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Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that?

by fecak 10y ago

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accept a counter you'll get calls and emails from the recruiter saying it's "career suicide" (it isn't) and that you're making a huge mistake. Then they quote these stats. I've heard things like "90% of people who accept counters leave the company in 6 months", and they might add "whether fired or through resignation" just to throw some fear into the candidate. These stats are pretty hard to find, and they should be, because companies don't report counteroffers to some agency. They happen in the dark. It's only surveys, and usually conducted by recruiting firms who have a vested interest in the results. Some counteroffers are a mistake, but the people who scream not to accept coineroffers the loudest are the ones with the most to lose. I've written about counteroffers as well, but didn't take the typical recruiter path (https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2014/02/19/counteroffers/ https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2014/02/19/counteroffers/).

Clubber 10y ago
I took a counter once. When you're miserable at a place, for whatever reason, a big pay raise will make you forget it for about 4 months, then you'll be miserable again. Life is too short to be miserable 8+ hours a day.
- elcct 10y ago
  This is how I picture it http://i.imgur.com/TK9zjDF.gif http://i.imgur.com/TK9zjDF.gif :D
- kevan 10y ago
  I'd guess plenty of people are in a situation where they're not miserable at the current company but they would like to get paid more.
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    If you are only able to get more by threatening to quit, that sounds like a pretty miserable place to me.
    - prklmn 10y ago
      Many people are afraid to ask for raises and default to looking for work elsewhere.
      - chrisbennet 10y ago
        For me, it just wasn't worth the hassle for a sub-market raise. Not giving me a raise in N years is sending me a message "You aren't valued." I found it much easier to just go someplace that would value me. I worked for wonderful companies and I liked working there but business is business.
      - CydeWeys 10y ago
        Looking for work elsewhere has a much higher success rate. The vast majority of programming jobs are simply at companies that cannot pay a really high salary for their developers. These companies just aren't big enough or profitable enough per developer to support it. My last job hop was like this, moving from a small company in a market niche to the big leagues. I'm making more now than anyone at my previous company except for maybe the owner. Asking for raises doesn't get you far for most programmers who are working at companies for wages that are roughly appropriate relative to their profitability. Or to look at it another way, the same programmer with the same skills is going to make more profits if they're working at, say, Amazon, than if they're working on some backend IT system at a regional bank. So the former has correspondingly higher remuneration.
      - cookiecaper 10y ago
        There is great political risk in requesting a raise. Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult, and for some reason, after you've gone to that substantial political risk, a lot of employers seem to think that their employees should be content with raises of 2-5%. If you do get a raise, the counteroffer issue is still valid; your employer is given cause to question your loyalty and may be more suspicious of your contributions moving forward. This sentiment has been expressed by MS CEO Satya Nadella and I'm sure it's popular in other management circles. Ironically, it's generally less offensive as well as much more effective at getting a real increase in take-home pay to go out and get an offer from an external employer.
- GuiA 10y ago
  It depends on why you got a counter offer in the first place. Accepting a counter offer because you told your boss "I like my job but I'm paid way less than some other companies would be willing to pay me, can we do something about it?" is a very sane thing to do.
  - Clubber 10y ago
    That's not a counter offer, that's asking for a raise. Counter offer is when you get an offer from another company and tell your boss you want to leave, but your boss makes a counter offer to keep you to stay.
    - bunderbunder 10y ago
      At many companies there are HR policies that make it extremely difficult for your manager to just give you a raise. Oftentimes these policies don't apply to counteroffers. I don't have any opinion on whether this is a good idea or not, but I do think that getting an offer somewhere else can at least be a plausible strategy - possibly the only plausible strategy - for getting a decent raise if you find yourself working at such a company.
      - Clubber 10y ago
        Yes, that's another unfortunate thing HR does. If I'm so miserable that I've actively sought, interviewed and received an offer, I'm gone. Like someone else alluded to, most shitty jobs aren't shitty because of pay. I've worked at 2 companies in the last 14 years and they both got really shitty after being acquired by a private equity firm. It usually takes 2 years until it's unbearable. I stayed so long because they were wonderful jobs; work and pay; and growing like wildfire before the M&A.
        vonmoltke 10y ago
        > If I'm so miserable that I've actively sought, interviewed and received an offer, I'm gone. Do you not look around unless you are miserable?
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  That's why the smart thing to do is to also ask for a change of position/responsibilities along with the counter-offer. It makes it less likely that you'll be miserable again after a while, and it also makes it easier for your boss to sell the idea upwards to his/her superiors (because it's not "i want us to pay him more to do the same stuff he's doing now.")
- huehehue 10y ago
  There are exceptions -- I've been hired multiple times by companies who were just getting into software and didn't really understand what they were hiring for. In all cases there were failures on both sides (me for not realizing what I was getting into, and them for bragging about a technical branch they didn't have); however, I very much enjoyed working at those places and would have stayed if they upped my compensation to match my [actual] responsibilities.
- rubyfan 10y ago
  I agree. The only way the counter makes any sense is if your only problem is you want more money. That's an easy fix, being unhappy at work is not easy to fix. Life is to short, move on.
- Pxtl 10y ago
  Sometimes, though, it really is about the money.
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byoung2 10y ago
My recruiter practically broke down in tears when I accepted a counteroffer in 2013. Counteroffers can be great tools to increase your salary, whether you accept or reject them. In my case it was purely about money. I was making $117k and I wanted a raise, but the company only wanted to give options. If it were an early stage Google or Uber, I'd go for it, but not this company. I wanted cash. They played the old "not in the budget, lets revisit in 6 months game" but my ace in the hole was an unsecured network share drive where I found an offer letter for a coworker showing he made $135k. I was genuinely ready to leave so I contacted my recruiter (who had placed me at 2 consecutive companies) and she got me an interview at CAA (the Hollywood talent agency) as a node.js dev. They beat my salary with an offer of $125k, plus some perks like 2 week company shutdown around the holidays, half day before every gov't holiday, generous bonuses and 401k match. The downsides were a commute to Century City, and having to wear a suit everyday. I went back to my employer and handed in my resignation and told them about the offer. They came back (unsolicited) with a counteroffer of $140k and an extra week of vacation. I took it and told my recruiter. She told me horror stories about people who take counteroffers who get fired or quit within months and how I would never work in this town again, etc. I stayed at the company for 2 more years and was promoted to director of engineering, and got raises to $155k and then $175k before resigning to work freelance. On my way out the company was begging me to stay and I could only imagine what they'd offer if I chose to entertain them.
- econner 10y ago
  Why did you quit to freelance?
  - beachstartup 10y ago
    probably more money, and more time. people get what they ask for. when you make nearly 200k working for someone else you quickly start to realize what you are actually worth in the open economy compared to someone who is trying to imprison you professionally.
  - DominikR 10y ago
    If you have the experience, contacts and social skills (very underestimated by many professionals in our field) you can make much more as a freelancer/contractor. I'm now self employed for 4 years and I earn 6x as much as I earned in my last job. (though I believe I was underpaid in my last job)
jonaf 10y ago
You can make $30,000 USD for placing a person??? I'm in the wrong line of work.
- bluedino 10y ago
  What do you think executive recruiting firms charge?
- fecak 10y ago
  20-25% of salary isn't uncommon, and salaries of 120 K in technology is seniorish developer range where I work (Philly and NYC). My business model is different now, but when I did pure contingency work a 30K fee wasn't uncommon.
  - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
    Do you have to wait a certain period before you get paid? Does this also work for in-house recruiters? Quite fascinating area really.
    - fecak 10y ago
      Most clients require a guarantee, usually around 90 days. Sometimes pay terms are sooner, so theoretically you could have to refund a fee if a candidate leaves quickly and you don't replace them. In-house recruiters are not usually paid fees like agency recruiters - they might get bonuses, but most in-house are paid mostly in salary with smaller performance bonus. Agency recruiters are usually paid little (sometimes nothing) in salary with most comp coming via commission. This explains bad recruiter behavior, or at least much of it. Every deal might be 10-20K in the recruiter's pocket. For that amount of money, some people will do things they wouldn't normally do, and morals go out the window.
      - cscurmudgeon 10y ago
        Thanks for the detailed answer! Appreciate it.
- 10y ago
argonaut 10y ago
The author is not an agency recruiter. So this hardly seems relevant to his post.
- fecak 10y ago
  The poster is the author, and in this thread he posted the type of recruiter cited (and recruiter reported) surveys that I refer to in my comment. I wasn't suggesting the author is a recruiter. Only that the usual source of these types of opinions (and the source of the supposed data) is almost always an agency recruiter.
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peteretep 10y ago
Also a recruiter and was about to write an identical comment, so thankyou
- fecak 10y ago
  Good to hear. Most recruiters stick to the "counteroffers are bad" script pretty closely in all the articles they post. It's just dishonest and makes us all look bad.
  - peteretep 10y ago
    I also spent a long time as a developer and successfully took counter offers a few times. Sometimes it really is just about the money, and your line manager needed the impetus to justify the cost to their manager
  - simonswords82 10y ago
    Sadly based on my experience with recruiters the majority of them make you all look bad.
    - fecak 10y ago
      This is sadly accurate. I've had unemployed entry-level candidates say 'no thanks', and I have the benefit of a decent reputation based on my writings. It's getting difficult to do the job.
    - peteretep 10y ago
      I think it helps to hug a specific community or two, and build a solid reputation.
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FT_intern 10y ago
Is there any opportunity to negotiate with the recruiter for a cut of the fees/commission as a signing bonus?
- fecak 10y ago
  You could always try, but most would probably think this lacks tact. Would you consider asking the car salesman to personally pay for extra car options in order for you to buy the car? Recruiter fees are often very high (too high in my opinion, which is why we have bad recruiter behavior) so if you get a high salary a recruiter might be willing to kick back a small amount. I'm not sure how the hiring company would feel about this though - if the comp package being offered wasn't enough, you might appear like someone who won't be happy with the comp.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  What are you bringing to the table that would entice a recruiter to do that? If you are such a hot commodity that it is worth the recruiter to give you part of their commission, then why do you need a recruiter at all? It will be easier to negotiate a signing bonus from your new employer if you don't go through a recruiter.
  - FT_intern 10y ago
    >What are you bringing to the table that would entice a recruiter to do that? Because it would cost him more in time to find another candidate than to give you a cut. This is assuming you've passed the interviews.
    - mikekchar 10y ago
      So you're going to get a job offer and then demand a cut from the recruiter before accepting? Good luck ever getting another recruiter in the future. I absolutely guarantee that this will not work.
- bengale 10y ago
  It's not something I'd attempt. Normally they'll have negotiated rates with the hiring company, they won't want to reopen that to give you a kickback.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
Wow. The source the author cites for his counteroffer statistic (http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-not-accepting-a-counter-offer/ http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-not...) includes this passage: > Back to my candidate. Two days after he took the counter-offer, I received a call from one of his colleagues. She said word on the street was that one of her co-workers had recently accepted a counter-offer with her employer, and she wanted me to know she would never do that. If I represented her, once she gave a commitment, she would stick to it. Not only that, but she also said only a weak-minded person would do something like that (accept a counter-offer) and she had lost all respect for this person. Can you imagine an actual human being calling up a recruiter completely unprompted to inform them that counteroffer-accepters are weak-minded jerks and no one likes them? It's like one of those ads where a bunch of guys suddenly interrupt their game of ultimate frisbee or whatever to discuss how great their car insurance company is.
lliamander 10y ago
Thank you for the honest assessment; I had not previously been fully aware of the incentives on recruiters or the source of their statements. That said, early in my career as an employee, prior to reading any advice by recruiters, I made a decision to not accept counter-offers as a general rule. My main reasons are the ones people usually cite: a) if I am dissatisfied enough with my job that I applied for other jobs, it is almost certainly not (just) about the money, and b) my relationship with both employers becoming strained. So far it has worked out for me, and I don't plan on changing that, but I'll be sure to keep this in mind in the future.
- fecak 10y ago
  I try to provide transparency into the recruiting business as I think it actually helps all parties. I mentioned possibly writing a book about the recruiting industry and got lots of support, so I still might do that. Recruiting as an industry usually benefits from the other parties having a lack of information, and I hope that starts to change. Most recruiters would rather have you believe the scary counteroffer "stats" that aren't well documented. A counteroffer can "right a wrong" in some cases, and employees who are not sure how to ask for raises/promotions/changes to their employment situation may find that their resignation facilitates a conversation that maybe could have happened if they'd asked.
  - lliamander 10y ago
    > Recruiting as an industry usually benefits from the other parties having a lack of information, and I hope that starts to change. Agreed. I appreciate your work in this regard. > A counteroffer can "right a wrong" in some cases, and employees who are not sure how to ask for raises/promotions/changes to their employment situation may find that their resignation facilitates a conversation that maybe could have happened if they'd asked. I was thinking about this very problem after my post, and while I don't have a better solution, I think I have a better understanding to the cause. Sometimes employers take for granted the increasing value provided by the employee (which, along with other factors, may be a sign of bad management) but even when the employee's value contribution is stable, their opportunity cost for keeping their current job goes up. Either the employer is unaware of that increase in opportunity cost, or they are banking on the employee not being aware / being unwilling to leverage that opportunity cost. It's not enough that the employee be fully aware of their own opportunity costs, their employer has to know that they know (and the employee has to know that their employer knows, and so on. i.e. "common knowledge"). I see your point as being that the only way right now for that opportunity cost to become common knowledge is for an employee to field offers from other companies. Trusted intermediaries or professional associations could probably help make the costs to all sides more transparent, and maybe they already do, but that's about as far as I know.
jbb555 10y ago
I got the same a number of years ago when I went through a difficult recruitment process to get a job, and got the offer and in the end turned it down because after extended consideration that it just wasn't the right job for me even though it was a good job with a significant pay increase. It was using technologies I didn't specially want to work on, for a company that didn't really interest me, and who hadn't persuaded me that they were doing anything I'd be interested in. Nothing wrong with the job, or the offer, it just wasn't the right place for me. I recruiter was not happy and basically told me that I wouldn't get anything else, and if I got a reputation for turning down jobs I couldn't expect agencies to ever put me forward for anything else. They just screamed at me on the phone. I did get another job and it was far better (for me) than the one I turned down.
- bengale 10y ago
  I've had a recruiter lose it with me on the phone. Since I'm normally involved in recruitment wherever I go, they've been blacklisted at each place so far. It's a small world, we can't burn bridges and neither, should they.
jrockway 10y ago
Career suicide for a software engineer? Unless you murdered someone and you're in prison for life, I don't see how that's possible in today's market. Back when I worked at a bank, counter offers were the standard way of getting a raise. If you had a competing offer, the Bank would almost always match that. Meanwhile, raises were maybe 1% a year. (I remember that Illinois raised state income tax at about the same time I got a raise. I had less take-home pay after both of those took effect than before. Raises didn't even keep up with the tax burden, much less the cost of living. Not that they necessarily should, but they also didn't keep up with my career growth, which is a better benchmark.)
- fecak 10y ago
  Of course it's not career suicide for a software engineer, and recruiters that make such claims should lose credibility with a candidate when they say these things. The recruiter counteroffer "script" ("career suicide", "you'll be fired once they can replace you", "you'll never get a promotion", "you'll be an outcast at work", etc.) is all stuff that could happen (other than the suicide part), but is highly unlikely just based on how many times we hear anecdotes about a counteroffer working out and the person staying for years. Counteroffers are still a fairly common way to get a raise in software, although I think now that there is much less stigma to "job hopping" candidates are just as likely to move to new companies to get the raise.
  - jrockway 10y ago
    > The recruiter counteroffer "script" ("career suicide", "you'll be fired once they can replace you", "you'll never get a promotion", "you'll be an outcast at work", etc.) Sounds like you can just say, "I guess I'll go work for you then."
adekok 10y ago
I have a related story about job offers. I had a job offer fresh out of University, for about half of what the standard salary was at the time. After some thinking (2min... NO), and letting them stew for a few days, I told them "No". They asked if it was because of the salary. "Yes, yes, it is". They immediately doubled their offer. Sorry, but the answer is still "No." If the first contact you have with me is that you try to screw me and assume I'm stupid, I will not work for you. I'd be better off unemployed. I found another job 2 weeks later, for more than their second offer. And those people didn't play games.
imagist 10y ago
I'll add this to the list of reasons why recruiters' incentives are in direct competition with yours--and why you should not use a recruiter.
cbsmith 10y ago
When I started working, most of the veterans I worked with offered the same advice about never accepting counters. I now offer that same advice to junior folks. I don't think you have to be a recruiter to recognize there is a problem.

jsmthrowaway 10y ago
> Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult, If they do, flee. Business is business and if people are getting offended about business, something is wrong.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Easy to say, but not how it works in the real world. If you walk in to your boss's office and accuse him of underpaying you, he's going to feel hurt. That's the natural reaction. Telling him "business is business" is not likely to improve his feelings. Business would be better named "pampering giant babies", because that's what it is. Despite the mythology that we're programmed with, most of the work of being in charge is managing peoples' feelings so that they stay favorable to you. There is a ton of room for mistakes as long as everyone likes you, and very little if nobody does. Thus, the whole of business training can be summarized with "be as popular and well-liked as possible". They try to dress it up fancy and act like they do something better than that, but they don't. The most important thing in anyone's career is what their boss and their boss's bosses think of them. Only slightly less important is what their peers think of them. Work performance is essentially a non-factor in career advancement, so it actually is really important to manage this kind of thing carefully. Asking directly for a raise is confrontational and inelegant. Subtly demonstrating that you deserve a raise and making your boss believe it was his idea is how you actually get one without alienating anyone. That's a lot of work, so most people just jump to another employer instead.
  - kobigurk 10y ago
    I don think it applies to all levels of employment. As a software developer in a team, with a junior manager, you have a lesser ability to do this demonstration. The junior manager doesn't decide your salary anyway, and this feedback loop of 2-3 hops takes too long.
  - eloisant 10y ago
    That's because they way you ask for a raise is not by "accusing him of underpaying you", and saying "business is business", there are nicer ways to bring it. You don't have to be confrontational and inelegant. Typically, you wait for your yearly or quaterly review, tell him what great stuff you did for the company, how you will contribute again in the future then tell him you feel like a raise of x percent or n dollars would be appropriate. You don't say "you're underpaying me", but "the value I bring to the company increased, so I deserve more than I did last year" I've never seen a boss get offended for it, at worst he'll make excuses like "sorry I can't right now, but at soon as things get better I'll think about you". And nowadays in many companies, if you never ask for a raise you never get any. Your boss assumes you're happy with your pay, so why give more?
    - cookiecaper 10y ago
      Yeah, annual employee reviews are undoubtedly the sanctioned time to bring it up. The boss won't be offended if you wait until then because they're expecting your compensation to be a point of discussion in that meeting anyway. However, you'll find that since they're expecting it, they have their hand-wavey excuses ready and won't take the request seriously. I'm sure a lot of people "ask for raises" in those routine reviews. So if you do sit on your hands for 11 months so that you only ask your boss at the time when he won't find it offensive, you're still most likely going to walk away with nothing or a pittance, since as I said, bossess appear to believe any raise in excess of 5% is outrageous (again, a large bump is like an admission that they're cheapskates, so they don't like doing it). On the other hand, most programmers can go out and get a new job offer within 2-4 weeks, and unless they're at the top of the pay scale for their industry and area, probably get a 20-40% pay bump. Which option is more attractive?
  - jsmthrowaway 10y ago
    I assure you that you're frighteningly wrong about everything here and that your own personal insecurities are reinforcing a flawed opinion about how business works. I'm not sure how to communicate that to you, though. I'm genuinely at a loss about how to explain that your comment is extremely bad advice and is the type of outlook that most people who can't assert themselves develop. The most important thing in anything, not just business, is not what people think of you. The whole purpose of your employment is to exchange your value for their value; why would feelings get involved if you recalculate your own value? You're asking poorly if people get offended, or the person you're asking does a poor job of separating emotion and business (literally step one of succeeding in business). Do you really think Tim Cook gets up before sunrise to manage his SVPs' feelings? Your observations about what business actually is speak more to you than they do "the real world"; speaking of, since your opening retort was a slightly condescending explanation of that real world which I assure you I live in as well, I suspect the problem with your outlook reflects on you. But I don't mean that to belittle you. Just that perhaps the outcomes you experience come from how you approach things and not a firm understanding of business. Might be worth some introspection here. Maybe I'm totally wrong but if I am, a whole lot of people who aren't you are too.
    - cookiecaper 10y ago
      >Do you really think Tim Cook gets up before sunrise to manage his SVPs' feelings? Partially. His primary job is managing investor's feelings. >Maybe I'm totally wrong but if I am, a whole lot of people who aren't you are too. You believe the version of the world that they want you to believe, not the world as it is. That's understandable. The powers-that-be project this narrative specifically because if people know their job is to manipulate feelings, it'll be much more difficult to do that effectively. Good managers want to make themselves sound like self-sacrificial superheroes and inspire hero worship so that it's easier to manage the subordinate's feelings. That's the narrative they project. However, it doesn't take an intelligent person much reading or experience to realize that things don't line up with the narrative. Management is all about managing feelings. Yes, it's true that management has to make decisions that won't bankrupt the company, but that's the easy, minor part. The difficult part is pushing those decisions through the organization with as little feeling-damage as possible, and running programs of feeling-grooming to keep your employees cooperative.
Clubber 10y ago
>your employer is given cause to question your loyalty and may be more suspicious of your contributions moving forward. This sentiment has been expressed by MS CEO Satya Nadella and I'm sure it's popular in other management circles. Haven't they laid off around 20,000 people in the past few years? Seems like MS as a company wants to have it both ways, as I'm sure many do.
jsprogrammer 10y ago
Most employment contracts do not consider loyalty. Typically, either side has the explicit right to terminate the relationship at any time, for any reason.

fecak 10y ago

This is actually part of the recruiter's script when trying to overcome a candidate accepting a counteroffer. I think the line I was taught was "you only got a raise because you held a gun to their head". This isn't a line I would use, just telling you what recruiters are trained to say.

ryandrake 10y ago
It's true though, isn't it? Another thing to consider: "Will you have to hold a gun to their head every year?" Interviewing is a pain, and I wouldn't want to have be doing it continuously in order to keep myself at market rate. Let's say (conservatively) you need to interview at an average of 20 companies to get an offer, and that it takes an average of 4 days to prep, conduct each interview, and follow-up. That's 80 days of your life each year just to stay on the treadmill. I've been in situations where I use all of my year's vacation days interviewing at other companies. It's not fun.
- galdosdi 10y ago
  (1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) (2) If you're applying to similar jobs (in terms of skill) then a single amount of prep can be shared among many I know many who try to "get in the market" every year or so just for "curiosity"
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    > (1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) Not everybody lives in a major hub, and for those who don't it can be really hard to get a company in one to notice you exist, let alone make you an offer.
    - amyjess 10y ago
      Thank you. I've noticed your username come up a lot in these kinds of threads, and you're one of the only people I've seen whose experiences matched mine. Job-hunting in Dallas is hard. I've been unemployed twice. The first time was long-term (to the point where it was affecting my sanity) and during the Great Recession. The second time, which was earlier this year, wasn't that long but still harrowing. After I got laid off, it was two months before I got an in-person interview. I got the job, but I'm fairly sure that a good part of the reason I was even considered for an interview was because one of my best friends works here and put in a good word for me with HR. Also, on at least three occasions I've tried job-hunting while employed. Only one time did I actually find a new job before giving up.
  - jsmthrowaway 10y ago
    > I know many who try to "get in the market" every year or so just for "curiosity" There is absolutely no reason not to. One might argue this is essential -- how can you know "market" if you don't study the market?
- fecak 10y ago
  Counteroffer as a tool to get a raise is only useful once per employer, in most cases. The second time you try to leverage a counter for a raise, you're much more likely to get shown the door unless you were underpaid.
- robrenaud 10y ago
  Maybe it's better to spend several weekends to read algorithms books and practice topcoder, and then you'll need to interview at something like 1.5 companies before you get an offer.

not_kurt_godel 10y ago
I'm sure many people would be interested to learn more details about your current gig. How much are you making now? How did you get clients initially? What sorts of development do you do now?
- ams6110 10y ago
  >How did you get clients initially? He said it, contacts and social skills. One other way is referrals but you generally need to have a few clients before that starts happening.
  - ryandrake 10y ago
    > "contacts and social skills" I'm curious too, because that's what everyone says, but they stop there. It's always: 1. Have contacts and social skills 2. ??? 3. Make 6X as a freelancer! Let's say I'm starting with contacts and social skills. And a mortgage and a full-time job that lets me pay it. Any good books or blog posts that describe what's in step 2?
    - morgante 10y ago
      Just keep in contact with your network and make sure they're aware that you're freelancing and what sort of projects you do. I know it sounds simplistic, but the hard part is building a network. Once you have it, they do most of the work for you, especially if you keep them abreast and happy (ex. reciprocal referrals).
    - OvidNaso 10y ago
      The reason it always seems to stop at step one is because the experience feels like a natural consequence of those two factors. A step two would be something like "exercise those social skills with your contacts" and that seems redundant. 'social skills' encompasses discussing professional situations and (unfortunately or not) being a person your 'contacts' are attracted to and comfortable with extending opportunity to.
    - Nursie 10y ago
      (I'm a contractor, not a freelancer) Step 2 - make sure you have enough money put away to last for at least six months with no work. Step 2.5 - put some stuff on github, publish your cv, prepare to talk to and turn down an absolute ton of agents who will try to talk you into totally inappropriate work. Step 2.75 - find a decent project to join, work your ass off getting up to speed and contributing fast. Build a reputation. Step 3.1 - goto 1 The agent thing is a constant in contracting. They'll tell you "you're dreaming, you'll never find the money you're asking". They'll tell you "you need to be able to move around the country for work". They'll tell you "there's nothig contract based around anywhere right now, you need to look at my permanent roles". Some will even tell you you're awesome amd perfect, and then you'll never hear from them again. But then a good one eventually comes along.... and gets you a well paying contract in a broken team doing something pointless. But hey, the money's good and you're only there for a few months so what does it matter?
donretag 10y ago
Out of curiosity, do you work remotely, locally or travel? I have considered consulting, but the local market outside of the Bay Area would be limiting.
- DominikR 10y ago
  I do not want to give away too much personal information but I mostly work remotely. (I meet with my clients once every 2 months or so) The only exceptions are heavily regulated corporations like banks that require everyone to work from within their office for security reasons. (to prevent information leaks)
  - wtracy 10y ago
    A question for any consultants who work 100% remotely: how do you compete with workers in countries with extremely low costs of living?
    - dsacco 10y ago
      I work remotely. It's very simple - you position yourself and your skillset in such a way that you cannot be commoditized. There are two essential skills required to manage your own freelancing or consulting practice. The first is the core competency for which you bill (software development, sales conversions, security auditing, etc.). The second is the ability to inspire confidence in your clients that you are capable of using that competency to solve a business problem. Perception matters a great deal in business relationships and framing yourself as an equal who will leverage a unique mix of skills to contribute value is very important. 'patio11 has spoken about this a lot, and his writings helped me get to ~$300k per year as a consultant.
      - patio11 10y ago
        High five!
    - dboreham 10y ago
      To be honest I've never been in a situation where there was any such competition. I'm sure it happens on the margins but when you factor in time zone inconvenience, language and cultural barriers it isn't so easy to commoditize consulting. Also good people from anywhere in the world tend to migrate to a few places where this work is done. They don't always stay hanging out somewhere cheap. And good people aren't cheap even if they live in a low cost location. The market price for such people is driven by demanding vs supply rather than the cost of their apartment.
deleted 10y ago
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FT_intern 10y ago
How does freelancing income compare to working as a senior engineer at a big corp ($300k total comp if you include bonuses, benefits and subsidized health insurance)?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- StephenConnell 10y ago
  Your personal time is worth more than any number of $$$. You can't buy back your time after you've traded it for cash. Make sure you enjoy life while you have it. Edit: My point is that freelance work income may not compare, but the income may not be the reason for moving to freelance. The op did not explain why he moved to freelance, but I can think of some great reasons to do so.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    As a senior engineer at a big corp, I feel like I have lot more free time available to me than if I were a freelancer. I don't have to worry about business details, contracts, hell, really even deadlines. In order to contract out for a comparable amount of money I think I'd have to spend a lot more time and deal with a lot more stress. Plus, you don't get paid vacation as a freelancer, whereas I get as much paid vacation as I'm apt to use.
    - saiya-jin 10y ago
      vacations, one of the worst parts of freelancing - it's not the price of it (usually flight tickets + some cash on the spot, all manageable), but the income lost while having fun that hurts bad. combine it with some mortgage, and self-pressure to just work leaves you missing some nice experiences in life (while having some extra cash too)
      - CydeWeys 10y ago
        Yeah, I'll be honest, I'm not the best at taking vacations. I've never used all my vacation time at any of my jobs, and have always gotten paid out handsomely for the excess upon leaving. Of course, once I actually do get out on a vacation, I inevitably enjoy it, but there's so much inertia in planning one that I do it infrequently. It really is a big hassle. If I didn't have paid vacation days, I doubt that I'd ever take one. They'd simply be way too expensive. It's one thing to use paid vacation days, another thing entirely to give up over a week's worth of income. I don't think I could do it.

morsch 10y ago

[H]ow I would never work in this town again I can see where the arguments about trust etc are coming from (not that I necessarily agree), but that one I don't get at all.

byoung2 10y ago
She said that neither she nor anyone else at her recruiting firm would work with me ever again, which lasted about a year before they started emailing me job listings again. Be prepared if you accept a counteroffer after working with a recruiter, they will definitely hold it against you (that fee is 20% of your first year salary or more), plus it makes them look bad to the company they're working for.
- dahauns 10y ago
  Whoa...so she basically tried to blackmail you into declining the counteroffer? What the hell?
- amyjess 10y ago
  > She said that neither she nor anyone else at her recruiting firm would work with me ever again If she actually thought that was tantamount to "you'll never work in this town again", she needs a reality check. Oh, this one recruiter firm won't work with me, whatever will I do? I've worked at four different companies. In order, I got those jobs through Craigslist (2007), Monster (2012), Indeed (2014), and a friend referral (2016). None of them involved recruiters. Also, during the times I've been looking, I talked to a very large number of recruiters. If one of them blackballed me, it wouldn't affect me because I talked to so many other recruiting firms, and even then I ended up getting all my jobs without them.
  - fecak 10y ago
    If one recruiting firm won't represent you as a candidate, it's no loss, as there are thousands more that will - and recruiting firms aren't comparing notes with other firms on who took a counteroffer. It's a threat that is totally unrealistic. As a recruiter, I'd actually say that technologists are more likely to be able to damage a recruiter's career than the other way around. If word gets out about a recruiter not behaving properly, that word can travel much faster in the worker space than word travels in the recruiter space.
cwilkes 10y ago
I believe that's a tongue in cheek reference to the movie industry in Hollywood where this is (was?) a common phrase.

fidget 10y ago

> my ace in the hole was an unsecured network share drive where I found an offer letter for a coworker showing he made $135k. Eww

byoung2 10y ago
I agree on many levels...the coworker was an idiot and a project manager, not an engineer, but had an MBA, which likely appealed to the founders, who were both "business guys". Also, it was silly to have sensitive info on a shared drive where anyone could see it. It was probably less than ethical for me to use that info in negotiations, but it couldn't be unseen.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  I don't think it was unethical. In fact, finding out there is a salary disparity between peers is probably one of the most common ways that large salary raises occur. For that reason, and also because that disparity may result in legal liability if the peers have differing demographic profiles, some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee.
  - signa11 10y ago
    > ... some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee. after this, i was wondering if there is a way to get the average salary of a group without revealing / knowing actual numbers ? edit-001: ok, one thing that i can think of: 1. take a big number, and add your salary to it. this becomes the 'token' for the next guy. 2. he adds his salary to the number. etc. etc. once you have the final number, remove the original number, and divide by number of folks. since this scheme appears to be so trivial, i am now wondering what i did wrong ?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - bzbarsky 10y ago
      What threat model are you defending against? Because the people at positions N and N+2 in your scheme can collude to determine the salary of the person at position N+1 without even having to reveal their own salaries in the process...
      - signa11 10y ago
        > What threat model are you defending against? umm, not really trying to prevent from folks actively sabotage the whole thing, but just seeing if it actually works i.e gives the correct average salary... but yes, as you have pointed out, people at N and N+2 can collude to get the original salary (for N+1).
        graywh 10y ago
        Have a third party generate a set of tokens, one per person, recording only their sum, and randomly distribute them to the group. Then you don't need to pass the cumulative sum from person to person. Edit: I guess it doesn't even have to be a third party as long as everyone trusts the randomization (e.g., pulling identical pieces of folded paper from a hat).
        signa11 10y ago
        > Have a third party generate a set of tokens, one per person, recording only their sum, and randomly distribute them to the group oooh :) this is pretty cool. thank you !
        kabouseng 10y ago
        Yes but you still need to trust the central authority then, meaning one person will know everyone's salary (he who generates all the tokens). If you really want a cryptographic secure process, the key word to begin your journey would be "secure multiparty computation", and a very appropriate example in the book modern cryptography[1]: [1] https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/soco/projects/2004-05/cryptography/smc.html https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/soco/project... Basically your first solution but encrypt the communication between parties to prevent the n+1 - n attack. edit - Only say infinite8s reply now, which is almost verbatim my reply including the same link.
    - infinite8s 10y ago
      There is a cryptographic subfield called secure multiparty computation that lets you compute something like this (an average where nobody finds out the inputs of others) - https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/soco/projects/2004-05/cryptography/smc.html https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/soco/project...
  - JoshTriplett 10y ago
    > some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee. In many jurisdictions, this is illegal.
    - Amezarak 10y ago
      It is illegal everywhere in the US. Talking about compensation is protected by the National Labor Relations Act.
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      When has something being illegal stopped a company from doing something that could save and/or make it more money?
      - lukewink 10y ago
        When the penalty of a lawsuit outweighs the money gained from such an action.
        st3v3r 10y ago
        You're forgetting the likelihood that such a lawsuit will be brought. Which isn't very high.

donretag 10y ago

I once was searching for a file locally (Windows) and my search ended up searching the shared drive of my company, which contained a zip file. Inside this zip file were excel spreadsheets containing the salaries of all employees (around 50 IIRC). The instructions from the CEO were to limit raises due to the economic conditions at the time (very true). Apparently the tech manager was not as good fighting for us, since our department (4-6?) averaged the lowest raises. The departments with managers better at negotiating got average raises that were higher than the CEO's policies.

WhitneyLand 10y ago
This is one of the many benefits to working for a high performing manager. They will have more clout to argue on your behalf for raises and promotions. Not to mention it's easier to grow around higher caliber people.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  Some of the best advice I've ever gotten, and I'm so glad I followed it, is to ignore details like what the product is entirely, and pick the team to join solely based on the manager. It's worked out very well. There was a survey I remember reading earlier this year about how the single biggest factor causing dissatisfaction at work is having a bad boss.
  - quantumhobbit 10y ago
    How do you identify a good manager? I ask because I've had both good and bad but no indication of which is which at the beginning. Some seemed super engaged when interviewing but disappeared once I started working.
    - pm90 10y ago
      Its much easier if its within the same org, of course, but even in another company, you can possibly talk to the people who will work with you under the same manager and ask them. Unfortunately, there isn't any surefire way of knowing whether you will work under a good manager, just as there is no surefire way for the company to know you will be a stellar employee. Personally, what I look for the most is honesty. Even if the product/company is crap, if the people working on it are honest about their current state and where they want to be in the future, I find that much more interesting than a well-known established company whose manager is just OK.
    - CydeWeys 10y ago
      I had a thirty minute chat with each potential manager during the hiring process, and I went with the one that I felt I had the best rapport with. It turns out that the initial impression was correct. Now of course this is far from foolproof, but oftentimes you can learn a lot about someone from just a thirty minute chat (and asking the right questions).
      - softawre 10y ago
        So...what do you think are the right questions?
        CydeWeys 10y ago
        It depends on what you value most in a working relationship. What I want in a boss isn't necessarily what you want in a boss. General questions that might apply to most people would include things like "What kind of working hours do people on your team keep", "How do you help build the careers of people on your team", "Why did you choose this project and what do you find exciting about it", "If you were to start this project all over again knowing what you know now, what decisions would you make differently", "How are relations between the tech side of the team and the business/product side of the team", "Why should I join your team in particular", "How well do the members of the team get along and what does a typical day look like -- do people sit together and chat frequently? Not interact in person much?". You see where I'm going with this.
        shshhdhs 10y ago
        Is this a consulting role like Accenture? (Asking because not all companies let managers choose their projects?)
  - cema 10y ago
    pick the team to join solely based on the manager My experience too. Of course there are other factors, but this is (arguably) the most important factor of all; the rest are just constraints, and this is like the objective function.
- JorgeGT 10y ago
  Another advantage is that they are confident of their position and do not feel the need to put you down / downplay your achievements.

charlesdm 10y ago

Out of interest, why didn't you counter the counteroffer at $140k? Realistically, you could've probably gotten $150-155k on the spot, right there. They basically just showed their hand telling they want/need you to stay.

kardashian007 10y ago
Exactly. It's possible to make many tens of thousands more in mere seconds if couched right in those situations.
- byoung2 10y ago
  I am quite good at negotiating raises, and I know when I can push and when to hold back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12122526 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12122526
  - dlhavema 10y ago
    i definitely am not. that is one skill i hope to learn before i move on. Granted, i'm pretty happy where i'm at right now, but it could useful in the future...
    - fecak 10y ago
      One helpful tip - if you're not good at it, try to avoid doing it in real-time. Negotiating via email is much easier for beginners. In face-to-face communications, those not accustomed to negotiating will often give in just based on misread cues. For example, if someone asks how much you want, and you say a number, stop talking until you get a response. Many beginner negotiators will interpret silence as disagreement (even a short amount of silence) and quickly add "but that number is negotiable". I have this happen all the time when I'm doing profiles of new candidates, particularly when they are junior. They say "I"m looking for 60K, but I am willing to negotiate". I usually respond by telling them they have already backtracked before receiving any objections. Practice or get some coaching, and until that time, try to do it via email.
byoung2 10y ago
$117k to $140k with perks sounded like a win at the time and I didn't want to push my luck. I really wanted to stay at that point so it was a calculated move to not look too greedy. A year later when I was promoted to director (and raised to $155k + potential $25k bonus) I got to see all salaries (and histories) in the department, and $140k made me the highest paid engineer at that point, so it was a good move. 3 months later after a management shakeup, I negotiated to have the part of that $25k bonus that was in my power ($5k was dependent on hitting sales projections) converted to salary, hence the raise to $175k.
cookiecaper 10y ago
I don't know that it really works that way. At least in my experience, salaries are not generally set by an individual, but require multiple approvals. If they had a prepared counteroffer for $140k, it's not likely that he could've just gotten under the manager's skin and had it amped up to 160k without requiring the manager to go back through the approval process.
- angelbob 10y ago
  If they've prepared a counter at $140, there's a decent chance they're (quietly) allowed to haggle up to some larger number, say between $145 and $160 depending on how much they want you and how much they expect you to negotiate. They won't tell you what this higher number is under any normal circumstances, and may lie about it, but it probably exists.
  - softawre 10y ago
    Depends on the company of course. Big company, the exact number was probably pre-approved (that's how it happens here).
    - charlesdm 10y ago
      In a big company, the amount matters even less. 140k? 150k? 180k? Nobody cares, it's a number on a spreadsheet.
- eloisant 10y ago
  It depends on the size of the organization. If it's small you just have the CEO/founder who decides everyone's salary, if it's a big bigger you have a manager with a margin of negociation but can always get a signoff for a bigger raise by the CEO, and when it gets really big there is a hard grid with categories, ranks within the categories, lower bounds and upper bounds.

technofiend 10y ago

I worked at a savings and loan back during the 1988/1989 crisis that took them out and we were no different. Hired as a 'C' programmer I was quickly turned into a Sybase DBA, sys-admin and anything else I could handle. In fact I ended up writing an in-house payroll system so like you I had inside information. When the sys-admin left I asked for a raise since I was doing his job and my own. They made some excuses about his better education (he was a few hours away from his PhD in music) and the fact the company was under FDIC control. I found a new job at a local oil company but contracting: my new salary was more than double what the bank laid. My bosses exact words when I quit were "Oh, shit" because he knew all along he'd been screwing me and he was never going to get a programmer/DBA/UNIX sys-admin for $27k/yr. He asked if he could make a counter offer it was with great satisfaction I was able to reply "Vick, I now make more than you do. What's your counter offer?"

co_dh 10y ago
This line makes my day: "Vick, I now make more than you do. What's your counter offer?"
engi_nerd 10y ago
Oh, the joys of sticking it to a particularly evil boss. I got this exact same satisfaction when I left my job working on sounding rockets. The boss was a micromanager who was eventually demoted (and then left the company) after I left, because he had driven away more than half his department. Two days before I left, he had been threatening, in a roundabout way, to fire me. But when I handed in my resignation letter, he was eager to keep me and asked what it would take to keep me. I named the salary my next job was offering. "You'll make more than I do now!" he said.
lucaspiller 10y ago
I had a similar experience. I was brought on as a junior fresh out of university and quickly made a name for myself in the company, I wasn't the top developer by any means, but after a few years and a couple of pay rises, the £32k/year they were paying me (in central London) was definitely much lower than what I should have been getting. One of my colleagues had the year before, and had recently got funding for his startup. He offered myself and another developer a job, so we went to tell our boss together who obviously wasn't too pleased. He then spoke to us separately about negotiations, and he offered me £55k/year. The look on his face when I said "Sorry, but they are offering me much more than that" was priceless. A few years later (after all the team I'd worked with had left) I went back to what was left of the company as a contractor for a few months. I was earning more per week, than I was per month, when I first started.

manyxcxi 10y ago

I was hired as a Software Architect at one company and after about a year and a half on the job we were without a CTO and nobody over my direct manager, who essentially managed the team internally (very well) but wasn't the public persona that I was within the company. Being an agency we needed a lot of internal self promotion as a team, as well as making our sales team aware of what we were capable of and doing that they may not know, as well as being part of pitches that were more technical than average. I drafted a new role that formalized all those things I had been doing and some, suggested a meager salary bump (like 5-7% when year over year bumps were between 3-5). My manager was on board, but getting leadership buy in besides "that's a great idea" languished for months. I finally got an offer from a different company that offered all that and more, at a large salary bump (over 25%), large bonuses, options, and a number of other perks just not available to my privately held 200 person company. The huge problem with the new role was at least 30% travel (which means more like 60) and I had a baby and a baby on the way. I offered my resignation and they begged for 24 hours to put together a counter. Their counter was a blanket okay of my plan, with a twist. I went from Architect to Director and became my boss' boss. They couldn't quite match the salary "because that would make me the highest paid employee at the company" but offered some creative ways to make bonuses to cover the gap. I always preached the 'never accept a counter' theory, but I'd liked working at this company more than anywhere else and the thought of traveling that much (I used to travel a lot before) was awful sounding. I accepted and was gone 16 months later- so I made it! Honestly though, as much as I loved the work and the creativity we didn't have the time to really get deep into interesting tech. If we did, it was skunkworks projects (I started the skunkworks lab with beer and pizza) that meant working before and after hours and weekends to ever get a concept done. I didn't leave for just any other company though, I went and started my own. I'm glad I accepted that counter, I never would've had the chance to take my current leap if I had left for the other company. I've semi-changed my stance now. If you trust your team and leadership, and trust that you are going to be given the power to affect the changes you were looking for that had you looking to leave- then accept the counter. If it's the same ol' same ol' but you have a higher salary, you will wind up leaving sooner rather than later.