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For side projects, it can be a little daunting, but ultimately represents a healthy eco-system. But the issue for me is how employers handles it. No, I don't k

For side projects, it can be a little daunting, but ultimately represents a healthy eco-system. But the issue for me is how employers handles it. No, I don't know Angular. But I have used Backbone, Ember & React. So do you really need an Angular expert, especially when Angular is only a few years old and is completely changing in Angular 2? Should employers insist on extensive trade knowledge in a specific framework, or should they be able to hire based on understanding of development and architectural principles, and give a new employee a little bit of leeway to get up to speed on their stack. If it's the latter, then you can relax, and focus on reinforcing good practices and understanding the theory about what you're working on, and your resume will continue to build. If it's the former, then you have to constantly pad your resume with skunkworks projects simply so it doesn't seem like you're getting "left behind." And that is exhausting, and not very useful to anyone.

highmastdon 10y ago
@michaelchisari honest question: are you a bit discontent with the fact that you don't know angular framework?
- michaelchisari 10y ago
  Not at all. Angular, from an architectural standpoint, is not something I would necessarily gravitate towards, although given a little time and proper documentation, I'm confident I could build something in it, so I don't feel very left out. Why do you ask?
59nadir 10y ago
I think the real markers should be that a person is not afraid of broadening their views. Usually, the advice for hiring for Erlang, as an example, is not to hire people that know Erlang, but focus on hiring good people (who are capable of learning beyond your average C-like) and then teach them Erlang. It's a small and very easily learned language, for sure, but learning it is certainly a bigger undertaking than learning a JS framework. It astounds me that hiring for JS frameworks actually is that specific, considering you're likely passing up on people that are simply better problem solvers.
- lucaspiller 10y ago
  I've been trying to learn Angular2 recently, maybe I'm not a good developer (but I faired ok with Erlang :D), but it really is such a struggle. Documentation is lacking, and what is available is often wrong or outdated. It doesn't help that half the tools and libraries are still in 'beta' and breaking changes are seen as a way of life. This post really sums up my experience, and I've done plenty of Javascript before (I just haven't kept on top of client side frameworks): https://hackernoon.com/why-learning-angular-2-was-excruciating-d50dc28acc8a https://hackernoon.com/why-learning-angular-2-was-excruciati... If I were to hire someone to work with me, I would try and find someone who has experience with Angular2. Angular2 vs JavaScript are effectively different technologies compared to Ruby vs Rails. I'd actually say for someone completely new (e.g. locked in a basement doing C or Java for the last 20 years), learning Erlang would be far easier than learning modern JavaScript and Angular2.
  - michaelchisari 10y ago
    Angular2 is a special case, in that a lot of the frustrations you're feeling are probably not far off from the frustrations that Angular1 developers are feeling. The decisions they made going from Angular1 to Angular2 are a big reason I've never really bothered with Angular. Just on a base level, if a system isn't properly documented, that does make a case for finding someone with indepth knowledge. But a company using a system that is very poorly documented as their core technology is a big red flag for me.
  - 59nadir 10y ago
    > I'd actually say for someone completely new (e.g. locked in a basement doing C or Java for the last 20 years), learning Erlang would be far easier than learning modern JavaScript and Angular2. I suppose that might be the case. It feels incredibly counter-intuitive, but it's not inconceivable that the JS frameworks stray that far from "normal JS". Were I in this situation as a employer (and co-worker, necessarily, not only in a managerial position), I would probably make the decision to use other technologies and compile to JS, in that case. There's very little to gain from using a framework that by necessity is tied to a crummy language if I can skip using that as a source language anyway, and then I'd just go with something sane like Elm instead. (Bear in mind, this is coming from someone who doesn't actually work with front-end development, so take it with a grain of salt.)
crdoconnor 10y ago
>But the issue for me is how employers handles it. Often they opt for what's "hot". Which is the worst possible approach. Or for what it seems easy to hire in (which isn't much better).
throwawayReply 10y ago
(This isn't a personal attack on you or your ability, I don't know you) I think yours is a dangerous attitude, I've seen a lot of mess produced by people who come in to angular knowing other frameworks and their output is terrible. Part of that is because angular is different, it's not very nice and it has obscure knowledge needed to make it play nicely with unit testing. If you take an ember / backbone / whatever expert and give them a few weeks angular training they'll rock a todomvc but full apps often end up with controller-as-a-god-object. Genuine experts would be really nice to find, but it's really difficult because frameworks aren't given time to mature before the smartest people have moved on to other frameworks. You're right that employers should hire on general understanding and give time, but the required time is typically 6 months and a failed project or two. Many employers don't make and don't want to make that kind of human-capital investment anymore. The "rockstar" who knocked something up pads their resume with another project with a hot new framework, got experience with another new set of tooling and can leverage that to move somewhere else to produce more working but hard to maintain code in another hot new framework because their CV is padded with experience showing they're a quick learner, but the company left behind pays the cost in maintenance. A genuine angular expert will likely be well employed for a while come helping troubleshoot and clean up the mess left by the cool crowd. p.s. I am not an angular dev, this complaint can be leveled at a lot of hot new tech, particularly but not just the javascript front-end world, it equally applies to people who knocked up go microservices at a .Net shop, or hastily introduced mongo to replace oracle, etc., etc.
- perlgeek 10y ago
  > I think yours is a dangerous attitude, I've seen a lot of mess produced by people who come in to angular knowing other frameworks and their output is terrible. > > Part of that is because angular is different, it's not very nice and it has obscure knowledge needed to make it play nicely with unit testing. A possible approach is to let developers new to a framework on a prototype or toy project first, and, very important, throw away that prototype. Yes, that means you might have to wait two or three weeks longer until you get started with the real project, but the result will be so much better. But that's one of the prices you pay for using an immature technology. For a more mature one, you could read a book on successful usage pattern of the technology.

highmastdon 10y ago

@michaelchisari honest question: are you a bit discontent with the fact that you don't know angular framework?

michaelchisari 10y ago
Not at all. Angular, from an architectural standpoint, is not something I would necessarily gravitate towards, although given a little time and proper documentation, I'm confident I could build something in it, so I don't feel very left out. Why do you ask?

59nadir 10y ago

I think the real markers should be that a person is not afraid of broadening their views. Usually, the advice for hiring for Erlang, as an example, is not to hire people that know Erlang, but focus on hiring good people (who are capable of learning beyond your average C-like) and then teach them Erlang. It's a small and very easily learned language, for sure, but learning it is certainly a bigger undertaking than learning a JS framework. It astounds me that hiring for JS frameworks actually is that specific, considering you're likely passing up on people that are simply better problem solvers.

lucaspiller 10y ago
I've been trying to learn Angular2 recently, maybe I'm not a good developer (but I faired ok with Erlang :D), but it really is such a struggle. Documentation is lacking, and what is available is often wrong or outdated. It doesn't help that half the tools and libraries are still in 'beta' and breaking changes are seen as a way of life. This post really sums up my experience, and I've done plenty of Javascript before (I just haven't kept on top of client side frameworks): https://hackernoon.com/why-learning-angular-2-was-excruciating-d50dc28acc8a https://hackernoon.com/why-learning-angular-2-was-excruciati... If I were to hire someone to work with me, I would try and find someone who has experience with Angular2. Angular2 vs JavaScript are effectively different technologies compared to Ruby vs Rails. I'd actually say for someone completely new (e.g. locked in a basement doing C or Java for the last 20 years), learning Erlang would be far easier than learning modern JavaScript and Angular2.
- michaelchisari 10y ago
  Angular2 is a special case, in that a lot of the frustrations you're feeling are probably not far off from the frustrations that Angular1 developers are feeling. The decisions they made going from Angular1 to Angular2 are a big reason I've never really bothered with Angular. Just on a base level, if a system isn't properly documented, that does make a case for finding someone with indepth knowledge. But a company using a system that is very poorly documented as their core technology is a big red flag for me.
- 59nadir 10y ago
  > I'd actually say for someone completely new (e.g. locked in a basement doing C or Java for the last 20 years), learning Erlang would be far easier than learning modern JavaScript and Angular2. I suppose that might be the case. It feels incredibly counter-intuitive, but it's not inconceivable that the JS frameworks stray that far from "normal JS". Were I in this situation as a employer (and co-worker, necessarily, not only in a managerial position), I would probably make the decision to use other technologies and compile to JS, in that case. There's very little to gain from using a framework that by necessity is tied to a crummy language if I can skip using that as a source language anyway, and then I'd just go with something sane like Elm instead. (Bear in mind, this is coming from someone who doesn't actually work with front-end development, so take it with a grain of salt.)

crdoconnor 10y ago

>But the issue for me is how employers handles it. Often they opt for what's "hot". Which is the worst possible approach. Or for what it seems easy to hire in (which isn't much better).

throwawayReply 10y ago

(This isn't a personal attack on you or your ability, I don't know you) I think yours is a dangerous attitude, I've seen a lot of mess produced by people who come in to angular knowing other frameworks and their output is terrible. Part of that is because angular is different, it's not very nice and it has obscure knowledge needed to make it play nicely with unit testing. If you take an ember / backbone / whatever expert and give them a few weeks angular training they'll rock a todomvc but full apps often end up with controller-as-a-god-object. Genuine experts would be really nice to find, but it's really difficult because frameworks aren't given time to mature before the smartest people have moved on to other frameworks. You're right that employers should hire on general understanding and give time, but the required time is typically 6 months and a failed project or two. Many employers don't make and don't want to make that kind of human-capital investment anymore. The "rockstar" who knocked something up pads their resume with another project with a hot new framework, got experience with another new set of tooling and can leverage that to move somewhere else to produce more working but hard to maintain code in another hot new framework because their CV is padded with experience showing they're a quick learner, but the company left behind pays the cost in maintenance. A genuine angular expert will likely be well employed for a while come helping troubleshoot and clean up the mess left by the cool crowd. p.s. I am not an angular dev, this complaint can be leveled at a lot of hot new tech, particularly but not just the javascript front-end world, it equally applies to people who knocked up go microservices at a .Net shop, or hastily introduced mongo to replace oracle, etc., etc.

perlgeek 10y ago
> I think yours is a dangerous attitude, I've seen a lot of mess produced by people who come in to angular knowing other frameworks and their output is terrible. > > Part of that is because angular is different, it's not very nice and it has obscure knowledge needed to make it play nicely with unit testing. A possible approach is to let developers new to a framework on a prototype or toy project first, and, very important, throw away that prototype. Yes, that means you might have to wait two or three weeks longer until you get started with the real project, but the result will be so much better. But that's one of the prices you pay for using an immature technology. For a more mature one, you could read a book on successful usage pattern of the technology.