5 ms·

A big issue with allowing organ markets is that impoverished people can practically be forced to sell their organs.

chrisseaton 10y ago
Yes, often welfare systems won't give you aid if you have assets such as cash or a home. Would your organs be considered assets?
- bcherny 10y ago
  I'm not sure if it was ever verified, but reminds me of this story from 2005 - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1482371/If-you-dont-take-a-job-as-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/148...
  - tremon 10y ago
    At the risk of sounding bitter: it's from a UK "newspaper" and it concerns mainland Europe. You should assume the article needs additional proof, not just verification.
- gutnor 10y ago
  I don't have worry about the welfare system not giving aid. The condition are generally often quite reasonable and there are going to be plenty of organisation to watch that over. What I worry about, is in countries like the US/UK where "having a student debt" has somehow become a badge of honour, I can see "selling a kidney" to get through university becoming the same honourable demonstration that you are committed to do what it take to succeed. ... and by extension, show people who are not as committed. You can see it coming: "my son sold his kidney to succeed, why should we give even more to the people that are not even ready to take such a small step". In general, we seem to expect people to take an ever growing amount of risk for the reward of maintaining their social standing. Being able to sell your body in piece is just raising the bar even higher.
ekianjo 10y ago
That's what's happening right now on the black market. With a real market you can ensure that this kind of things does not happen. (or at least control it)
- nostrebored 10y ago
  I'm sorry, but why would you risk death to make a few thousand dollars if you're not poor? This practice significantly targets the poor and desperate. The same issues that come with legalization of prostitution and sex trafficking impact the organ trade. So do the same failed arguments -- how has legalization and regulation of the market gone for Germany? Or rather how has it gone for German prostitutes, because from a tax revenue perspective Germany is doing wonderfully, with the perverse incentive to keep exploiting poor and trafficked women.
randyrand 10y ago
a rather easy solution to that would be to bar the poor from being paid. Sounds unfeasible, but for example -- we were also able to bar the poor from investing with the "accredited investors" title.
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  Does not work. Middle men and black market will still exist.
  - randyrand 10y ago
    the black market exists regardless. Middle men are easy to fix. Require the kidney transplant be done in a registered location and don't accept "nameless" kidneys.
JamesBarney 10y ago
Why would they be forced to sell their organs?
- sean2 10y ago
  Because a common occurrence when your poor is: You need $500 to pay for some debt now or a chain reaction will destroy your life. You've taken as much as your family has been willing to lend you and you've taken as much as the system (as much as you can understand it) is willing to loan you. You don't have that money. Luckily, someone is offering $1,000 for a kidney and you're compatible! You can fix your car / post your bail / pay the loan shark, with $500 left over! You're pretty much forced to sell your organ at this point. And this point is reached all the time by the economically disadvantaged. Of course, without the last resort of selling body parts they'd be even more screwed, so I don't know the right thing to implement in this case. Just wanted to answer your question.
  - smcnally 10y ago
    I don't disagree the poor would be targeted or coerced to participate. I do disagree people would be "forced," en masse, to donate organs. I also think removing it as an option misses a lot of opportunities.
    - timecube 10y ago
      If you can't get government assistance because you have an "extra" kidney, and you need to feed your family, I wouldn't call that decision anything other than forced.
      - smcnally 10y ago
        Is a government somewhere witholding assistance from anyone because they're not donating blood or an organ? Or is this a "logical conclusion" you presume it would be taken to should monetary compensation be made available to donors?
lenkite 10y ago
I request you to kindly read up more on this subject. Your 'big issue' already exists today! The poor in countries like India are already forced to sell their organs to rich donors in the West through the black market where they are paid a pittance. Debt collectors in India make a killing by preying on the poor. The rich pay the middle-men a truck load of money, but the actual donor gets very little at the end. Formally paying donors will at-least give them a much better price without the middle-men taking most of the money.

Yes, often welfare systems won't give you aid if you have assets such as cash or a home. Would your organs be considered assets?

bcherny 10y ago
I'm not sure if it was ever verified, but reminds me of this story from 2005 - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1482371/If-you-dont-take-a-job-as-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/148...
- tremon 10y ago
  At the risk of sounding bitter: it's from a UK "newspaper" and it concerns mainland Europe. You should assume the article needs additional proof, not just verification.
gutnor 10y ago
I don't have worry about the welfare system not giving aid. The condition are generally often quite reasonable and there are going to be plenty of organisation to watch that over. What I worry about, is in countries like the US/UK where "having a student debt" has somehow become a badge of honour, I can see "selling a kidney" to get through university becoming the same honourable demonstration that you are committed to do what it take to succeed. ... and by extension, show people who are not as committed. You can see it coming: "my son sold his kidney to succeed, why should we give even more to the people that are not even ready to take such a small step". In general, we seem to expect people to take an ever growing amount of risk for the reward of maintaining their social standing. Being able to sell your body in piece is just raising the bar even higher.

ekianjo 10y ago

That's what's happening right now on the black market. With a real market you can ensure that this kind of things does not happen. (or at least control it)

nostrebored 10y ago
I'm sorry, but why would you risk death to make a few thousand dollars if you're not poor? This practice significantly targets the poor and desperate. The same issues that come with legalization of prostitution and sex trafficking impact the organ trade. So do the same failed arguments -- how has legalization and regulation of the market gone for Germany? Or rather how has it gone for German prostitutes, because from a tax revenue perspective Germany is doing wonderfully, with the perverse incentive to keep exploiting poor and trafficked women.

randyrand 10y ago

a rather easy solution to that would be to bar the poor from being paid. Sounds unfeasible, but for example -- we were also able to bar the poor from investing with the "accredited investors" title.

AstralStorm 10y ago
Does not work. Middle men and black market will still exist.
- randyrand 10y ago
  the black market exists regardless. Middle men are easy to fix. Require the kidney transplant be done in a registered location and don't accept "nameless" kidneys.

JamesBarney 10y ago

Why would they be forced to sell their organs?

sean2 10y ago
Because a common occurrence when your poor is: You need $500 to pay for some debt now or a chain reaction will destroy your life. You've taken as much as your family has been willing to lend you and you've taken as much as the system (as much as you can understand it) is willing to loan you. You don't have that money. Luckily, someone is offering $1,000 for a kidney and you're compatible! You can fix your car / post your bail / pay the loan shark, with $500 left over! You're pretty much forced to sell your organ at this point. And this point is reached all the time by the economically disadvantaged. Of course, without the last resort of selling body parts they'd be even more screwed, so I don't know the right thing to implement in this case. Just wanted to answer your question.
- smcnally 10y ago
  I don't disagree the poor would be targeted or coerced to participate. I do disagree people would be "forced," en masse, to donate organs. I also think removing it as an option misses a lot of opportunities.
  - timecube 10y ago
    If you can't get government assistance because you have an "extra" kidney, and you need to feed your family, I wouldn't call that decision anything other than forced.
    - smcnally 10y ago
      Is a government somewhere witholding assistance from anyone because they're not donating blood or an organ? Or is this a "logical conclusion" you presume it would be taken to should monetary compensation be made available to donors?

lenkite 10y ago

I request you to kindly read up more on this subject. Your 'big issue' already exists today! The poor in countries like India are already forced to sell their organs to rich donors in the West through the black market where they are paid a pittance. Debt collectors in India make a killing by preying on the poor. The rich pay the middle-men a truck load of money, but the actual donor gets very little at the end. Formally paying donors will at-least give them a much better price without the middle-men taking most of the money.