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As someone who grew up in a Christian culture that cherishes life, I find this sort of thing deeply disturbing. But I don't want to dismiss Buddhism. Even tho

As someone who grew up in a Christian culture that cherishes life, I find this sort of thing deeply disturbing. But I don't want to dismiss Buddhism. Even though I'm an atheist, I admire Buddhism's focus on compassion, and I think it has a beneficial effect on Buddhist cultures.

alphakappa 10y ago
>Even though I'm an atheist... Interestingly enough, Buddhism does not entail a belief in God.
- code_sardaukar 10y ago
  Fair enough, atheist is probably technically the wrong term but it's a convenient shorthand for not believing the tenets of any particular religion.
- kamac 10y ago
  Assuming by God you mean Christian God. Buddhism brings views which you can associate with God, but they're not the idea of a being watching over us.
- vacri 10y ago
  It does entail a belief in divine beings, though.
kamac 10y ago
I think associating this particular mummification practice performed by monks of Shingon sect of buddhism with buddhism itself isn't right. They took some buddhist teachings in 806 and modified them a bit. The founder of Shingon was a student of a Chinese teacher, who was a student of a Hindu teacher. Derogations are bound to happen. Even still, It takes some insight to comprehend their self-mummification practices. I suppose it weren't just a bunch of pointless suicides. That said, there aren't such practices in Hinduism or most, as it turns out(?) Buddhist philosophies (such as tibetan buddhism).
- smnplk 10y ago
  Right, but Buddhism has some extreme acts too. In 1963 a buddhist monk burned himself alive in the name of peace. A video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfNsk5l26U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfNsk5l26U WARNING: It's a bit graphic!
  - Gudahtt 10y ago
    It's disingenuous to attribute that act to Buddhism; that was a political act.
    - inimino 10y ago
      It's an act that has been performed by Buddhist monks for many reasons, political or otherwise. I don't think you can make the distinction you're trying to make here.
    - westoncb 10y ago
      It was carried out by a Buddhist monk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...) in response to the South Vietnemese government oppressing Buddhists in favor of Catholics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis My impression is that while the impetus could be called political, removing the religious factors here would be far more disingenuous (especially considering the history of self-immolation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#History).
      - kamac 10y ago
        If you read that last wikipedia page about self-immolation that you linked, you'll find out that: > Jimmy Yu has shown that self-immolation cannot be interpreted based on Buddhist doctrine and beliefs alone but the practice must be understood in the larger context of the Chinese religious landscape. He examines many primary sources from the 16th and 17th century and demonstrates that bodily practices of self-harm, including self-immolation, was ritually performed not only by Buddhists but also by Daoists and literati officials who either exposed their naked body to the sun in a prolonged period of time as a form of self-sacrifice or burned themselves as a method of procuring rain. In other words, self-immolation was a sanctioned part of Chinese culture that was public, scripted, and intelligible both to the person doing the act and to those who viewed and interpreted it, regardless of their various religion affiliations. Other self-immolations were political protests, and they weren't performed only by buddhists. ( examples here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#Political_protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#Political_prot... ) Of course, as the wikipedia article says, "Since 2009, at least 120 Tibetans have self-immolated, more than 40 have died". But later on, you we read, "In 2013, the Dalai Lama questioned the effectiveness of self-immolation as a demonstration tactic. He has also expressed that the Tibetans are acting of their own free will and stated that he is powerless to influence them to stop carrying out immolation as a form of protest".
sixdimensional 10y ago
It's my opinion that most humans have to really try thinking outside the box to understand this particular case. Western culture, for example, has this innate fear of death. This is not a fear that other cultures share. One could call what these monks were doing mental instability, lack of education or being suicidal. However, from another perspective, one could call what these monks were doing an incredible act of mental strength, self-control and devotion, following their beliefs wherever they lead, for what they perceived to be a selfless act. I prefer to think that these are people who had a different way of thinking, they lived (and died) ascribing to that, without seeming to cause anyone else harm in their lives. Death was part of a bigger picture for them, not something they feared (or they taught themselves not to fear it). While I certainly don't ascribe to the belief system these monks shared, there is something that we can learn from this alternative way, and respect in its own way. Ultimately, I think that's what all compatible belief systems enable... a way of living peacefully and honorably allowing people to explore their own beliefs from life through death, and who knows, potentially beyond.
- ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
  "Western culture, for example, has this innate fear of death. This is not a fear that other cultures share." This seems incredibly broad and...just very off.
  - Retric 10y ago
    I think you can make a strong case for this. For example, Western culture lacks ritual suicide outside of possibly the idea of a captain going down with their ship. Though this is more utilitarian as the assumption is insufficient lifeboats. Other forms of ritual suicide are fairly common across most cultures.
  - acqq 10y ago
    I also have this "off" feeling, but I have at least one specific example: http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/we-love-death-more-than-you-love-life http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/we-love-death-more-th... "These grisly words are as foreign to Western sensibilities as they are all but sacred dogma for Muslim radicals at war with the West—and with Western sensibilities. The sentence originated with a 7th-century Muslim commander who threatened his enemies with the prospect of “an army of men that love death as you love life.” As if to prove that, at least in the Middle East, there is nothing new under the sun, Hassan Nasrallah employed the phrase in a 2004 interview to explain why Hizballah, the organization he heads, is destined to prevail over Israel" "How to understand this macabre sentiment? Martyrdom has played an important role in Islam since its inception, and a number of chapters in the Quran mention the rewards of those who fight and die for God."
hxegon 10y ago
#notallbuddhists
Pica_soO 10y ago
I miss the enshrined martyrium element. Cultures that have that have a tendency to bring forth innovators who keep going against all odds. Shia-Islam as a example.
hxegon 10y ago
#notallbuddhists
memracom 10y ago
Then you better not visit Kyiv's Monastery of the Caves in Ukraine where there are several similar self-mummified Christian monks. It is not just Buddhists who practiced this.
- akssri 10y ago
  I think he meant Protestantism in particular.
GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
Uh... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14317b.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14317b.htm """ Stylites were solitaries who, taking up their abode upon the tops of a pillar (stylos), chose to spend their days amid the restraints thus entailed and in the exercise of other forms of asceticism. This practice may be regarded as the climax of a tendency which became very pronounced in Eastern lands in the latter part of the fourth century. The duration and severity of the fasts then practised almost pass belief, but the evidence is overwhelming, and the general correctness of the accounts preserved to us is no hardly disputed. Besides the mortification of the appetite, submission to restraints of all kinds became at this period an end in itself. Palladius tells us (ch. xlviii) of a hermit in Palestine who dwelt in a cave on the top of a mountain and who for the space of twenty-five years never turned his face to the West. St. Gregory of Nazianzus (P.G., XXXVII, 1456) speaks of a solitary who stood upright for many years together, absorbed in contemplation, without ever lying down. Theodoret assures us that he had seen a hermit who had passed ten years in a tub suspended in midair from poles (Philotheus, ch. xxviii) .... Saint Alypius after standing upright for fifty-three years found his feet no longer able to support him, but instead of descending from his pillar lay down on his side and spent the remaining fourteen years of his life in that position. ""
- code_sardaukar 10y ago
  Just fyi, while I'm sure you didn't intend it, I find comments that start with "Uh..." to be rude. Regarding asceticism in Christianity, I also find its extremes to be disturbing. All I can say is that Christian culture as I understand it, especially Western Christianity, places relatively little emphasis on asceticism. And all these acts happened a long time ago when people took religion more seriously. And if you compare these to Buddhism (say in China) at the same time I think you'll find them relatively tame.

alphakappa 10y ago

>Even though I'm an atheist... Interestingly enough, Buddhism does not entail a belief in God.

code_sardaukar 10y ago
Fair enough, atheist is probably technically the wrong term but it's a convenient shorthand for not believing the tenets of any particular religion.
kamac 10y ago
Assuming by God you mean Christian God. Buddhism brings views which you can associate with God, but they're not the idea of a being watching over us.
vacri 10y ago
It does entail a belief in divine beings, though.

kamac 10y ago

I think associating this particular mummification practice performed by monks of Shingon sect of buddhism with buddhism itself isn't right. They took some buddhist teachings in 806 and modified them a bit. The founder of Shingon was a student of a Chinese teacher, who was a student of a Hindu teacher. Derogations are bound to happen. Even still, It takes some insight to comprehend their self-mummification practices. I suppose it weren't just a bunch of pointless suicides. That said, there aren't such practices in Hinduism or most, as it turns out(?) Buddhist philosophies (such as tibetan buddhism).

smnplk 10y ago
Right, but Buddhism has some extreme acts too. In 1963 a buddhist monk burned himself alive in the name of peace. A video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfNsk5l26U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfNsk5l26U WARNING: It's a bit graphic!
- Gudahtt 10y ago
  It's disingenuous to attribute that act to Buddhism; that was a political act.
  - inimino 10y ago
    It's an act that has been performed by Buddhist monks for many reasons, political or otherwise. I don't think you can make the distinction you're trying to make here.
  - westoncb 10y ago
    It was carried out by a Buddhist monk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...) in response to the South Vietnemese government oppressing Buddhists in favor of Catholics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis My impression is that while the impetus could be called political, removing the religious factors here would be far more disingenuous (especially considering the history of self-immolation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#History).
    - kamac 10y ago
      If you read that last wikipedia page about self-immolation that you linked, you'll find out that: > Jimmy Yu has shown that self-immolation cannot be interpreted based on Buddhist doctrine and beliefs alone but the practice must be understood in the larger context of the Chinese religious landscape. He examines many primary sources from the 16th and 17th century and demonstrates that bodily practices of self-harm, including self-immolation, was ritually performed not only by Buddhists but also by Daoists and literati officials who either exposed their naked body to the sun in a prolonged period of time as a form of self-sacrifice or burned themselves as a method of procuring rain. In other words, self-immolation was a sanctioned part of Chinese culture that was public, scripted, and intelligible both to the person doing the act and to those who viewed and interpreted it, regardless of their various religion affiliations. Other self-immolations were political protests, and they weren't performed only by buddhists. ( examples here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#Political_protest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation#Political_prot... ) Of course, as the wikipedia article says, "Since 2009, at least 120 Tibetans have self-immolated, more than 40 have died". But later on, you we read, "In 2013, the Dalai Lama questioned the effectiveness of self-immolation as a demonstration tactic. He has also expressed that the Tibetans are acting of their own free will and stated that he is powerless to influence them to stop carrying out immolation as a form of protest".

sixdimensional 10y ago

It's my opinion that most humans have to really try thinking outside the box to understand this particular case. Western culture, for example, has this innate fear of death. This is not a fear that other cultures share. One could call what these monks were doing mental instability, lack of education or being suicidal. However, from another perspective, one could call what these monks were doing an incredible act of mental strength, self-control and devotion, following their beliefs wherever they lead, for what they perceived to be a selfless act. I prefer to think that these are people who had a different way of thinking, they lived (and died) ascribing to that, without seeming to cause anyone else harm in their lives. Death was part of a bigger picture for them, not something they feared (or they taught themselves not to fear it). While I certainly don't ascribe to the belief system these monks shared, there is something that we can learn from this alternative way, and respect in its own way. Ultimately, I think that's what all compatible belief systems enable... a way of living peacefully and honorably allowing people to explore their own beliefs from life through death, and who knows, potentially beyond.

ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
"Western culture, for example, has this innate fear of death. This is not a fear that other cultures share." This seems incredibly broad and...just very off.
- Retric 10y ago
  I think you can make a strong case for this. For example, Western culture lacks ritual suicide outside of possibly the idea of a captain going down with their ship. Though this is more utilitarian as the assumption is insufficient lifeboats. Other forms of ritual suicide are fairly common across most cultures.
- acqq 10y ago
  I also have this "off" feeling, but I have at least one specific example: http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/we-love-death-more-than-you-love-life http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/we-love-death-more-th... "These grisly words are as foreign to Western sensibilities as they are all but sacred dogma for Muslim radicals at war with the West—and with Western sensibilities. The sentence originated with a 7th-century Muslim commander who threatened his enemies with the prospect of “an army of men that love death as you love life.” As if to prove that, at least in the Middle East, there is nothing new under the sun, Hassan Nasrallah employed the phrase in a 2004 interview to explain why Hizballah, the organization he heads, is destined to prevail over Israel" "How to understand this macabre sentiment? Martyrdom has played an important role in Islam since its inception, and a number of chapters in the Quran mention the rewards of those who fight and die for God."

hxegon 10y ago

#notallbuddhists

Pica_soO 10y ago

I miss the enshrined martyrium element. Cultures that have that have a tendency to bring forth innovators who keep going against all odds. Shia-Islam as a example.

hxegon 10y ago

#notallbuddhists

memracom 10y ago

Then you better not visit Kyiv's Monastery of the Caves in Ukraine where there are several similar self-mummified Christian monks. It is not just Buddhists who practiced this.

akssri 10y ago
I think he meant Protestantism in particular.

GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago

Uh... http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14317b.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14317b.htm """ Stylites were solitaries who, taking up their abode upon the tops of a pillar (stylos), chose to spend their days amid the restraints thus entailed and in the exercise of other forms of asceticism. This practice may be regarded as the climax of a tendency which became very pronounced in Eastern lands in the latter part of the fourth century. The duration and severity of the fasts then practised almost pass belief, but the evidence is overwhelming, and the general correctness of the accounts preserved to us is no hardly disputed. Besides the mortification of the appetite, submission to restraints of all kinds became at this period an end in itself. Palladius tells us (ch. xlviii) of a hermit in Palestine who dwelt in a cave on the top of a mountain and who for the space of twenty-five years never turned his face to the West. St. Gregory of Nazianzus (P.G., XXXVII, 1456) speaks of a solitary who stood upright for many years together, absorbed in contemplation, without ever lying down. Theodoret assures us that he had seen a hermit who had passed ten years in a tub suspended in midair from poles (Philotheus, ch. xxviii) .... Saint Alypius after standing upright for fifty-three years found his feet no longer able to support him, but instead of descending from his pillar lay down on his side and spent the remaining fourteen years of his life in that position. ""

code_sardaukar 10y ago
Just fyi, while I'm sure you didn't intend it, I find comments that start with "Uh..." to be rude. Regarding asceticism in Christianity, I also find its extremes to be disturbing. All I can say is that Christian culture as I understand it, especially Western Christianity, places relatively little emphasis on asceticism. And all these acts happened a long time ago when people took religion more seriously. And if you compare these to Buddhism (say in China) at the same time I think you'll find them relatively tame.