing the religious factors here would be far more disingenuous (especially considering the history of self-immolation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#History).
  - kamac 10y ago
    If you read that last wikipedia page about self-immolation that you linked, you'll find out that: > Jimmy Yu has shown that self-immolation cannot be interpreted based on Buddhist doctrine and beliefs alone but the practice must be understood in the larger context of the Chinese religious landscape. He examines many primary sources from the 16th and 17th century and demonstrates that bodily practices of self-harm, including self-immolation, was ritually performed not only by Buddhists but also by Daoists and literati officials who either exposed their naked body to the sun in a prolonged period of time as a form of self-sacrifice or burned themselves as a method of procuring rain. In other words, self-immolation was a sanctioned part of Chinese culture that was public, scripted, and intelligible both to the person doing the act and to those who viewed and interpreted it, regardless of their various religion affiliations. Other self-immolations were political protests, and they weren't performed only by buddhists. ( examples here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#Political_protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#Political_prot... ) Of course, as the wikipedia article says, "Since 2009, at least 120 Tibetans have self-immolated, more than 40 have died". But later on, you we read, "In 2013, the Dalai Lama questioned the effectiveness of self-immolation as a demonstration tactic. He has also expressed that the Tibetans are acting of their own free will and stated that he is powerless to influence them to stop carrying out immolation as a form of protest".
  - akssri 10y ago
    This of course was political, much as it is today in Tibet. As an aside, I've always found the way in which East Asian Buddhists held firm against cultural invaders, extremely inspiring. In India, there seems to be little other than memories of conspiring with the colonizers for profit.
  - geomark 10y ago
    There are a quite a few Buddhist monks who perform acts that are clearly contrary to the Buddha's teachings. Self harm is a very obvious one. A monk commits suicide for whatever reason and that implicates Buddhism? I don't think so. I think it's a dramatic demonstration of failure to overcome attachment to an idea (although he certainly overcame attachment to his body).
- omarchowdhury 10y ago
  Were it not for the monk's Buddhist training, he would not have sat burning so calmly.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  "It's disingenuous to attribute that act to Buddhism; that was a political act." I would argue a Buddhist would describe it as a completely 'apolitical' act :) But I think it's fair to associate such things with Buddhism, or at least specific branches of it, because it's a pattern of behaviour and an attitude, not particularly common elsewhere, and the act itself is to some extent consistent with their actual beliefs and value system.

akssri 10y ago

Actually there is one such living practice amongst Jains, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhara sAkyamuni himself did, and many sAdhus today go to great trouble to become "asaktaH" (non-attached). It's said that former recognized the errors in this path, gave up on this course, and attained nirvana the subsequent day. Unless this is modern propaganda, I imagine Kobo Daishi was aware of it too. India too has not suffered a loss of creatures who file PILs at the slightest deviation from the fashionable. (note: Jainism is a traditionally recognised nAstika school, one that's not grounded in the vedAni. By this definition, Buddhism too is Hinduism - the demarcation only became rigid in the past ~200 years.).