6 ms·

Twentysomething year old here, so you know, not like you don't have a point but: >the other reason is because it's easy/boring as hell I legitimately think fr

by Zyst 10y ago

Twentysomething year old here, so you know, not like you don't have a point but: >the other reason is because it's easy/boring as hell I legitimately think front end development is not only very fun, it can have some really challenging aspects. I wouldn't think there's any programming challenge that is inherently easier because it's on web as opposed to something else. Of course I bet there are domain-specific tasks (Distributed Programming, Embedded hardware to list some) that are likely harder than web development. But I guess what I'm trying to say is: I don't appreciate you calling what I make a living off, and spend quite a few hours studying weekly 'easy/boring as hell'.

thesmallestcat 10y ago
I was only speaking for myself. The challenges got old and most of the work felt like framework jockeying; it was work I could do in my sleep apart from the sweat of learning new tools. I won't deny that there are some exquisite challenges in frontend development, but most of the paying work does not involve them and is pretty CRUD-oriented. Also I was referring to web development in general, not just frontend.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
EpicEng 10y ago
Well, sorry, but... it is. Maybe you find it interesting, that's subjective, but there's no real technical challenge in front end stuff. You're not solving hard engineering problems; you're pasting together libraries other people wrote on top of libraries other people wrote (and on it goes) and searching google to figure out why your opaque stack doesn't seem to be working. Developing a good UI is difficult, no question about it, but not for technical reasons. Whether you resent that or not doesn't make it any less true. >I wouldn't think there's any programming challenge that is inherently easier because it's on web as opposed to something else. Not because it's on the web, because front end work doesn't require anything more than knowledge of your toolset and some design sense. It's nearly all "hey, build a UI with some CRUD functionality which is essentially the same as the 100 you've built before, but for this special snowflake customer." Bleh.
- sotojuan 10y ago
  There's engineering challenges in frontend but they only apply to Facebook-tier scale. There's also cooler stuff like data visualization, advanced animations/design and WebGL but those seem to be done by designers. For most of us, it truly is gluing X framework to Y backend over and over again.
  - EpicEng 10y ago
    Sure, but even then I wonder how much of that complexity (the scaling bit) is actually implemented by the front end devs. I would assume that it's handled on the back end, but of course a UI like FB, used by 1.7 billion people, can't be an easy thing to design.
    - nostrademons 10y ago
      At least at Google, "front end dev" extended down to the webserver tier, written in C++/Java. You were expected to make any changes necessary inside the webserver to complete your feature. That's part of what made hiring so hard: the number of devs who know Javascript and C++ and have their algorithms down cold is relatively low. I imagine it's fairly similar at Facebook.
      - EpicEng 10y ago
        Of course, that's not the definition most 'front end devs' fall under.
- GuiA 10y ago
  Honestly when I see what my friends who design airplanes and particle accelerators are doing, I feel like we're all kind of fucking around in software engineering, frontend or not.
  - EpicEng 10y ago
    I agree, most are.
quickben 10y ago
35 here. I completely understand why you are on defensive about something you are passionate about. Try to see our perspective though; web dev, we've been there. In my case, you name it, I've done it, nobody gave me a T-shirt thought they all asked for unpaid overtime. At some point you realize that it's a race to write more lines of code with every iteration, and that employers will gladly abuse your passion in many ways go get cheaper output from you. If I may take the liberty to give you an advice here, go for the lower level/more specialized stuff as your career progresses. Not only they change at a slower pace but they are paid way 2-4 times more here in Toronto. If you care that you studied and make a living off of it, try to focus after technologies where your hard work will be relevant longer. As for me, I love what I'm doing. Currently it's a mashup of crosplatform c++14, .net core rest api, elastic search, postgre and bunch of connecting glue. Our resident js expert is busy for the next few weeks so I'll probably learn typescript and go up my stack to provide an interface. Smaller shops are tons of fun.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > go for the lower level/more specialized stuff This is my own strategy, though domain specialised rather than low-level. I don't want to do "business" or project manage.
douche 10y ago
I can't get over the endless yak-shaving in front-end dev. Fighting with browsers that all do things slightly differently, a terrible programming language, an abused, crufty markup language and a baroque styling language on top of that is not my kind of idea of a good time. Not to even get into the node/bower/grunt/gulp/webpack/babel shitshow compile and build process that it seems to be trending towards. Working on the backend building APIs, optimizing data flows and managing backend services is more fun, and wildly more productive, if less whizz-bang and shiny. Speaking as a 20-something who frequently forgets he's not a forty-something...
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > endless yak-shaving I think this is the issue, it's not that the problems aren't hard, rather you aren't solving new problems, but trying to figure out how the existing tangle of software can be made to do what you want...

by Zyst 10y ago

thesmallestcat 10y ago

I was only speaking for myself. The challenges got old and most of the work felt like framework jockeying; it was work I could do in my sleep apart from the sweat of learning new tools. I won't deny that there are some exquisite challenges in frontend development, but most of the paying work does not involve them and is pretty CRUD-oriented. Also I was referring to web development in general, not just frontend.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

EpicEng 10y ago

Well, sorry, but... it is. Maybe you find it interesting, that's subjective, but there's no real technical challenge in front end stuff. You're not solving hard engineering problems; you're pasting together libraries other people wrote on top of libraries other people wrote (and on it goes) and searching google to figure out why your opaque stack doesn't seem to be working. Developing a good UI is difficult, no question about it, but not for technical reasons. Whether you resent that or not doesn't make it any less true. >I wouldn't think there's any programming challenge that is inherently easier because it's on web as opposed to something else. Not because it's on the web, because front end work doesn't require anything more than knowledge of your toolset and some design sense. It's nearly all "hey, build a UI with some CRUD functionality which is essentially the same as the 100 you've built before, but for this special snowflake customer." Bleh.

sotojuan 10y ago
There's engineering challenges in frontend but they only apply to Facebook-tier scale. There's also cooler stuff like data visualization, advanced animations/design and WebGL but those seem to be done by designers. For most of us, it truly is gluing X framework to Y backend over and over again.
- EpicEng 10y ago
  Sure, but even then I wonder how much of that complexity (the scaling bit) is actually implemented by the front end devs. I would assume that it's handled on the back end, but of course a UI like FB, used by 1.7 billion people, can't be an easy thing to design.
  - nostrademons 10y ago
    At least at Google, "front end dev" extended down to the webserver tier, written in C++/Java. You were expected to make any changes necessary inside the webserver to complete your feature. That's part of what made hiring so hard: the number of devs who know Javascript and C++ and have their algorithms down cold is relatively low. I imagine it's fairly similar at Facebook.
    - EpicEng 10y ago
      Of course, that's not the definition most 'front end devs' fall under.
GuiA 10y ago
Honestly when I see what my friends who design airplanes and particle accelerators are doing, I feel like we're all kind of fucking around in software engineering, frontend or not.
- EpicEng 10y ago
  I agree, most are.

quickben 10y ago

35 here. I completely understand why you are on defensive about something you are passionate about. Try to see our perspective though; web dev, we've been there. In my case, you name it, I've done it, nobody gave me a T-shirt thought they all asked for unpaid overtime. At some point you realize that it's a race to write more lines of code with every iteration, and that employers will gladly abuse your passion in many ways go get cheaper output from you. If I may take the liberty to give you an advice here, go for the lower level/more specialized stuff as your career progresses. Not only they change at a slower pace but they are paid way 2-4 times more here in Toronto. If you care that you studied and make a living off of it, try to focus after technologies where your hard work will be relevant longer. As for me, I love what I'm doing. Currently it's a mashup of crosplatform c++14, .net core rest api, elastic search, postgre and bunch of connecting glue. Our resident js expert is busy for the next few weeks so I'll probably learn typescript and go up my stack to provide an interface. Smaller shops are tons of fun.

Chris2048 10y ago
> go for the lower level/more specialized stuff This is my own strategy, though domain specialised rather than low-level. I don't want to do "business" or project manage.

douche 10y ago

I can't get over the endless yak-shaving in front-end dev. Fighting with browsers that all do things slightly differently, a terrible programming language, an abused, crufty markup language and a baroque styling language on top of that is not my kind of idea of a good time. Not to even get into the node/bower/grunt/gulp/webpack/babel shitshow compile and build process that it seems to be trending towards. Working on the backend building APIs, optimizing data flows and managing backend services is more fun, and wildly more productive, if less whizz-bang and shiny. Speaking as a 20-something who frequently forgets he's not a forty-something...

Chris2048 10y ago
> endless yak-shaving I think this is the issue, it's not that the problems aren't hard, rather you aren't solving new problems, but trying to figure out how the existing tangle of software can be made to do what you want...